RE: Toyota GT-86 Convertible: Revealed (sort of)

[kambites]

300bhp/ton said:

kambites said:

Isn't it the standard 2.0?

I certainly don't believe a standard 2.0 MX5 will even get close to 6 seconds.

Then how did they do it?

Fettled car? Non-standard tyres? Very sticky road surface? There are lots of ways to make a car go faster.

As you say, 0-60 is a lot about traction, and the MX5 doesn't have very much.

[Falling Down]

That looks absolutely ace. Is this the spiritual successor to the MR2?

[kambites]

Falling Down said:

That looks absolutely ace. Is this the spiritual successor to the MR2?

Somewhere between the MR2 and the Celica, I suppose.

[300bhp/ton]

hornetrider said:

Explain how they got 6.1 out of an MX5. I owned that MX5. It is not a 6.1 car. Fact.

0-60mph is all about grip and traction and actually fairly little about outright hp. 20-100mph or 1/4 trap speeds are about HP.

As said, a 118bhp Elise with a very similar power to weight ratio as the MX-5 has been clocked at 5.5-5.9sec 0-60mph. Why is it so unbelievable that 6.1 can't be done from the Mazda?

Remember many powerful cars are traction limited, so their 0-60mph times suffer, despite the fact they may be far faster 20-100mph than a car posting similar 0-60mph stats.

[anything fast]

I used to get 0-60 in 6 seconds in my 1.3 astra

[Ecosseven]

300bhp/ton said:

kambites said:

Isn't it the standard 2.0?

I certainly don't believe a standard 2.0 MX5 will even get close to 6 seconds.

Then how did they do it?

I admit I don't know if that includes or excludes rollout or not. And I suspect being Yanks they'd have been power shifting (something most UK mags don't do).

But 0-60mph is about grip off the line.

The article says 167hp and 1128kg (although I guess it could be a ringer).

Something like an old MGB V8 had only 137hp (on a very good day) and weighed 1084kg. Yet even on crappy narrow tyres was a mid 7's to 60mph car.

So pretty similar weight, 30hp more and a lot more grip. I can certainly believe it easily being 1 second quicker than the old MG to 60mph. On this premise 6.1 while quite amazing, doesn't seem quite so unobtainable.


Also isn't the MX-5 making around 148bhp/tonne. An early S1 Elise is only 156bhp/tonne, so pretty similar and plenty of places claimed high 5.x 0-60mph times for them. (Carfolio says 5.5 http://www.carfolio.com/specifications/models/car/...

So assuming you could attain similar traction/grip (right surface) then I see no reason why only 8bhp/tonne less wouldn't be in the low 6's.

I drive a MX-5 sport tech roadster coupe. Manufactuers fgures are 160PS (around 158 bhp) and 1248kg which includes a 75kg driver allowance. The quoted 0-62mph is 7.9 seconds. The soft top version is 83kg's lighter and does 0-62mph in 7.6 seconds.

With regards to price you can get a brand new unregistered Sport Tech soft top for around £17.5k. If the GT86 soft top is £30k I think they won't sell many.

[356Speedster]

The first thing I thought when I saw the main pics was: Mitsubishi Eclipse Spyder! That was a very awkward looking car and drove horribly... the '86 Open appears a little odd too, but I can't quite put my finger on why. Maybe they should have just made it a 2-seater, which could have given them better packaging / styling options?

Not that it matters, because at £30K, there's not going to be many of them on the roads, I'd wager.

[soad]

StottyZr said:

That is a very good looking car

Agreed. Should sell a fair few quite easily.

[Kozy]

300bhp/ton said:

Then how did they do it?

I admit I don't know if that includes or excludes rollout or not. And I suspect being Yanks they'd have been power shifting (something most UK mags don't do).

But 0-60mph is about grip off the line.

The article says 167hp and 1128kg (although I guess it could be a ringer).

Something like an old MGB V8 had only 137hp (on a very good day) and weighed 1084kg. Yet even on crappy narrow tyres was a mid 7's to 60mph car.

So pretty similar weight, 30hp more and a lot more grip. I can certainly believe it easily being 1 second quicker than the old MG to 60mph. On this premise 6.1 while quite amazing, doesn't seem quite so unobtainable.


Also isn't the MX-5 making around 148bhp/tonne. An early S1 Elise is only 156bhp/tonne, so pretty similar and plenty of places claimed high 5.x 0-60mph times for them. (Carfolio says 5.5 http://www.carfolio.com/specifications/models/car/...

So assuming you could attain similar traction/grip (right surface) then I see no reason why only 8bhp/tonne less wouldn't be in the low 6's.

You're all missing the biggest clue:

Motortrend said:

The MX-5 Club takes the very-capable roadster package and adds Bilstein shocks, a sport-tuned suspension, a mechanical limited-slip differential, a shock tower brace, and sticky summer rubber

Sticky summer rubber vs Prius tyres. More traction, and that is what 0-60 is about.

[300bhp/ton]

Ecosseven said:

I drive a MX-5 sport tech roadster coupe. Manufactuers fgures are 160PS (around 158 bhp) and 1248kg which includes a 75kg driver allowance. The quoted 0-62mph is 7.9 seconds. The soft top version is 83kg's lighter and does 0-62mph in 7.6 seconds.

With regards to price you can get a brand new unregistered Sport Tech soft top for around £17.5k. If the GT86 soft top is £30k I think they won't sell many.

The US one seems to be more powerful, 167hp vs 158hp. Wonder if the low end torque varies too. Also seems to be slightly lighter and according to the point kozy picked up on, has a LSD and sticky tyres.

If it wasn't deep into the 6's 0-60mph then something would be wrong.

[Kozy]

anything fast said:

Looks very nice, but when will Toyota learn? They seem to be shifting very few of the hardtop and I think I know the reason. Its too slow, too cheap and not great on the inside.

For the love of god, please can they bolt on a Turbo, get it up to 250 HP, add £5000 to the price and have a range of models... They should have made it like that in the 1st place and order books would be fatter.. then they should have introduced the N/A version after for those on a tighter budget. A quick Turbo version would have cast a halo round the model.

Ah, there it is, I thought it was missing. Are you in the market for a new car? Could you afford one of these anyway? If so, why not slap a supercharger on it yourself. That's kind of the point of it.

anything fast said:

Instead this is the car everyone likes and agrees its a good car, but why are they not buying? Well for the same money you have great choice of much faster hot hatchbacks and there is just not a big enough market for RWD purists who will sacrifice power just for a little bit of tail out fun!

Definitely a troll.

[hornetrider]

300bhp/ton said:

0-60mph is all about grip and traction and actually fairly little about outright hp. 20-100mph or 1/4 trap speeds are about HP.

As said, a 118bhp Elise with a very similar power to weight ratio as the MX-5 has been clocked at 5.5-5.9sec 0-60mph. Why is it so unbelievable that 6.1 can't be done from the Mazda?

Remember many powerful cars are traction limited, so their 0-60mph times suffer, despite the fact they may be far faster 20-100mph than a car posting similar 0-60mph stats.

Which bit of I OWNED ONE did you not understand?

[Kozy]

hornetrider said:

Which bit of I OWNED ONE did you not understand?

Did you accurately time the 0-60 sprint?

[MC Bodge]

300bhp/ton said:

PEAK torque is simply the highest torque output in the rev range, this has ZERO bearing on how much torque it makes elsewhere in the rev range.



I admit it does seem to do some weirdness in the mid range (likely due to how they are extracting such high output from it).

But the low end torque is as strong as the PEAK torque pretty much. If the after marker could solve that big dip in the mid range it'd be pretty beefy.

Indeed. The relationship between torque and power are, as usual, misunderstood by most people.



The engine has managed to pass the various tests required at the present time and still produce power comparable with a Honda Civic VTEC, with a reasonably flat torque curve, without forced induction. Good engineering, non?

I'm assuming that the 'dip' is engineered-in for the purposes of emissions testing. Bikes often have something similar, which can be rectified with a Power Commander.

[300bhp/ton]

hornetrider said:

Which bit of I OWNED ONE did you not understand?

I understand that you owned a car with less hp, more weight and likely a different diff and tyres. I also suspect that a) you didn't actively try 0-60mph times in it and b) are misunderstanding or ignoring the physics of the situation.

[Kozy]

MC Bodge said:

The engine has managed to pass the various tests required at the present time and still produce power comparable with a Honda Civic VTEC, with a reasonably flat torque curve, without forced induction. Good engineering, non?

It is impressive, however are they not using something like 12:1 compression on this engine? They can then spec the cams for decent top end without losing torque down low...

One thing I would have absolutely loved to have seen on this car was Toyota's VVTLi system. It would have been perfect with that.

[hornetrider]

300bhp/ton said:

I understand that you owned a car with less hp, more weight and likely a different diff and tyres. I also suspect that a) you didn't actively try 0-60mph times in it and b) are misunderstanding or ignoring the physics of the situation.

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.

The US Club is the same mechanical spec as any Special Edition Sport model over here. Same engine, Torsen diff, tyres, the lot. It's just a normal MX5 special edition ie paint job and trim.

Much as I love the MX5 it is not now nor ever will be a 6.1 second car or even close. Ergo I do not believe Motortrends figures for the 5 nor the GT86.

I'm not going to argue with your stupidity any more.

The end.

[MC Bodge]

Kozy said:

MC Bodge said:

The engine has managed to pass the various tests required at the present time and still produce power comparable with a Honda Civic VTEC, with a reasonably flat torque curve, without forced induction. Good engineering, non?

It is impressive, however are they not using something like 12:1 compression on this engine? They can then spec the cams for decent top end without losing torque down low...

One thing I would have absolutely loved to have seen on this car was Toyota's VVTLi system. It would have been perfect with that.

Emmissions requirements for various markets, I assume.

[Kozy]

Well, in the absence of your being able to prove otherwise, 300bhp, myself and I suspect a few others will believe Motortrends figures since they're quoting actual figures based on more than a bum dyno...

[bicycleshorts]

300bhp/ton said:

Gutless??? It's quicker than any production MX-5 ever!

MT also clocked the 86 at 6.2sec 0-60mph and 14.8 @ 94mph over the 1/4 mile. That's pretty much Escort Cosworth pace.

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/1204_20...

The engine also makes as much or more torque than just about any other production 2.0 n/a motor.

It's dangerously underpowered!