RE: The new 911 GT3: PH Blog
Discussion
Read this with interest. I count myself very lucky indeed to own a 3.8 GT3RS which gets a proper thrashing at short circuits and round the 'Ring when I have time. With limited track knowledge / ability and a few life-afirming moments every lap we scrape round in just over 7.30, close to the car's limit and well over my own. The car has visited Manthey more than any OPC and sports more chips than Bridlington after the pubs shut.
I do wonder how much of the 'purist' ethos comes from those who have actually used the cars in anger? Because there is nothing in the new model spec that doesn't make me really interested in it... 7 speed box will tighten up acceleration and should help those bits where 2nd is too short and 3rd is a bit lazy, and paddles make a short-shift possible in places where manual can't be used as both hands are fully engaged in controlling semi-airborne car... 9000rpm sounds great, bit more over-rev between corners where you don't want to shift, and extra power and torque would be very welcome (sounds daft but my car feels a bit "flat" in midrange when you are really pushing on). Ability to disengage clutch is written into pr bumph as opportunity to regain control in wet but I'd say it's more of an opportunity to replace feel of manual clutch and bump the thing sideways into wheelspin at low speeds... as if you would.
Chassis stuff all sounds interesting and are logical developments.
Don't know the author or his history at all but there is always the danger of "the more you know, the slower you go"... the car looks awesome and I'm sure the RS version will look as tacky as ever but will also take the game, and the enjoyment, another few steps forward...
I do wonder how much of the 'purist' ethos comes from those who have actually used the cars in anger? Because there is nothing in the new model spec that doesn't make me really interested in it... 7 speed box will tighten up acceleration and should help those bits where 2nd is too short and 3rd is a bit lazy, and paddles make a short-shift possible in places where manual can't be used as both hands are fully engaged in controlling semi-airborne car... 9000rpm sounds great, bit more over-rev between corners where you don't want to shift, and extra power and torque would be very welcome (sounds daft but my car feels a bit "flat" in midrange when you are really pushing on). Ability to disengage clutch is written into pr bumph as opportunity to regain control in wet but I'd say it's more of an opportunity to replace feel of manual clutch and bump the thing sideways into wheelspin at low speeds... as if you would.
Chassis stuff all sounds interesting and are logical developments.
Don't know the author or his history at all but there is always the danger of "the more you know, the slower you go"... the car looks awesome and I'm sure the RS version will look as tacky as ever but will also take the game, and the enjoyment, another few steps forward...
anonymous said:
[redacted]
And there it is. 
As for the above, take a look in the mirror. In addition to the pedant banging on far too much about a piece of hardware, you'll see there's a "judgemental so and so" too.
And back on topic . . . .
PDK, in my experience fantastic for driving at ten tenths and hooning and equally excellent around town, but a bit lack lustre in between those two extremes.
Still, as we're talking GT3 here, it's quicker than the manual, so it's obviously the drivers choice
Paul Denning said:
Read this with interest. I count myself very lucky indeed to own a 3.8 GT3RS which gets a proper thrashing at short circuits and round the 'Ring when I have time. With limited track knowledge / ability and a few life-afirming moments every lap we scrape round in just over 7.30, close to the car's limit and well over my own. The car has visited Manthey more than any OPC and sports more chips than Bridlington after the pubs shut.
I do wonder how much of the 'purist' ethos comes from those who have actually used the cars in anger? Because there is nothing in the new model spec that doesn't make me really interested in it... 7 speed box will tighten up acceleration and should help those bits where 2nd is too short and 3rd is a bit lazy, and paddles make a short-shift possible in places where manual can't be used as both hands are fully engaged in controlling semi-airborne car... 9000rpm sounds great, bit more over-rev between corners where you don't want to shift, and extra power and torque would be very welcome (sounds daft but my car feels a bit "flat" in midrange when you are really pushing on). Ability to disengage clutch is written into pr bumph as opportunity to regain control in wet but I'd say it's more of an opportunity to replace feel of manual clutch and bump the thing sideways into wheelspin at low speeds... as if you would.
Chassis stuff all sounds interesting and are logical developments.
Don't know the author or his history at all but there is always the danger of "the more you know, the slower you go"... the car looks awesome and I'm sure the RS version will look as tacky as ever but will also take the game, and the enjoyment, another few steps forward...
How do you feel about the 4WS?I do wonder how much of the 'purist' ethos comes from those who have actually used the cars in anger? Because there is nothing in the new model spec that doesn't make me really interested in it... 7 speed box will tighten up acceleration and should help those bits where 2nd is too short and 3rd is a bit lazy, and paddles make a short-shift possible in places where manual can't be used as both hands are fully engaged in controlling semi-airborne car... 9000rpm sounds great, bit more over-rev between corners where you don't want to shift, and extra power and torque would be very welcome (sounds daft but my car feels a bit "flat" in midrange when you are really pushing on). Ability to disengage clutch is written into pr bumph as opportunity to regain control in wet but I'd say it's more of an opportunity to replace feel of manual clutch and bump the thing sideways into wheelspin at low speeds... as if you would.
Chassis stuff all sounds interesting and are logical developments.
Don't know the author or his history at all but there is always the danger of "the more you know, the slower you go"... the car looks awesome and I'm sure the RS version will look as tacky as ever but will also take the game, and the enjoyment, another few steps forward...
Paul Denning said:
No idea, obviously never tried it... but if it helps get the car into slow corners more quickly and gets rid of turn-in understeer then all good. Works alright on my John Deere mower anyway.
Nor have I of course, I just can't see how you could have the traction control fully off, the computers will be needed to make the calculations on the angle using speed and slip angle etc...it just seems like more of a "cheat" to me....not that I care either way I just thought this would of annoyed the purists more, I think PDK was inevitable.Thanks for the response.
Andreas Preuninger video with evo has definitely got me very interested in the 991 GT3. It seems that Andreas above all is trying to give the best driver centric experience possible. That engine looks (on paper at least) like a real hoot. I think there will be real drama when it changes from first, to second and then third at 9000rpm in a flat six. It is also implied by Andreas that this maybe used in the cup series and the metzger engine sometimes has quality problems due it low production volume - though hopefully the latter is more down to a production space problem than anything else.
The Pdk, for me would add to the experience on the track and make it a possible daily driver in town or heavy traffic. I do like to toe and heel while heavy braking on race track corners, but would welcome the Pdk experience. As long as I can decide when to change gear and get the over runs Andreas talks about, it adds to the experience, especially if used in sequential like mode. :-)
The other techno stuff such as 4ws, torque vectoring and dynamic engine mounts will hopefully add to the experience rather than make it into a ring slag.
Even the electric steering has had some serious attention to make apparently better than the benchmark 997.
Time will tell - the hacks will show no mercy, and anyway I am pleased that porsche haven't just tweeked and rebadged a 991 s and called it a gt3...
The Pdk, for me would add to the experience on the track and make it a possible daily driver in town or heavy traffic. I do like to toe and heel while heavy braking on race track corners, but would welcome the Pdk experience. As long as I can decide when to change gear and get the over runs Andreas talks about, it adds to the experience, especially if used in sequential like mode. :-)
The other techno stuff such as 4ws, torque vectoring and dynamic engine mounts will hopefully add to the experience rather than make it into a ring slag.
Even the electric steering has had some serious attention to make apparently better than the benchmark 997.
Time will tell - the hacks will show no mercy, and anyway I am pleased that porsche haven't just tweeked and rebadged a 991 s and called it a gt3...
tjlees said:
Time will tell - the hacks will show no mercy, and anyway I am pleased that porsche haven't just tweeked and rebadged a 991 s and called it a gt3...
Funnily enough, that's exactly what some people are saying!It's also interesting that you feel that the numerous electronic devices will 'add to the experience'. How?
As you say, the testers will hopefully reveal the truth as at the moment it's all talk.
mollytherocker said:
tjlees said:
Time will tell - the hacks will show no mercy, and anyway I am pleased that porsche haven't just tweeked and rebadged a 991 s and called it a gt3...
Funnily enough, that's exactly what some people are saying!It's also interesting that you feel that the numerous electronic devices will 'add to the experience'. How?
As you say, the testers will hopefully reveal the truth as at the moment it's all talk.
The two manual cars i drive on track have no driver aids - not even powered steering. Many would argue this how it should be. I remember the first time I drove a warrender evo6 RS on track, it was a complete mind blowing experience with lots of feedback, feel, sliding and fantastic noise. Very different driving experience rather than better or worse. However the latest GTR on track though a hoot, left me cold - it was like being in a ps3 game thrown around on a slippy seat while rolling around the corners. I know the GTR is a legend in its own lifetime and thankfully keeps porsche, Ferrari etc on its toes, but its not for me.
So, I'm happy for the techno to be added - powered steering, abs, 4wd etc
providing its gives me a good almost unforgettable driving experience every time I get in and turn the key. Very subjective I know, but I'm not hung up on getting ultimate involvement requiring manual only, no abs and limited powered steering. Others will disagree - but horses for courses.As for a hot 'hatch' version of 991 s - a new engine, lightened and revised Pdk, revised steering, completely reworked suspension ( removing the need for PDDC), lots of aero revisions etc is a bit more than a run through Halfords backwards IMHO
.tjlees said:
This what Andreas Preuninger is saying - it all about improving the driver experience. There is a bit in the interview where he was ready to reject the 4ws that his team said made a big difference, until he drove it. The techno will definitely improve lap times, as for the improved experience we only have porsche say at the moment.
The two manual cars i drive on track have no driver aids - not even powered steering. Many would argue this how it should be. I remember the first time I drove a warrender evo6 RS on track, it was a complete mind blowing experience with lots of feedback, feel, sliding and fantastic noise. Very different driving experience rather than better or worse. However the latest GTR on track though a hoot, left me cold - it was like being in a ps3 game thrown around on a slippy seat while rolling around the corners. I know the GTR is a legend in its own lifetime and thankfully keeps porsche, Ferrari etc on its toes, but its not for me.
So, I'm happy for the techno to be added - powered steering, abs, 4wd etc providing its gives me a good almost unforgettable driving experience every time I get in and turn the key. Very subjective I know, but I'm not hung up on getting ultimate involvement requiring manual only, no abs and limited powered steering. Others will disagree - but horses for courses.
As for a hot 'hatch' version of 991 s - a new engine, lightened and revised Pdk, revised steering, completely reworked suspension ( removing the need for PDDC), lots of aero revisions etc is a bit more than a run through Halfords backwards IMHO.
A very good post, regardless or whether you agree with it or not. It still has to be a 964 RS or 996 GT3.1 for me, but I see your point.The two manual cars i drive on track have no driver aids - not even powered steering. Many would argue this how it should be. I remember the first time I drove a warrender evo6 RS on track, it was a complete mind blowing experience with lots of feedback, feel, sliding and fantastic noise. Very different driving experience rather than better or worse. However the latest GTR on track though a hoot, left me cold - it was like being in a ps3 game thrown around on a slippy seat while rolling around the corners. I know the GTR is a legend in its own lifetime and thankfully keeps porsche, Ferrari etc on its toes, but its not for me.
So, I'm happy for the techno to be added - powered steering, abs, 4wd etc
providing its gives me a good almost unforgettable driving experience every time I get in and turn the key. Very subjective I know, but I'm not hung up on getting ultimate involvement requiring manual only, no abs and limited powered steering. Others will disagree - but horses for courses.As for a hot 'hatch' version of 991 s - a new engine, lightened and revised Pdk, revised steering, completely reworked suspension ( removing the need for PDDC), lots of aero revisions etc is a bit more than a run through Halfords backwards IMHO
.It's not a new engine though is it. It's an uprated 9a1 with finger rockers.
That's the point. The GT3 has always had the Motorsport GT1 mezger engine and that has now gone, but remains in the race car!!
But, it may prove to be a great engine, it's just that Porsche are not confident enough to drop into the race car yet.
That's the point. The GT3 has always had the Motorsport GT1 mezger engine and that has now gone, but remains in the race car!!
But, it may prove to be a great engine, it's just that Porsche are not confident enough to drop into the race car yet.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
And this is also true. There is alot of marketing and politics involved and as such he is effectively gagged from saying anything other than what he is saying. Im sure he is a fantastic engineer, but he is selling us the car in this video - regardless of the "look, this is really my opinion" bawlocks....Im sure it will be fantastic though, as its predecessors was. Try a 6., .7 and 991. GT3 and see which one fits you.
Your money, your choice!
mollytherocker said:
It's not a new engine though is it. It's an uprated 9a1 with finger rockers.
That's the point. The GT3 has always had the Motorsport GT1 mezger engine and that has now gone, but remains in the race car!!
But, it may prove to be a great engine, it's just that Porsche are not confident enough to drop into the race car yet.
Going by 997 and 996 records, I dont trust their non-mezger engines at all really. They got it wrong twice, odds on making it the third time?That's the point. The GT3 has always had the Motorsport GT1 mezger engine and that has now gone, but remains in the race car!!
But, it may prove to be a great engine, it's just that Porsche are not confident enough to drop into the race car yet.
Time will tell.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Its a classic case of "half-full/half-empty" whether you trust the new engine or not, however its not really debatable they they HAVE struggled to make - mezger-engine aside - the watercooled boxer engine reliable.Have they finally cracked the code? Time will tell, but being a paying guinea pig isnt my idea of fun.
mollytherocker said:
You're right cmoose in that the 9a1 seems to be a huge step forward. So far.
I guess it's just that like many others, for me the GT3s engine has been its heart and soul. What a bloody sound!
But times change and we will see if this new lump will do the business.
That's exactly where I am. I was deeply suspicious of the 991 GT3 and will certainly keep my Mezgers. Yet,the Andreas video was enough tm make me very curious. Obviously I have no way to judge a car I have never seen,let alone driven,but I will be very interested in the road tests and the Sport Auto numbers. I love the Mezger,love it, butit would not be wise to dismiss something before it has a chance. I amy turn out to be utterly wrong about the 991 GT3..and will cheerfully admit my errors if it turns out to be as great as Andreas claims I guess it's just that like many others, for me the GT3s engine has been its heart and soul. What a bloody sound!
But times change and we will see if this new lump will do the business.
Andreas comes across as a genuine bloke in that interview, but you get the feeling that he's pretty much boxed in with the design brief and this is the best he could do within those confines.
You also get the feeling that PDK allows them to have that headline rev-limit of 9k rpm, which they probably won't be able to implement in a manual gearbox car, what with taking in to account those pesky ham fisted humans.
But whatever, ultimately I'm never going to be in a position to buy a GT3 of any sort, so my opinion on the engine or the lack of manual gearbox option is going to be meaningless in the grand scheme of things. Am just a lowly Porsche enthusiast who drives a peasant Porsche.
You also get the feeling that PDK allows them to have that headline rev-limit of 9k rpm, which they probably won't be able to implement in a manual gearbox car, what with taking in to account those pesky ham fisted humans.
But whatever, ultimately I'm never going to be in a position to buy a GT3 of any sort, so my opinion on the engine or the lack of manual gearbox option is going to be meaningless in the grand scheme of things. Am just a lowly Porsche enthusiast who drives a peasant Porsche.
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