RE: The new 911 GT3: PH Blog

[andyp03]

I don’t know why other people buy a GT3, but I know why I did. I don’t know why people buy the Nissan GTR, but I know why I didn’t.

It all boiled down to the depth of engineering in a GT3, a car that was built from the companies racing experience. I would never be able to break it because it was a real track car with carpets in the cabin and number plates. It would easily handle whatever I could do to it because it was built for professional teams and drivers, of which I am neither. In short, it would last far longer and feel much more exciting than anything else I could buy.

For me this is the central issue with the new GT3…it is not a road going 911 racing car for the public, it is a competitor for the GTR and every other car in this segment. I don’t know why this is now the new objective (other than profit margins of course), all I do know is that there are far fewer 997.1 and 2 GT3’s for sale…so I can only surmise that other GT3 owners have looked at the new car and feel the same way?

[George29]

andyp03 said:

For me this is the central issue with the new GT3…it is not a road going 911 racing car for the public, it is a competitor for the GTR and every other car in this segment.

How is it? One is 4WD and turboed... one is RWD and N/A.

The competitor for the GTR is clearly the turbo when that gets released.

[OlberJ]

Begs the question, how long before the GT3 has 4WD?

[OlberJ]

Begs the question, how long before the GT3 has 4WD?

[tjlees]

mollytherocker said:

It's not a new engine though is it. It's an uprated 9a1 with finger rockers.

That's the point. The GT3 has always had the Motorsport GT1 mezger engine and that has now gone, but remains in the race car!!

But, it may prove to be a great engine, it's just that Porsche are not confident enough to drop into the race car yet.

Only the raw crankcase, drive chain, some cylinder bolts and alternator survive from the original 991 s engine, the rest has been replaced, updated or redesigned. I would argue this is a new engine, it's not a tweeked 991 s with a power pack and not really tested in the wild.

But you are right, the engine is virtually unproven, it's not derived from Motorsport or been proven in Motorsport. This also my main concern - what happens in five years time after it's done 50 trackdays? Will the porsche warranty cover it? Probably, but for the owners down the line, it maybe a gamble.

Except for a few isolated incidents the 996/997 metzger tweeked engines have proved reliable on the road, on the track and in Motorsport. I think the current 991 gt3 sales will hit the allocation or 300 units regardless, thereafter secondhand buyers will be very sensitive to reliability, driving experience and involvement. Time will tell....

...but looking forward to the reviews, RS and maybe 4.0 RS. Trick parts and Dfi gives a little more opportunity to stretch the NA flat six torque and power curve.

Loving all the effort Andreas Preuninger and his team have put into the 991 gt3. They could of tweeked the 991 s, left the 7 speed manual, put a wing on the back, thrown in a slightly more powerful metzger engine and called it a gt3 - no one would have argued. Instead, given the space and costs constraints his section are under, and IMHO you seem to get a totally different beast for a premium of around £23k. Could you see the price difference between a db9 and the DBS being this low, for so much?

[Slippydiff]

Slippy said:

Cmoose went on, and on, and, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on,and on, and, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on,and on, and, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on,and on, and, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on,and on, and, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on,and on . . . . . .



and on, and on, and, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on,and on, and, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on,and on, and, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on,and on, and, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on,and on, and, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on,and on . . . . .



and on, and on, and, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on,and on, and, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on,and on, and, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on,and on, and, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on,and on, and, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on,and on . . . .



and on, and on, and, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on,and on, and, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on,and on, and, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on,and on, and, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on,and on, and, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on,and on

Edited by Slippydiff on Wednesday 13th March 09:06

[Dr Z]

Yes, could you stop that please? I'm sure you just Copy/Pasted your on and ons anyway. If you've got nothing to add except your on and ons, its best not to post as scrolling through your on and ons in a phone is more tedious than any of cmoose's posts.

[Kawasicki]

Dagnut said:

Paul Denning said:

No idea, obviously never tried it... but if it helps get the car into slow corners more quickly and gets rid of turn-in understeer then all good. Works alright on my John Deere mower anyway.

Nor have I of course, I just can't see how you could have the traction control fully off, the computers will be needed to make the calculations on the angle using speed and slip angle etc...it just seems like more of a "cheat" to me....not that I care either way I just thought this would of annoyed the purists more, I think PDK was inevitable.

Thanks for the response.

The main purpose of 4 wheel steering is usually to add high speed stability by basically adding understeer (or removing oversteer). If you add steer at the rear axle in the same direction as the front axle you get faster response (you don't have to wait aslong for the rear axle to generate cornering force) and less oversteer. You get less yaw motion at speed and the build up of lateral acceleration is more crisp.

The understeer and oversteer I am talking about is not (only) at the limit. It would be very easy to feel this behaviour at half the peak grip of the tyres.

Anyways, it's a good technical solution to a problem of making a car be both agile and stable, the magic is in the tuning and Porsche are damn good at tuning.

[Dagnut]

Kawasicki said:

The main purpose of 4 wheel steering is usually to add high speed stability by basically adding understeer (or removing oversteer). If you add steer at the rear axle in the same direction as the front axle you get faster response (you don't have to wait aslong for the rear axle to generate cornering force) and less oversteer. You get less yaw motion at speed and the build up of lateral acceleration is more crisp.

The understeer and oversteer I am talking about is not (only) at the limit. It would be very easy to feel this behaviour at half the peak grip of the tyres.

Anyways, it's a good technical solution to a problem of making a car be both agile and stable, the magic is in the tuning and Porsche are damn good at tuning.

I understand that, but the electronics will have to interfere if the slip angle of the wheels changes...it uses an electronic locking diff as well, below 30mph the wheels turn in opposite directions and above 50 they turn in the same direction, so what if you get over steer at those speeds? the computers will have to interfere...I'm sure its a brilliant system and improves low speed turn in and high speed stability, I'm just of the opinion that this is more of an electronic nanny than DPK, it's takes away from the car control at the limit...I am guessing, maybe it doesn't, but I can't see how you could disengage this system

[Kawasicki]

Dagnut said:

Kawasicki said:

The main purpose of 4 wheel steering is usually to add high speed stability by basically adding understeer (or removing oversteer). If you add steer at the rear axle in the same direction as the front axle you get faster response (you don't have to wait aslong for the rear axle to generate cornering force) and less oversteer. You get less yaw motion at speed and the build up of lateral acceleration is more crisp.

The understeer and oversteer I am talking about is not (only) at the limit. It would be very easy to feel this behaviour at half the peak grip of the tyres.

Anyways, it's a good technical solution to a problem of making a car be both agile and stable, the magic is in the tuning and Porsche are damn good at tuning.

I understand that, but the electronics will have to interfere if the slip angle of the wheels changes...it uses an electronic locking diff as well, below 30mph the wheels turn in opposite directions and above 50 they turn in the same direction, so what if you get over steer at those speeds? the computers will have to interfere...I'm sure its a brilliant system and improves low speed turn in and high speed stability, I'm just of the opinion that this is more of an electronic nanny than DPK, it's takes away from the car control at the limit...I am guessing, maybe it doesn't, but I can't see how you could disengage this system

Obviously Porsche can tune it as they please, it would be very easy to disengage the 4ws if they decided that was a good idea. If you get oversteer and you have stability control switched on then the stability control could work with the 4ws to sort it out. If the stability control is switched off then Porsche may have devised a stand alone 4ws strategy to help correct oversteer. They will have devised a good blending strategy between sub limit driving and full stability control oversteer intervention (huge outside front brake apply).

Nobody can tell at this point, and I'm sure Porsche will not leak details of their stategy any time soon. Like you I'm a sceptic of driver aid tech, but I'd wait to drive the car at the limit before being too critical. I trust Porsche.

[Dagnut]

Kawasicki said:

Obviously Porsche can tune it as they please, it would be very easy to disengage the 4ws if they decided that was a good idea. If you get oversteer and you have stability control switched on then the stability control could work with the 4ws to sort it out. If the stability control is switched off then Porsche may have devised a stand alone 4ws strategy to help correct oversteer. They will have devised a good blending strategy between sub limit driving and full stability control oversteer intervention (huge outside front brake apply).

Nobody can tell at this point, and I'm sure Porsche will not leak details of their stategy any time soon. Like you I'm a sceptic of driver aid tech, but I'd wait to drive the car at the limit before being too critical. I trust Porsche.

Driver aids are needed, I know I would need it on a 475bhp RR car..but I would like to know I could turn it off when I wanted to raise the heart rate and challenge myself.
You make a good point, it's all just speculation

[RSVP911]

pistolp said:

Both 997s were way too grippy and capable to be driven in anger on the road, this is even more so but it won't be night and day different in terms of everyday speed. They can only move it on incrementally.

The acceleration gains are largely down to PDK and a few bhp of course. The engine origin doesn't bother me and it shouldn't bother 'racers' either, I don't care where it comes from. I just care that it has character, performance and sounds good. Those that take a lot of pleasure in having a race derived engine are poseurs in my opinion. Not all, but some.

I like the fact that the car now has PDK. The reality is I'm not on track that often in my road cars, so I love the fact that it will now be way more useable. I really like the duality of good paddle shifts. On track the PDK will be sublime, off track the auto function or manual paddle change will be great too. It is of course nice to have a manual option but personally I'm glad we don't as then I'd be agonising over what to have. The purist in me would want the manual, knowing deep down that the PDK is much more versatile better most of the time for most of my moods! I'm glad porsche has decided for me.

I've ordered one, I think it looks fantastic and the spec sounds great. Sure there's less to brag about but that's a good thing, lack of metzger engine etc. For me it is about the driving experience first and foremost. I very much doubt it won't over deliver on that front. If you're desperate for a manual you are spoilt for choice with previous generation GT3. Take your pick, you'll lose less money too, if any.

I really agree with this - good HONEST post - If you take this obsession with evaluation to its extreme we'd still all be riding horses. I think everyone needs to calm down a little , trust Porsche and wait and see. My money is on 95% loving the car once driven - however 95 % will not admit it and then over time these same people will argue why this version is sooo much better than the next. Porsche is a business and a really successful one at that : it can't afford to get these things wrong - simple as that .
Either way I have one on order and I'm more than happy to risk it !

Interesting forum though .

[RSVP911]

RSVP911 said:

I really agree with this - good HONEST post - If you take this obsession with evaluation to its extreme we'd still all be riding horses. I think everyone needs to calm down a little , trust Porsche and wait and see. My money is on 95% loving the car once driven - however 95 % will not admit it and then over time these same people will argue why this version is sooo much better than the next. Porsche is a business and a really successful one at that : it can't afford to get these things wrong - simple as that .
Either way I have one on order and I'm more than happy to risk it !

Interesting forum though .

Ooops - sorry about the typo - "evaluation" should read "evolution" - sorry !

[tjlees]

Yes, I'm a bit tired of the manual brigade going on about the death of car involvement, especially in Evo and Autocar. It only involves the 'feeling' sense and not really the other four senses. Did we get so much negative prose over the death of cadence braking or un-assisted steering?

Dont get me wrong, I do love the involvement of my track cars, which are manual, no abs and no hydraulic steering.

The key thing for any car though is the whole package IMHO. The E63 M6 with the smg slam in the back gear changes, howling v10 5 litre NA engine and power slides on demand, pressed all the buttons for me. The new M6 left me cold. The 991 s with a manual box is just irritating. The evo6 and evo8 manuals I had, combined with noise and blistering A to B pace in all weathers were sublime.

I am pretty sure the 991 GT3 with PDK will be one of best car packages on the market and will invoke a myriad of positive emotions for all who drive it.

My only concern, is given the price of around £120k including options and the broad appeal of PDK etc, what will the second hand values be like?.Should you buy now or wait until the first years deprecation?

[Mermaid]

tjlees said:

My only concern, is given the price of around £120k including options and the broad appeal of PDK etc, what will the second hand values be like?.Should you buy now or wait until the first years deprecation?

You know the answer to that I expect volume will be higher than that of 7.2 GT3's

[tjlees]

Mermaid said:

tjlees said:

My only concern, is given the price of around £120k including options and the broad appeal of PDK etc, what will the second hand values be like?.Should you buy now or wait until the first years deprecation?

You know the answer to that I expect volume will be higher than that of 7.2 GT3's

Yes, probably like the 997.2 turbo s going from 130k with options to 100k in a blink of an eye on the secondhand market. ... But soo long to wait for a secondhand 991 GT3 ...