RE: The new 911 GT3: PH Blog
Discussion
Snubs said:
I think the GT3 maintains the 'roots in racing' ethos. Surely racing is about going as fast as possible, which is what a lot of the tech on the GT3 is for? I doubt that F1 teams thought "perhaps which should stick with fully manual so our drivers can continue to enjoy that nice rifle bolt feel". Traction control was used in F1 to the same end and again i doubt that their top concern was the fact that their drivers would no longer enjoy a gratuitous dab of oppo'.
If the tag line was 'roots in driver enjoyment, not posing' the argument would of course be very different. But racing isn't about enjoying a B-road blast, it's about winning. So i'm afraid i don't really see where the new tech on the GT3 goes against the aforementioned 'fast as possible' approach?
It's refreshing to see someone bringing some clear analysis to the table. I do see Dan's point in some respects - the change of approach to the engine being the best example, I think. But Snubs' distinction between racing and driver enjoyment is very insightful. Even those who actually often take their cars on track days may be more interested in the driver experience than the out-and-out lap times. There is nothing wrong with that, of course, but you can't imagine Vettel's post-practice discussions with his race engineers focus much on driver enjoyment as opposed to how to shave another tenth of his lap times. If the tag line was 'roots in driver enjoyment, not posing' the argument would of course be very different. But racing isn't about enjoying a B-road blast, it's about winning. So i'm afraid i don't really see where the new tech on the GT3 goes against the aforementioned 'fast as possible' approach?
Dan,
The fact that the video below your article shows a car from many years ago sums up the dire sitution Porsche finds itself in regarding being competitive in actual racing.
They have been far too accomodating to some of their fan base and took their eyes off the ball in order to preserve the 911 and Mezger.
Just one look at the FIA GT3 results will tell you that the situation is actually the reverse of what you your article is about. The RS is more likely to be seen in the UK being driven at 5mph around Mayfair than winning things at Silverstone.
The GT3 from the past few years has been all about posing and not winning anything in motorsport. Good marketing has masked the increasing gap between the 911 CUP and the likes of Aston, AMG, Ferrari, Audi and Chev.
The new GT3 should address this in the coming years and this is the start of Porsche getting back into the game.
The fact that the video below your article shows a car from many years ago sums up the dire sitution Porsche finds itself in regarding being competitive in actual racing.
They have been far too accomodating to some of their fan base and took their eyes off the ball in order to preserve the 911 and Mezger.
Just one look at the FIA GT3 results will tell you that the situation is actually the reverse of what you your article is about. The RS is more likely to be seen in the UK being driven at 5mph around Mayfair than winning things at Silverstone.
The GT3 from the past few years has been all about posing and not winning anything in motorsport. Good marketing has masked the increasing gap between the 911 CUP and the likes of Aston, AMG, Ferrari, Audi and Chev.
The new GT3 should address this in the coming years and this is the start of Porsche getting back into the game.
Edited by Carl_Docklands on Friday 8th March 10:34
LaurasOtherHalf said:
Oh & by the way, perhaps try commenting once you've driven the car!
This +100Porsche have an incredible track record of creating amazing drivers cars in the GT3 and RS models. Drive it... if you think it feels like a GTR clone once you've done that, then criticise.
Alex said:
This sadly happens to all sporting divisions, BMW M, Honda Type-R, AMG. The enthusiast engineers within the company build a true sporting derivative, it's successful, builds a reputation. And then the marketing men take over...
Disagree with AMG, if anything they have gotten more focusedSprintSpeciale said:
It's refreshing to see someone bringing some clear analysis to the table. I do see Dan's point in some respects - the change of approach to the engine being the best example, I think. But Snubs' distinction between racing and driver enjoyment is very insightful. Even those who actually often take their cars on track days may be more interested in the driver experience than the out-and-out lap times. There is nothing wrong with that, of course, but you can't imagine Vettel's post-practice discussions with his race engineers focus much on driver enjoyment as opposed to how to shave another tenth of his lap times.
Fair points all and interesting to hear. I liked the way one of my colleagues on Autocar put it when they said Porsche has always balanced "How fast am I going?" with "How am I going fast?" and while to put a properly fast lap in with a new GT3 will require just as much skill and talent as ever at the kind of speeds most punters are able to carry on road or track I suspect the new car will feel like it's coasting rather than flattering one's delusions of ability! This is the one question we'll have to wait for the drive to truly answer of course. I'm going on previous experience and analysis of what we've been told.
And, for the record, like I said in the piece this is about a lot more than the PDK thing.
Enjoying the discussion though, keep it coming!
Dan
I think thats a great article with an interesting point made (one that i agree with).....But
Porsche are in the buisness of selling cars, so if this car appeals to a wider range of potential buyers then thats not some clever Marketing or dumbing down of product, thats just good business.
Porsche are in the buisness of selling cars, so if this car appeals to a wider range of potential buyers then thats not some clever Marketing or dumbing down of product, thats just good business.
great article and clearly sums upo the thought of a lot of people on here.
only one line really needs reading though.... (and i dont mean that unkindly!)
"Before I sign off I, of course, reserve the right to renounce every word I've just written as utter cobblers at the first sniff of a drive..."
ive a horrible feeling we might all need to go and buy hats to eat.
p.s to summerise my thoughts....and im a MASSIVE porsche fan, i have a 1913 classic car which will make a 96rs (The car i am buying next
) feel unconnected and un involving....thats evolution for you.
only one line really needs reading though.... (and i dont mean that unkindly!)
"Before I sign off I, of course, reserve the right to renounce every word I've just written as utter cobblers at the first sniff of a drive..."
ive a horrible feeling we might all need to go and buy hats to eat.
p.s to summerise my thoughts....and im a MASSIVE porsche fan, i have a 1913 classic car which will make a 96rs (The car i am buying next
) feel unconnected and un involving....thats evolution for you.kel176506 said:
I think thats a great article with an interesting point made (one that i agree with).....But
Porsche are in the buisness of selling cars, so if this car appeals to a wider range of potential buyers then thats not some clever Marketing or dumbing down of product, thats just good business.
Fair point, but a guy posted on here that he had been at a GT3 meet and none of the current owners expressed an interest in buying this new one, they all had pretty much the same reservations raised in this article.Porsche are in the buisness of selling cars, so if this car appeals to a wider range of potential buyers then thats not some clever Marketing or dumbing down of product, thats just good business.
TomTVR500 said:
Alex said:
This sadly happens to all sporting divisions, BMW M, Honda Type-R, AMG. The enthusiast engineers within the company build a true sporting derivative, it's successful, builds a reputation. And then the marketing men take over...
This^^Both 997s were way too grippy and capable to be driven in anger on the road, this is even more so but it won't be night and day different in terms of everyday speed. They can only move it on incrementally.
The acceleration gains are largely down to PDK and a few bhp of course. The engine origin doesn't bother me and it shouldn't bother 'racers' either, I don't care where it comes from. I just care that it has character, performance and sounds good. Those that take a lot of pleasure in having a race derived engine are poseurs in my opinion. Not all, but some.
I like the fact that the car now has PDK. The reality is I'm not on track that often in my road cars, so I love the fact that it will now be way more useable. I really like the duality of good paddle shifts. On track the PDK will be sublime, off track the auto function or manual paddle change will be great too. It is of course nice to have a manual option but personally I'm glad we don't as then I'd be agonising over what to have. The purist in me would want the manual, knowing deep down that the PDK is much more versatile better most of the time for most of my moods! I'm glad porsche has decided for me.
I've ordered one, I think it looks fantastic and the spec sounds great. Sure there's less to brag about but that's a good thing, lack of metzger engine etc. For me it is about the driving experience first and foremost. I very much doubt it won't over deliver on that front. If you're desperate for a manual you are spoilt for choice with previous generation GT3. Take your pick, you'll lose less money too, if any.
The acceleration gains are largely down to PDK and a few bhp of course. The engine origin doesn't bother me and it shouldn't bother 'racers' either, I don't care where it comes from. I just care that it has character, performance and sounds good. Those that take a lot of pleasure in having a race derived engine are poseurs in my opinion. Not all, but some.
I like the fact that the car now has PDK. The reality is I'm not on track that often in my road cars, so I love the fact that it will now be way more useable. I really like the duality of good paddle shifts. On track the PDK will be sublime, off track the auto function or manual paddle change will be great too. It is of course nice to have a manual option but personally I'm glad we don't as then I'd be agonising over what to have. The purist in me would want the manual, knowing deep down that the PDK is much more versatile better most of the time for most of my moods! I'm glad porsche has decided for me.
I've ordered one, I think it looks fantastic and the spec sounds great. Sure there's less to brag about but that's a good thing, lack of metzger engine etc. For me it is about the driving experience first and foremost. I very much doubt it won't over deliver on that front. If you're desperate for a manual you are spoilt for choice with previous generation GT3. Take your pick, you'll lose less money too, if any.
Munich said:
The problem is that they become a victim of their own success. It is not so much that the marketing men take over; it's more that the customer base gets bigger and becomes broader and therefore these cars have to appeal to a greater audience (less extreme). Top management types demand that with each successive generation more and more units are sold, further increasing the need of these cars to appeal to the lowest common denominator. By allowing them to maintain a very broad customer base, they can maintain higher volumes.
Yes, but what about customers who actually want a no-frills, focused driving machine? I hate all this electronic/active crap they are putting on cars these days. I'd happily do without electric windows, never mind the rest of it.Kawasicki said:
TomTVR500 said:
Alex said:
This sadly happens to all sporting divisions, BMW M, Honda Type-R, AMG. The enthusiast engineers within the company build a true sporting derivative, it's successful, builds a reputation. And then the marketing men take over...
This^^Then the average to bad motoring press reviews come in, and the sales are lukewarm.
None of these manufacturers either actually competes in the FIA GT3 championship or if they did, they were/are not competitive with regularity.
You are all forgetting what GT3 actually means, it means racing and competing in the GT3 and trying to win it, something that Porsche in the last 8 years have struggled with.
The main reason why they have been struggling is not down to the trim interior, or if the car has a manual gearbox, it is down to the lack of performance.
The lack of performance is not down to Porsche not having the engineers to make it competitive, it is down to the baggage that the 911 and Mezger have, it is a millstone around Porsches neck.
Nissan, Ferrari, Audi and Chev have none of this baggage and this is why the number of wins for the 911 have been few and far between.
A motorsport derived Cayman with a flat-8 could have put them back on the podium with more regularity during this time but their fans would have been up in arms.
Edited by Carl_Docklands on Friday 8th March 10:34
mat205125 said:
The GT3 Cup race cars haven't used a manual box in quite a few years, and iterations of the 997 car (996 too maybe?). I can think of NASCAR, and not a lot else that still uses a manual gear box in top level motorsport.
I'm well aware that a proper race sequential box and the PDK are completely different animals, however from the drivers seat it could be argued that the PDK is closer to a track experience than continuing with a manual.
Just because it's not H-pattern, does not mean it's not manual.I'm well aware that a proper race sequential box and the PDK are completely different animals, however from the drivers seat it could be argued that the PDK is closer to a track experience than continuing with a manual.
The GT3 Cup has always been and still uses a manual gearbox.
The 996 generations were H-pattern.
997 Cup's were all sequential manual (not H-pattern).
The latest Cup continues with a sequential manual box (as does the R and RSR) though now activated via flappy paddles.
Porsche have not and are not using PDK or Auto on their race cars.
Alex said:
Munich said:
The problem is that they become a victim of their own success. It is not so much that the marketing men take over; it's more that the customer base gets bigger and becomes broader and therefore these cars have to appeal to a greater audience (less extreme). Top management types demand that with each successive generation more and more units are sold, further increasing the need of these cars to appeal to the lowest common denominator. By allowing them to maintain a very broad customer base, they can maintain higher volumes.
Yes, but what about customers who actually want a no-frills, focused driving machine? I hate all this electronic/active crap they are putting on cars these days. I'd happily do without electric windows, never mind the rest of it.I think the car's relevance as a GT3 similar to the racer is still there.
The fact was that before, this translated into a fine road car. Not because it was a GT3, just that it fitted with our needs as hooners.
We don't actually want GT3 cars to drive on the road, we want old 911 GT3's.
There's an opportunity here and i hope it arrives....Cayman RS. Spanish. Post diet.
The fact was that before, this translated into a fine road car. Not because it was a GT3, just that it fitted with our needs as hooners.
We don't actually want GT3 cars to drive on the road, we want old 911 GT3's.
There's an opportunity here and i hope it arrives....Cayman RS. Spanish. Post diet.
Joe911 said:
mat205125 said:
The GT3 Cup race cars haven't used a manual box in quite a few years, and iterations of the 997 car (996 too maybe?). I can think of NASCAR, and not a lot else that still uses a manual gear box in top level motorsport.
I'm well aware that a proper race sequential box and the PDK are completely different animals, however from the drivers seat it could be argued that the PDK is closer to a track experience than continuing with a manual.
Just because it's not H-pattern, does not mean it's not manual.I'm well aware that a proper race sequential box and the PDK are completely different animals, however from the drivers seat it could be argued that the PDK is closer to a track experience than continuing with a manual.
The GT3 Cup has always been and still uses a manual gearbox.
The 996 generations were H-pattern.
997 Cup's were all sequential manual (not H-pattern).
The latest Cup continues with a sequential manual box (as does the R and RSR) though now activated via flappy paddles.
Porsche have not and are not using PDK or Auto on their race cars.
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