RE: The new 911 GT3: PH Blog
Discussion
Dan Trent said:
SprintSpeciale said:
It's refreshing to see someone bringing some clear analysis to the table. I do see Dan's point in some respects - the change of approach to the engine being the best example, I think. But Snubs' distinction between racing and driver enjoyment is very insightful. Even those who actually often take their cars on track days may be more interested in the driver experience than the out-and-out lap times. There is nothing wrong with that, of course, but you can't imagine Vettel's post-practice discussions with his race engineers focus much on driver enjoyment as opposed to how to shave another tenth of his lap times.
Fair points all and interesting to hear. I liked the way one of my colleagues on Autocar put it when they said Porsche has always balanced "How fast am I going?" with "How am I going fast?" and while to put a properly fast lap in with a new GT3 will require just as much skill and talent as ever at the kind of speeds most punters are able to carry on road or track I suspect the new car will feel like it's coasting rather than flattering one's delusions of ability! This is the one question we'll have to wait for the drive to truly answer of course. I'm going on previous experience and analysis of what we've been told.
And, for the record, like I said in the piece this is about a lot more than the PDK thing.
Enjoying the discussion though, keep it coming!
Dan
Would it be within the spirit of this new car for it to be offered with that feature?
If yes, the GT line is dead. If no, then perhaps there's still hope.
kel176506 said:
I think thats a great article with an interesting point made (one that i agree with).....But
Porsche are in the buisness of selling cars, so if this car appeals to a wider range of potential buyers then thats not some clever Marketing or dumbing down of product, thats just good business.
Agreed &:Porsche are in the buisness of selling cars, so if this car appeals to a wider range of potential buyers then thats not some clever Marketing or dumbing down of product, thats just good business.
"Before I sign off I, of course, reserve the right to renounce every word I've just written as utter cobblers at the first sniff of a drive.."
The 991 GT3 will rewrite the GT3 story & move the concept to a new level.
Carl_Docklands said:
In the context of Porsche and GT3 this comment is wrong on many levels.
None of these manufacturers either actually competes in the FIA GT3 championship or if they did, they were/are not competitive with regularity.
Actually, Porsche don't seem to give a fNone of these manufacturers either actually competes in the FIA GT3 championship or if they did, they were/are not competitive with regularity.
k about GT3 racing, which unlike GTE (nee GT2), doesn't have a proper rulebook spec to which cars have to be built. Real sportscar companies go racing in GTE, not FIA GT3.If the market demanded enough manuals, guess what the cars would be? No point arguing about it, Porsche is a business, and they're out to make money, blah blah blah.
The wants of a minority rarely enter into it.
If you feel so strongly about it, prop up the company financially, and then you can have any gadget and gizmo you like. Otherwise, either step aside, or get in the queue.
But are Porsche really so different from most other manufacturers? Are you really so surprised? Really??
The wants of a minority rarely enter into it.
If you feel so strongly about it, prop up the company financially, and then you can have any gadget and gizmo you like. Otherwise, either step aside, or get in the queue.
But are Porsche really so different from most other manufacturers? Are you really so surprised? Really??
PDK is 20 years old now. It first appeared in the 962 race car.
Given my ham fisted wheel twirling skills, if I had a GT3 and someone gave me the option of being able to hold onto the steering wheel with both hands whilst shifting I'd be tempted to say yes please.
But I'm not saying that from a 911 purists point of view its what you really want in a road car though.
Derek Bell wasn't a fan either...
http://www.automobilemag.com/features/news/0807_de...
Given my ham fisted wheel twirling skills, if I had a GT3 and someone gave me the option of being able to hold onto the steering wheel with both hands whilst shifting I'd be tempted to say yes please.
But I'm not saying that from a 911 purists point of view its what you really want in a road car though.
Derek Bell wasn't a fan either...
http://www.automobilemag.com/features/news/0807_de...
I never really bought into the Porsche brand, I have driven a few, on track and road, and my talent level, too low, is probably the reason I didn't really enjoy the experiences, but this ad really drives home what Porsche is all about, it really expresses the brand, I think it is fantastic.
BelfastBoy said:
Just out of curiosity, which is faster on a track - the enthusiasts choice (997 GT3), or the tech-packed everyday easy to drive option (997 Turbo / S)? Anybody know because I've always been curious?
I'll have to dig out some stats but, off the top of my head, a 997.2 GT3 is c. 7:40 round the 'ring, which is about the same as the 991 Carrera 2 S. When they quoted the latter stat at the 991 launch they didn't specify whether that was base spec or fully loaded with PDCC, PASM, PTV, PDK or any other acronyms! Either way, it's a pretty telling demonstration of how much quicker the 991 is, even as a 'base' package. For comparison a GT3 RS 4.0 - manual, obviously - does 7:27 and you'd expect Rohrl and the boys won't be allowed to stop pumping laps in with the all-singing, all-dancing PDK'd, four-wheel steer 991 GT3 until they've beaten that. As it stands they're saying 'sub 7:30' but nothing more than that.
I'll see if I can find the time for Turbos of various guises for comparison...
Cheers,
Dan
Dr JonboyG said:
Carl_Docklands said:
In the context of Porsche and GT3 this comment is wrong on many levels.
None of these manufacturers either actually competes in the FIA GT3 championship or if they did, they were/are not competitive with regularity.
Actually, Porsche don't seem to give a fNone of these manufacturers either actually competes in the FIA GT3 championship or if they did, they were/are not competitive with regularity.
k about GT3 racing, which unlike GTE (nee GT2), doesn't have a proper rulebook spec to which cars have to be built. Real sportscar companies go racing in GTE, not FIA GT3.There are real engineering reasons why these changes are necessary for the GT3, the car will not be fast enough without them.
You want a slower car with move involvement? the new GT3 is not for you, you should buy a 2.7 Cayman with a manual box.
Dr S said:
Well put article. Exactly the reason why the 991 GT3 leaves me frightingly lukewarm. If this makes me a nerd then I am happy to be one...
This car will be different, better in many ways (attracts new segment), not so pleasing in others (to aficianados). But very soon, the benchmark.Dan Trent said:
BelfastBoy said:
Just out of curiosity, which is faster on a track - the enthusiasts choice (997 GT3), or the tech-packed everyday easy to drive option (997 Turbo / S)? Anybody know because I've always been curious?
"Respectfully I take your point. How ever my comments are based on owning and driving these cars over a long period of time and several thousands of miles. As such I have no hesitation what so ever in observing that irrespective of the torque output, that the 991s PDK, is significantly faster, in the real world than a 4.0 RS , Fact."
LaurasOtherHalf said:
Load of old bks.
The gearbox is pdk because the market demands it.
Its more about reducing the CO/2 emissions on the cars, which meets the EU targets etc -- which is a good thing!?ks.The gearbox is pdk because the market demands it.
I drive a DCT M3 and in traffic its painful and gets some getting use to, but once you are on the open road, or a track, its brilliant. Very fast changes, rev-matching downshifts, its doing all the hard work, while you concentrate on keeping it on the dark stuff.
Granted there is a pure sense of achievement of driving a fast manual, especially when you get everything just right, but if you timed your laps, you would find the paddle shift style boxes quicker, hence their use in Motor Sport.
The manual is about an emotional response, nothing to do with performance, 0.60, omissions etc. I doubt a manual could match the stomach churning 0.60 times of some of the modern day cars, e.g. 0.60 in a AMG E-Class <4 seconds - do me a lemon!!
I'm afraid the manual is dead in high performance cars, the new GT3, Ferrari, McLaren etc, all favoring the double clutch or robotised boxes.
Carl_Docklands said:
This from our own Porsche forum.
"Respectfully I take your point. How ever my comments are based on owning and driving these cars over a long period of time and several thousands of miles. As such I have no hesitation what so ever in observing that irrespective of the torque output, that the 991s PDK, is significantly faster, in the real world than a 4.0 RS , Fact."
It'd better be; that 7:27 by the old 4.0 with its archaic manual gearbox and Mezger engine has set a fairly stiff benchmark! No wonder the test drivers in that spy video we published a while back looked like they were on it! No steak on a stone until you've done a 7:25 gentlemen! "Respectfully I take your point. How ever my comments are based on owning and driving these cars over a long period of time and several thousands of miles. As such I have no hesitation what so ever in observing that irrespective of the torque output, that the 991s PDK, is significantly faster, in the real world than a 4.0 RS , Fact."
Dan
Having driven a 997 GTS PDK back to back with the 997 GT3 (that I now own) the difference between the two was night and day with the GT3 feeling like a completely different car. Will there be such a stark contrast between the 991 2S and the 991GT3?
I suspect not.. (that is until im proven wrong by driving one)
I suspect not.. (that is until im proven wrong by driving one)
SpeckledJim said:
Imagine a world in which 'auto-steering' was possible. At the push of a fascia button the car, using GPS, telematics, and dozens of cameras and sensors, would take full responsibility for the helm. And it would be preternaturally good. Better than any human. Lap times using auto-steering were always faster.
Would it be within the spirit of this new car for it to be offered with that feature?
If yes, the GT line is dead. If no, then perhaps there's still hope.
It already exists - They have an app for that so to speak at Laguna Seca a TTRS that laps the track without a driver using GPS and image processing to map the best driving line and other cars. It is a second or two off a professional race driver qualifying lap. You can then drive the lap to see how you can improve your braking points and racing line. Would it be within the spirit of this new car for it to be offered with that feature?
If yes, the GT line is dead. If no, then perhaps there's still hope.
Google have been using driverless cars for years now. I would love have the option to switch on the taxi driver in traffic or boring bits.
I have faith that the GT3 is quicker than the outgoing one.
As for the GT3 I have faith that Porsche haven't screwed the pouch in regards to how fast it is.
elvisburger said:
LaurasOtherHalf said:
Load of old bks.
The gearbox is pdk because the market demands it.
Its more about reducing the CO/2 emissions on the cars, which meets the EU targets etc -- which is a good thing!?ks.The gearbox is pdk because the market demands it.
Either way, Porsche aren't chumps & they know what their customers want. If enough people shout for a manual then they might even develope one but let's be honest, the numbers won't be as impressive & it's the numbers that sell cars to the masses.
I'm glad they've made the gt3 pdk, I just wish they'd have given us a manual option too but I honestly think people who think like me are in the minority nowadays.
At least it gives the 997 owners something to crow about, "it's the last gt3 manual blah blah blah", they've had it tough on the forums what with the 996 owners laying claim to "it's the last no driver aids Porsche" & "it's the last passive damped gt3" etc etc.
Almost every word you wrote is what I was thinking prior to the launch and after I had handed over a deposit to get up the queue 6 weeks ago. But you know as soon as I saw the car in the flesh a couple days ago I didn't care for more than a second, I still had to have it and I had to have it in full clubsport glory with PCCB as soon as I can. And mine will live on a trailer and go from track to track and be battered as hard as I can as soon as I can. If it's dull and not too scary I'll sell it on and continue to enjoy my 996 GT3 Mk2 (that I am keeping also) in all its mechanical glory but I suspect a company like Porsche are not going to balls this one up and they must have something pretty special.....I live in hope!
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