RE: The new 911 GT3: PH Blog
Discussion
405dogvan said:
The thing is - the GT3 is supposedly the road-going version of the GT3-class competition cup cars - and they've been sequential boxed (e.g. lever) and are now going paddle shift anyway - so it's actually not going against the racing ethos with a PDK box.
Soo also the M5 - a car which has generally been said to be worse with a manual - times they are a changing...
p.s. also, anyone who brings up 'digital' cars is a f
king idiot - digital cars exist in racing games - no car on the road is 'digital' anymore than any other, cars are just evolving, there was no 'line' to cross with electronics, we're just making cars go faster from A to B.
Not sure that I deserve that attack. It's cute to define virtual cars as "digital" and real cars as "analogue" and on some levels it's accurate. The interface (essentially a modulator-demodulator) is certainly still "analogue" in many senses but the machine is not. I usually appreciate your opinions, here I cannot. Soo also the M5 - a car which has generally been said to be worse with a manual - times they are a changing...
p.s. also, anyone who brings up 'digital' cars is a f
king idiot - digital cars exist in racing games - no car on the road is 'digital' anymore than any other, cars are just evolving, there was no 'line' to cross with electronics, we're just making cars go faster from A to B.Why are people so obssessd with going faster in a GT3 when even modern hot hatches are too fast to drive flat out. Few will be capable of fully exploiting this car and if they've got the ability wouldn't they get more enjoyment from a manual? Racers are sequential to win races, save driver energy and make paint-swapping manouvuers safer. How are any of these benefits relevant to a road car?
However good a two pedal set-up is, it's always going to remove challenge and involvement for a keen driver. With cars disguising their speed and playing engine noises through their speakers that's the last thing we need
Don't blame Porsche for offering a PDK for all the posers who keep this market so bouyant but not bothering to develop a manual and selling out on the prinicpals of pure driving they were so committed to with the 997 seems cynical
However good a two pedal set-up is, it's always going to remove challenge and involvement for a keen driver. With cars disguising their speed and playing engine noises through their speakers that's the last thing we need
Don't blame Porsche for offering a PDK for all the posers who keep this market so bouyant but not bothering to develop a manual and selling out on the prinicpals of pure driving they were so committed to with the 997 seems cynical
Carl_Docklands said:
Kawasicki said:
TomTVR500 said:
Alex said:
This sadly happens to all sporting divisions, BMW M, Honda Type-R, AMG. The enthusiast engineers within the company build a true sporting derivative, it's successful, builds a reputation. And then the marketing men take over...
This^^Then the average to bad motoring press reviews come in, and the sales are lukewarm.
None of these manufacturers either actually competes in the FIA GT3 championship or if they did, they were/are not competitive with regularity.
You are all forgetting what GT3 actually means, it means racing and competing in the GT3 and trying to win it, something that Porsche in the last 8 years have struggled with.
The main reason why they have been struggling is not down to the trim interior, or if the car has a manual gearbox, it is down to the lack of performance.
The lack of performance is not down to Porsche not having the engineers to make it competitive, it is down to the baggage that the 911 and Mezger have, it is a millstone around Porsches neck.
Nissan, Ferrari, Audi and Chev have none of this baggage and this is why the number of wins for the 911 have been few and far between.
A motorsport derived Cayman with a flat-8 could have put them back on the podium with more regularity during this time but their fans would have been up in arms.
Edited by Carl_Docklands on Friday 8th March 10:34
I know why a motorsport derived mid engined flat 8 car have Porsche fans up in arms, but they might need to grow up a little, and maybe Porsche would end up making a new hero car. That's the kind of model range extension I would like to see Porsche do.
Foggy748 said:
Why so many armchair experts when no one has driven the car yet?
Because we've used dual-clutch systems and understand the difference they bring from a manual and, despite not having used the exact specification in the new GT3, expect that difference will ultimately detract from the feel of a GT3 - the speed: no; the control: no; the feel. To some people that will matter more than to others.I believe the underlying issue is that the 911 range of recent times has managed to pull off that hardest of tricks - being jack of all trades as well as catering for all of the 'sports car' niches; drive a turbo after a GT3RS and if you were blind fold (not advisable) you would swear that they were totally different models. On paper it feels like those diametrically opposed points are shifting closer together. Its not a bad thing, it just risks being a bit samey.
This subject is, as far as I am concerned (and I realistically expect a plethora of usual class of reactions forums cook to perfection) just another textbook example of prejudicial approach to something 99.9% of those discussing it have no real first-hand experience with. And, if they do, it is at a level well below any which would enable them to discuss realistically (read: on the basis of true first-hand experience with true theoretical knowledge and practical skills).
Leaving aside our historical national habit that, the more crude any car happens to be, it will be declared proportionally "more of a driver's car" (whatever that is supposed to mean within the asylum of "subjectivism" as the safest escape route available), we now witness the 2nd most recent episode of Porsche's 'inappropriate conduct' aimed at all the hard-core Porsche loyalists. Heresy No.1 was the electro-mechanical power steering. Now we seem to have an ever bigger sin - the new GT3.
I have patiently waited to read all the (negative) wisdom expressed on the subject of the new GT3 so far and, according to all of you good people, I need not worry about anything as I happen to own the "last good one", I will not say a word more after this post (in hope that some true understanding and common sense has not been totally lost in some quarters), but, being one of the small number of those who has actually experienced the new GT3, rest assured it is NOT anywhere as easy to drive as the rest of the 991 portfolio (compared to previous generations). And I might even choose to own one.
Two small details that should be of interest: a) why is the unladen weight of the new GT3 15kg higher than that of the Carrera S PDK (before you put the sports bucket seats, which are, once again, almost like a service charge in restaurants, an "option" you "have to have" if you choose ClubSport) and, b) it is now quite clear what price tag to expect from the forthcoming RS variant in a year or two (at least approaching that of the RS 4.0).
PS. In case you may be interested, the new GT3 drives in a much more focused and serious manner than if it has been just a "badge of intent"...as the most prominent Porsche connoisseur on PH will find out pretty soon, I am sure. With all the gizmos in full swing, of course.
Leaving aside our historical national habit that, the more crude any car happens to be, it will be declared proportionally "more of a driver's car" (whatever that is supposed to mean within the asylum of "subjectivism" as the safest escape route available), we now witness the 2nd most recent episode of Porsche's 'inappropriate conduct' aimed at all the hard-core Porsche loyalists. Heresy No.1 was the electro-mechanical power steering. Now we seem to have an ever bigger sin - the new GT3.
I have patiently waited to read all the (negative) wisdom expressed on the subject of the new GT3 so far and, according to all of you good people, I need not worry about anything as I happen to own the "last good one", I will not say a word more after this post (in hope that some true understanding and common sense has not been totally lost in some quarters), but, being one of the small number of those who has actually experienced the new GT3, rest assured it is NOT anywhere as easy to drive as the rest of the 991 portfolio (compared to previous generations). And I might even choose to own one.
Two small details that should be of interest: a) why is the unladen weight of the new GT3 15kg higher than that of the Carrera S PDK (before you put the sports bucket seats, which are, once again, almost like a service charge in restaurants, an "option" you "have to have" if you choose ClubSport) and, b) it is now quite clear what price tag to expect from the forthcoming RS variant in a year or two (at least approaching that of the RS 4.0).
PS. In case you may be interested, the new GT3 drives in a much more focused and serious manner than if it has been just a "badge of intent"...as the most prominent Porsche connoisseur on PH will find out pretty soon, I am sure. With all the gizmos in full swing, of course.
Not being funny but the M3 CSL had SMGII and this is a great gearbox suited for hard driving. The majority of Carrera 2/2S/4/4S/Targa/Turbo drivers choose PDK not Porsche Manual Gearbox.
The Meigzer engine was probably getting old and to meet new regs needed a new development. Just because isn't raced atm doesn't mean won't eventually raced in future. Ok so u won't have the bragging rights in the pub u got a race car engine.
But PDK was inevitable eventually at least as an option and is suited to track driving. A little surprised there is no manual option but hey. Biggest surprise for me is 4WS.
Everyone on PH is a powerfully built GT3 driving company driving kicks up a fuss now. But in years to come u will be all forgotten.
Little like when water cooling introduced .... Look how well the 996s and 997s sold
Or when 993 introduced everyone love the styling out purists hated it.
Things got to change u to respond to the wirkd's changing demands.
If u desire an 996/997 GT3 u can buy one used ????
The Meigzer engine was probably getting old and to meet new regs needed a new development. Just because isn't raced atm doesn't mean won't eventually raced in future. Ok so u won't have the bragging rights in the pub u got a race car engine.
But PDK was inevitable eventually at least as an option and is suited to track driving. A little surprised there is no manual option but hey. Biggest surprise for me is 4WS.
Everyone on PH is a powerfully built GT3 driving company driving kicks up a fuss now. But in years to come u will be all forgotten.
Little like when water cooling introduced .... Look how well the 996s and 997s sold
Or when 993 introduced everyone love the styling out purists hated it.
Things got to change u to respond to the wirkd's changing demands.
If u desire an 996/997 GT3 u can buy one used ????
sisu said:
It already exists - They have an app for that so to speak at Laguna Seca a TTRS that laps the track without a driver using GPS and image processing to map the best driving line and other cars. It is a second or two off a professional race driver qualifying lap. You can then drive the lap to see how you can improve your braking points and racing line.
Google have been using driverless cars for years now. I would love have the option to switch on the taxi driver in traffic or boring bits.
I have faith that the GT3 is quicker than the outgoing one.
As for the GT3 I have faith that Porsche haven't screwed the pouch in regards to how fast it is.
I think this is the key point. At the moment these technologies are just a bit slower than the best drivers. If you see the progress being made with driverless cars it's quite obvious that it won't be too much longer when a fully automated car will be able to get round a track quicker than any driver and will be much much safer. Google have been using driverless cars for years now. I would love have the option to switch on the taxi driver in traffic or boring bits.
I have faith that the GT3 is quicker than the outgoing one.
As for the GT3 I have faith that Porsche haven't screwed the pouch in regards to how fast it is.
For those who admire a car which has a computer which can shift better and quicker than any human, or has a traction system that can sense the grip available to each wheel and provide the maximum possible power will you still be interested in one that can also steer better and quicker? Where's the limit?
gt3rsgen2 said:
This subject is, as far as I am concerned (and I realistically expect a plethora of usual class of reactions forums cook to perfection) just another textbook example of prejudicial approach to something 99.9% ....
I have patiently waited to read all the (negative) wisdom expressed on the subject of the new GT3 so far and, according to all of you good people, I need not worry about anything as I happen to own the "last good one" .....
Two small details that should be of interest: a) why is the unladen weight of the new GT3 15kg higher than that of the Carrera S PDK (before you put the sports bucket seats, which are, once again, almost like a service charge in restaurants, an "option" you "have to have" if you choose ClubSport) and, b) it is now quite clear what price tag to expect from the forthcoming RS variant in a year or two (at least approaching that of the RS 4.0).
....
For me when I drove the 991S IMHO it seriously moved the game on for porsche. I would expect the 991 gt3 will be seriously good according to the hacks and any concerns expressed here should melt away regarding the porsche feel. You are absolutely right - how can people make comments about the dynamics, feel and handling of this car until they have actually driven it - and then on a track.I have patiently waited to read all the (negative) wisdom expressed on the subject of the new GT3 so far and, according to all of you good people, I need not worry about anything as I happen to own the "last good one" .....
Two small details that should be of interest: a) why is the unladen weight of the new GT3 15kg higher than that of the Carrera S PDK (before you put the sports bucket seats, which are, once again, almost like a service charge in restaurants, an "option" you "have to have" if you choose ClubSport) and, b) it is now quite clear what price tag to expect from the forthcoming RS variant in a year or two (at least approaching that of the RS 4.0).
....
My main concern with the gt3 is funnily enough not Pdk, four wheel steer etc but the fact that it is not derived from the race proven 993 gt3 rsr race car with the usual porsche comfort additions. Isn't this what you should get with the gt3?
I am sure the new engine will be an absolute peach - though it's derived from the 991 s is shares very few parts with it. As with other gt3s it will still be difficult to drive on the public road at pace and on the boil, due the third gear sweet spot being at about 100+ mph and second topping out at 88. But that makes it special
Probably ok for the track.The din weight gain over the 991 s Pdk and last 997.2 gt3 (35kg) - I would have expected porsche to try and keep it almost the same given the aluminium panels. The axle lift and roll cage will add further weight though pccbs and the sports bucket should remove weight from the din 1430kg.
I too look forward to to 991 RS or the 4.0 RS
I think the thing is, gt3s didn't mean race, they meant interaction.
Road cars you can take on track. RS was track car you can take the road.
They seem to have taken race car attributes and made them the new highlight at the detriment of interaction.
I don't think many people want a cup car for the road. At least not us, maybe the public do?
How many gt3s are sold compared to cooking 911s?
Why not leave them as better road cars than race cars?
They were the pinnacle of using the envelope of dynamics available on the road. Now they're taking pluses from the race cars and putting them into a road car.
Its kind of like these modern dubbers, taking a good thing and over doing it until it takes away from what driving a car is about.
Road cars you can take on track. RS was track car you can take the road.
They seem to have taken race car attributes and made them the new highlight at the detriment of interaction.
I don't think many people want a cup car for the road. At least not us, maybe the public do?
How many gt3s are sold compared to cooking 911s?
Why not leave them as better road cars than race cars?
They were the pinnacle of using the envelope of dynamics available on the road. Now they're taking pluses from the race cars and putting them into a road car.
Its kind of like these modern dubbers, taking a good thing and over doing it until it takes away from what driving a car is about.
405dogvan said:
The thing is - the GT3 is supposedly the road-going version of the GT3-class competition cup cars - and they've been sequential boxed (e.g. lever) and are now going paddle shift anyway - so it's actually not going against the racing ethos with a PDK box.
From a user perspective the new GT3 Cup is operated just like the PDK, using paddles - but from a technology/mechanical perspective the PDK and the paddle operated sequential are very very different.
161BMW said:
I have always admired the technology in cars like TC ABS automatic parking
LC but I also appreciate the old school cars like E30 325 Sport M3 CS Manual
With NA straight sixes LSD Manual and have no TC or can at least disable TC
Be sure to let us know when you find the BMW E30 M3 that hasn't been crashed at some point LC but I also appreciate the old school cars like E30 325 Sport M3 CS Manual
With NA straight sixes LSD Manual and have no TC or can at least disable TC
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