RE: Megane 265 Cup and Subaru BRZ: Fast vs Fun
Discussion
toppstuff said:
Dblue said:
it outgrips everything in its class
Which is kind of why I don't want one. 
I think there is a time when you want your cars to be as fast and as grippy and as competent as it is possible for the money you have to spend.
For me , at least, I then grew out of that phase. And I don't care about absolute performance anymore. The roads are too busy anyway.
Thats when you want access to fun even when going slowly. I now find that I am more interested in classic cars than new ones, more interested a RWD Toyobaru which may slide about like an old Elise on my favourite roundabout.
I don't doubt the Megane would disappear down the road and carry a lot more speed. Technically, it would be doing a better job. But it would'nt matter to me.
It is great that we have choices now. This is a good time for people who love driving in terms of the different choices available. Everyone should be happy.
TheRoadWarrior said:
You talk about growing out of wanting cars that are as fast and grippy as possible; so why by a coupe? Shirly the purpose of a coupe is that you are sacrificing practicality; be it boot space, passenger comfort or capacity or NVH etc for performance? Now I understand performance doesn't necessarily mean 'going faster', but if all you want to do is go sideways then why not spend 5k on an old MX5 and fit some budget tyres?
If all you want to do is go fast, why not spend 5k on a tuned Impreza? Or a motorcycle?kambites said:
For me performance (be it in a straight line or 'round corners) is a means to an end, not an end in itself. The Megane is simply amazing - ditto other uber hatches like the old RS500 - but I'd honestly take the Toybaru if I had £25k to spend on a new car.
The GT-86 cannot depreciate fast enough in my view (with all due respect to current owners!) Can't wait to pick one up when they come into reach.
MarkRSi said:
toppstuff said:
Probably too fast on modern roads unfortunately.
I think this is the problem with hot hatches. You have to drive them hard to really appreciate the difference between the hot version and the regular shopping version. And that ain't easy these days.
Could you not argue that driving at the limits of grip of the 86 on the public road to appreciate the RWD balance is equally foolish? I think this is the problem with hot hatches. You have to drive them hard to really appreciate the difference between the hot version and the regular shopping version. And that ain't easy these days.
I guess it is more fun and probably more possible, to feel a car like a GT 86 give a little low speed wiggle on the way out of a bend, than to go around the bend at 900 leptons and attract the BiB.
And it is not necessary to get the back out with a "dab of oppo" either. In a nice RWD car just feeling the cars weight shift and move is enough to be interesting. More interesting than just endless amount of grip anyway.
Chris71 said:
kambites said:
For me performance (be it in a straight line or 'round corners) is a means to an end, not an end in itself. The Megane is simply amazing - ditto other uber hatches like the old RS500 - but I'd honestly take the Toybaru if I had £25k to spend on a new car.
The GT-86 cannot depreciate fast enough in my view (with all due respect to current owners!) Can't wait to pick one up when they come into reach.
http://www.evo.co.uk/videos/planetevovideos/288370...
The Ford is old school hot hatchery and I'd have the BRZ ahead of that any day of the week, the Renault is a scalpel by comparison.
Edited by Dblue on Friday 22 March 13:08
Well, it boils down to one thing, what do you want the car for?
If it's your only car, and you want something for a bit of fun, then both could tick the boxes. The Megane however is more practical, has a huge boot, and is a pleasure to commute with. It can however bring a huge grin to your face when you find a suitable road.
If you don't need the boot space or the roomier rear seats, then I'm sure the BRZ would be great too.
I've had the Megane for nearly 3 years and have loved every moment of it, and not long ago bought a Caterham too. They're very very different but strangely have a similar pace. Would a BRZ suit me? No, I don't need anything between the two cars, and as a replacement for the Megane it would be far less practical
If you're going to own one car- then you have to make a compromise somewhere. With the Megane, you're in a heavier car with more insulation less of that direct driving feel when you're going slowly. Admittedly, it's fantastic when you're going fast, but at low speeds, it's not as good. With the BRZ you get the fun factor at lower speeds, but less straight line pace and interior space is limited compared to the Megane.
Everyone's different. It's good we've got so much choice at the moment!
If it's your only car, and you want something for a bit of fun, then both could tick the boxes. The Megane however is more practical, has a huge boot, and is a pleasure to commute with. It can however bring a huge grin to your face when you find a suitable road.
If you don't need the boot space or the roomier rear seats, then I'm sure the BRZ would be great too.
I've had the Megane for nearly 3 years and have loved every moment of it, and not long ago bought a Caterham too. They're very very different but strangely have a similar pace. Would a BRZ suit me? No, I don't need anything between the two cars, and as a replacement for the Megane it would be far less practical
If you're going to own one car- then you have to make a compromise somewhere. With the Megane, you're in a heavier car with more insulation less of that direct driving feel when you're going slowly. Admittedly, it's fantastic when you're going fast, but at low speeds, it's not as good. With the BRZ you get the fun factor at lower speeds, but less straight line pace and interior space is limited compared to the Megane.
Everyone's different. It's good we've got so much choice at the moment!
GravelBen said:
Though it would also be interesting to find out how much of the Megane's advantage in corner speed is simple down to tyres. 235/40R18 Michelin PS2 vs 215/45R17 Michelin Primacy is quite a difference.
Those guys have tried and quite a difference was generated, even in standard size. http://www.roadandtrack.com/special-reports/scion-...0.94g is not too shabby, I wonder if the Renault could have matched that. Not that it matters anyway at that kind of level for a road car.
It goes to show maybe that (relative) light weight and a lower CoG go a long way to give you added lateral grip.
Edited by nickfrog on Friday 22 March 13:16
This debate about the GT86 (Or BRZ) will go on forever. Its the power that puts me off from the GT86. Yeah, its about driving it at 10/10ths I get that, and its great when you do. But for me, its rare I get to pelt it as my 9-5 job requires a short, traffic laden commute to and from work. So having that boost/torque just to exit a round about for 2 thirds a gear where theres a slight gap is sometimes what I want and TBH would keep me entertained during those journeys. Even on those rare occasions where the road is quiet and you do get to fully open the cars up I still think Id prefer the torque as even then I dont always feel like pinning the needle to the limiter, its not as though the Meg in this case isn't truly brilliant in all situations and honestly I don't see the 86 being better at anything except the driving position.
MikeG88 said:
This debate about the GT86 (Or BRZ) will go on forever. Its the power that puts me off from the GT86. Yeah, its about driving it at 10/10ths I get that, and its great when you do. But for me, its rare I get to pelt it as my 9-5 job requires a short, traffic laden commute to and from work. So having that boost/torque just to exit a round about for 2 thirds a gear where theres a slight gap is sometimes what I want and TBH would keep me entertained during those journeys. Even on those rare occasions where the road is quiet and you do get to fully open the cars up I still think Id prefer the torque as even then I dont always feel like pinning the needle to the limiter, its not as though the Meg in this case isn't truly brilliant in all situations and honestly I don't see the 86 being better at anything except the driving position.
If that's all I was using a car for, I wouldn't buy either of these, I would buy a large comfy automatic barge and chill out.Or take my bike.
doogz said:
GravelBen said:
300bhp/ton said:
GT86/BRZ 151ft-lb
2001 Honda CTR 145ft-lb
e92 BMW 320i 155ft-lb
You can't go using FACTS now 300, this is Pistonheads! 2001 Honda CTR 145ft-lb
e92 BMW 320i 155ft-lb
The F20 was in the S2000. The K20 was the Civic engine.
BTW Carfolio lists the S2k at 161ft-lb for the 2.0 version (evidently the 2.2 version makes more).
But the S2k is rather an isolated exception of a vehicle, hence my claim of "pretty much" rather definitely.
Also if we are talking mid range punch and make the assumption the engine can make PEAK torque at that rpm (which they probably don't), then best or worse case is:
@2000rpm
Honda S2000: 161ft-lb x 2000rpm / 5252 = 61bhp
BRZ: 151ft-lb x 2000rpm / 5252 = 58bhp
@4000rpm
Honda S2000: 161ft-lb x 4000rpm / 5252 = 123bhp
BRZ: 151ft-lb x 4000rpm / 5252 = 115bhp
Yes the crop of the cream S2k out performs it, but not by a massive amount at these revs. The BRZ/GT86 however is on par or beats 99% of all other n/a 2.0 petrol engines.
Dblue said:
Chris71 said:
kambites said:
For me performance (be it in a straight line or 'round corners) is a means to an end, not an end in itself. The Megane is simply amazing - ditto other uber hatches like the old RS500 - but I'd honestly take the Toybaru if I had £25k to spend on a new car.
The GT-86 cannot depreciate fast enough in my view (with all due respect to current owners!) Can't wait to pick one up when they come into reach.
http://www.evo.co.uk/videos/planetevovideos/288370...
The Ford is old school hot hatchery and I'd have the BRZ ahead of that any day of the week, the Renault is a scalpel by comparison.
The Toybaru isn't perfect either, but it has bags of steering feel (despite the EPAS) and sufficiently skinny tyres to be amusing on the road. You can enter the corners at quite low speeds, with a nice big safety margain, and then get on the throttle and feel the balance just starting to shift. To me it's one of the greatest pleasures in enthusiastic road driving and one that requires less commitment than you need to really get the best out of a good FWD chassis.
AFC1886 said:
The BRZ/GT86 is way too slow! Needs more power! The Renault will just break down as soon as you drive out of the showroom. If i had £25k to spend i definitely wouldn't buy any of these, i'd be buying a used Cayman instead!
sigh!26000 miles in my Trophy since Nov 2011 and not a single thing has broken, stopped working or let me down in any way at all.
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