RE: Alfa Romeo '5 Series' planned

[Black S2K]

MonkeyMatt said:

infradig said:

Just keep your fingers crossed they don't use the Fiat groups other rwd, 5series sized, 'executive' V6 diesel as the basis for the Alfa. I love mine but it would be a travesty of an Arna scale to use 1990's Merc underpinnings on an Alfa.

They will most likely base it on the new Maserati Ghibli

...which Maserati gets a bit touchy about, if you call it a Chrysler!

They maintain part of the floor and some other bits are, but they've changed most of it.

Of course, it won't sell and it will depreciate like a non-German E1-segment.

But Alfa needs the halo car and the world needs a few un-boring E-segments. Wspecially an Alfa.

I initially thought Marchionne was nuts. But I was wrong and I wish him well with it.

[anonymous-user]

Black S2K said:

MonkeyMatt said:

infradig said:

Just keep your fingers crossed they don't use the Fiat groups other rwd, 5series sized, 'executive' V6 diesel as the basis for the Alfa. I love mine but it would be a travesty of an Arna scale to use 1990's Merc underpinnings on an Alfa.

They will most likely base it on the new Maserati Ghibli

...which Maserati gets a bit touchy about, if you call it a Chrysler!

They maintain part of the floor and some other bits are, but they've changed most of it.

Of course, it won't sell and it will depreciate like a non-German E1-segment.

But Alfa needs the halo car and the world needs a few un-boring E-segments. Wspecially an Alfa.

I initially thought Marchionne was nuts. But I was wrong and I wish him well with it.

I thought the new Ghibli was based on the architecture of the recent quattroporte!?

[iSore]

I WISH said:

The 159 is a very handsome beast indeed .... made even more desirable by its relative scarcity ...and the 166 was lovely too.

If they build something that retains even 90% of the concept it should sell like hot cakes (hopefully!).

But the 159 flopped. It looked good, went quite well and handled well enough for most buyers to notice, but the public didn't want to know.
Considering BMW don't make a 3 litre six cylinder saloon, what chance do Alfas stand? Their only chance is to sell it as a low volume* and high priced exclusive product - pretty much what Maserati already do?
I'd love them to make a really superb rear drive V6 petrol saloon that kicks the 3 Series firmly and decisively up the arse. Anything but another sodding 320d or A4 TD-ous. The trouble is, I live in Sheffield, a large city - and I have no idea where the nearest Alfa dealer is. Not a clue.

• Guaranteed!

[kambites]

iSore said:

But the 159 flopped.

Did it? There seems to be a fair few of them around.

Obviously not as many as 3-series/A4/C-classes, but still quite a decent number.

[interloper]

I have a very big soft spot for big Alfas. I would love for this to work but even if they get the build quality right it seems so many people will trott out the usual tales of poor relaibility and woe, that Alfa would be on the back foot from the start.

[Alfahorn]

interloper said:

I have a very big soft spot for big Alfas. I would love for this to work but even if they get the build quality right it seems so many people will trott out the usual tales of poor relaibility and woe, that Alfa would be on the back foot from the start.

Yep, that sums it up fairly accurately.

[peter450]

Models just seem to spring up out of thin air to replace models that disapeared into thin air years ago, whatver happened to solid product cycles of launch, update, replace

In Alfa's case it seems to be launch and think about the rest later

Before they start on about replacing there 166 of how many years ago, maybe they should sort out the long overdue 159 replacement

[Baryonyx]

The 166 was beautiful. And at the time, so were the rest of the Alfa range. They aren't now, they're just another boring marque in a see of grey!

[Timberwolf]

I have a feeling "new big Alfa based on Maserati underpinnings" is a persistent industry rumour beaten in longevity only by "Ford to launch new Capri". It's certainly been around since the 166 facelift was fairly fresh.

The sad thing with Alfa is you can't help wanting them to do well. Even when you own one you want it to do well against odds that'd see you driving a lesser car to the first dodgy back-of-industrial-estate trader that'll take it. "It only ever let me down when it needed a new battery," I'd say of my 156 to a neighbour as I stood by the door, trying to hold the self-liberating fusebox cover behind my back where they couldn't see it and gritting my teeth in an attempt to convince myself that the time when all the fins fell out the radiator wasn't really letting me down as it still ran, just not for very long before needing to be parked up and cooled down.

The worst thing is they do now build reliable cars that are decently screwed together, amazingly doing so on the kind of budget BMW would consider insufficient for designing a branded pencil sharpener, but in finally getting there they've somehow lost some of that indefinable soul that for the old cars, even though you knew full well they'd crap a transaxle or turn a cambelt into confetti if given the slightest opportunity, made you need to have one.

Who knows, maybe they'll get it back. A niche product it may be, but the 4C certainly has a whole load of that impossible to quantify but easy to recognise Alfa-ness to it.

[Jimbo.]

Timberwolf said:

I have a feeling "new big Alfa based on Maserati underpinnings" is a persistent industry rumour beaten in longevity only by "Ford to launch new Capri". It's certainly been around since the 166 facelift was fairly fresh.

The sad thing with Alfa is you can't help wanting them to do well. Even when you own one you want it to do well against odds that'd see you driving a lesser car to the first dodgy back-of-industrial-estate trader that'll take it. "It only ever let me down when it needed a new battery," I'd say of my 156 to a neighbour as I stood by the door, trying to hold the self-liberating fusebox cover behind my back where they couldn't see it and gritting my teeth in an attempt to convince myself that the time when all the fins fell out the radiator wasn't really letting me down as it still ran, just not for very long before needing to be parked up and cooled down.

The worst thing is they do now build reliable cars that are decently screwed together, amazingly doing so on the kind of budget BMW would consider insufficient for designing a branded pencil sharpener, but in finally getting there they've somehow lost some of that indefinable soul that for the old cars, even though you knew full well they'd crap a transaxle or turn a cambelt into confetti if given the slightest opportunity, made you need to have one.

Who knows, maybe they'll get it back. A niche product it may be, but the 4C certainly has a whole load of that impossible to quantify but easy to recognise Alfa-ness to it.

As minor as they may be, the 159 still had small touches of Italian, ummm..design...such as the boot release being up on the roof. It wouldn't be an Alfa if you weren't swearing and laughing at the same time, whilst trying to do the most basic of things.

[Pr1964]

Twoshoe said:

Pr1964 said:

Maybe if they could build one with BMW Audi or Mercedes underpinnings ......

Otherwise forget it would just be another fragile unreliable half arsed saloon.

'fragile unreliable and half arsed' eh? I've had 5 164s and 2 166s (oh, and 3 156s and a GT), in which I've covered about 1/3 of a million miles. In all that time, apart from a few punctures, the only problem I had was with a battery failing.

The battery was German, btw.

Have you never had a BMW Mercedes or Audi ? If you had you'd know the difference.

I've had loads of Alfas in the past but after those painfully expensive and frustrating second rate quality experiences I would now only buy German.
Reliable Alfa that's a possible but rare experience they've always been made of inferior quality materials that’s not to say some materials on German doesn’t end up the same.

The real problem with Italian cars is the corner cutting the feeble quality and feel like the poor leather which is really just cardboard with a slither of leather glued to the surface and plastics recycled from food packaging then there’s the engine ancillaries which are designed to last just past warranty and the suspension with springs dampers and bushes which are designed to fall apart after said warranty period.

All that would be forgivable but these days the Germans design better looking cars than the Italians who either go over fussy or just go with pudding designs.

Alfa Romeo have zero hope of producing a decent saloon with the build quality of a German equivalent they can’t even build a decent small car, they lost the plot in the 80’s now they're finished... except for people who've never experienced quality..

The Germans throw billions at their new products the Italians are broke their products are a poor imitation of what they should be producing but they no longer have that ability or the money….. Pointless exercise how can they compete ... A. they can't

[deltashad]

Its not going to take over the management saloon car sector but the concept in my eyes looks fantastic. Way more adventurous than anything else i've seen.
Judging by the picture they will be hitting the passat cc, merc cls sports saloon segment.
Exactly where they should be. The 4c is a massive step in the right direction too, there is a place for all of the Fiat group brands without stepping on each others toes, too much.....

I personally wouldnt want them to become an overly common sight on the roads. Would take away some of the romance about them.
This right is preserved for audis and range rovers.

[trashbat]

Pr1964 said:

The Germans throw billions at their new products the Italians are broke their products are a poor imitation of what they should be producing but they no longer have that ability or the money….. Pointless exercise how can they compete ... A. they can't

The German Institute for Automotive Design, yesterday:



They must spend all the billions on toner, I guess.

[LuS1fer]

Pr1964 said:

Have you never had a BMW Mercedes or Audi ? If you had you'd know the difference.

I've had a vW Golf and it was fairly crap.

Pr1964 said:

I've had loads of Alfas in the past but after those painfully expensive and frustrating second rate quality experiences I would now only buy German.

I have to admit my Alfasuds were crap but my Alfetta was just as good as the contemporaneous 5 series. The Golf I had failed at just about everything. My sister had an E46 BMWv which eventually had to be atken back by BMW because it was utter crap and the engine had issues.

Pr1964 said:

Reliable Alfa that's a possible but rare experience they've always been made of inferior quality materials that’s not to say some materials on German doesn’t end up the same.

But that's the point, I suspect there are just as many Alfas still on the road as BMWs from the same era.

Pr1964 said:

The real problem with Italian cars is the corner cutting the feeble quality and feel like the poor leather which is really just cardboard with a slither of leather glued to the surface and plastics recycled from food packaging then there’s the engine ancillaries which are designed to last just past warranty and the suspension with springs dampers and bushes which are designed to fall apart after said warranty period.[/img]

I'm always reading on here about BMWs needing bushes.

Pr1964 said:

All that would be forgivable but these days the Germans design better looking cars than the Italians who either go over fussy or just go with pudding designs.

You must be blind. German cars are the benchmark for ugly.

Pr1964 said:

Alfa Romeo have zero hope of producing a decent saloon with the build quality of a German equivalent they can’t even build a decent small car, they lost the plot in the 80’s now they're finished... except for people who've never experienced quality..

I've experienced this quality but I don't buy a car for that. If I did, I'd buy a second hand Bentley. In any event, if you watched 5th Gear recently, they criticised the 5 series leather for looking like vinyl and the dash for being boring. What the Germans lack is any character.

Pr1964 said:

The Germans throw billions at their new products the Italians are broke their products are a poor imitation of what they should be producing but they no longer have that ability or the money….. Pointless exercise how can they compete ... A. they can't

Not with buyers like you they can't. Both VW and Mercedes went through shoddy periods where their cars rusted like hell but people like you still bought them, blinded by the theory. They had to up their game as a result but their cars are vastly more expensive. they also all look the same.

[AJS-]

That is gorgeous.

[Twoshoe]

Pr1964 said:

Twoshoe said:

Pr1964 said:

Maybe if they could build one with BMW Audi or Mercedes underpinnings ......

Otherwise forget it would just be another fragile unreliable half arsed saloon.

'fragile unreliable and half arsed' eh? I've had 5 164s and 2 166s (oh, and 3 156s and a GT), in which I've covered about 1/3 of a million miles. In all that time, apart from a few punctures, the only problem I had was with a battery failing.

The battery was German, btw.

Have you never had a BMW Mercedes or Audi ? If you had you'd know the difference.

I've had loads of Alfas in the past but after those painfully expensive and frustrating second rate quality experiences I would now only buy German.
Reliable Alfa that's a possible but rare experience they've always been made of inferior quality materials that’s not to say some materials on German doesn’t end up the same.

The real problem with Italian cars is the corner cutting the feeble quality and feel like the poor leather which is really just cardboard with a slither of leather glued to the surface and plastics recycled from food packaging then there’s the engine ancillaries which are designed to last just past warranty and the suspension with springs dampers and bushes which are designed to fall apart after said warranty period.

All that would be forgivable but these days the Germans design better looking cars than the Italians who either go over fussy or just go with pudding designs.

Alfa Romeo have zero hope of producing a decent saloon with the build quality of a German equivalent they can’t even build a decent small car, they lost the plot in the 80’s now they're finished... except for people who've never experienced quality..

The Germans throw billions at their new products the Italians are broke their products are a poor imitation of what they should be producing but they no longer have that ability or the money….. Pointless exercise how can they compete ... A. they can't

Yes, I have had German, and yes I do know the difference. And that difference is that Audis quite often left us stranded miles from home!

We had an ’04 Audi A4 that we took up to 160,000 miles. Beautifully made and solid, but reliable? No. Had far more problems with this than any Alfa. We replaced it with the current shape A4 which again was very well made etc, but had issues that the main dealer (Audi Bristol – they make a nice cup of coffee, but everything else about them was awful) could never resolve, and it was such a numb car to drive that we got rid of it after 3 months. I also have an 18 year-old W124 Merc E320 and that too feels hewn from solid, but more recent Mercs I have driven feel positively flimsy by comparison in my opinion. (I believe that the most recent ones are better though.)

I’ve also had a Golf but that did nothing for me in terms of reliability or build quality either.

I agree that 164s had quite a cheap feeling interior (even for a car designed in the ‘80s), but the 166 was a huge improvement, and was a very special place to be (still is). I also have never got the impression that the ancillaries are designed to fail just out of warranty; I believe the aforementioned 330,000-odd miles bears testament to that.

[Pr1964]

LuS1fer said:

Yes all valid points where the German products are concerned pre about 2007.

The German technology has moved on so far since then that Alfa has been left way way behind in almost every area excluding those which are bought in by all European manufacturers from the likes of Bosch, Borgwarner etc... it’s pointless for them the market share has been taken by German products.

Design as always, beauty is in the eye of the beholder I know I see a lot of BMW’s and think wow that looks nice and yet other BMW’s and think yuck thing is the Germans have every sector shape and format covered and Alfa don’t even make a single saloon of any variant …. They are unable to because every attempt ends up in failure 164 166 etc complete total failure low sales high customer frustration and lots of warranty claims which resulted in them not making a profit on any of them except maybe the 156 which was a nice looking but poorly built product. I guess they make money on all the parts they sell....

Go to Italy and you’ll see even the Italians now only buy BMW’s Mercedes and Audi’s as much as they’d like to buy a home build product they know it’s just buying into a pile of trouble and once they have experienced German quality they never go back. Ergo The end of Alfa saloons even on low production runs it’s pointless which is why they didn’t replace the 159 ,,,
Besides who wants a FWD Alfa the only good saloon Alfas were RWD..

It's a pity for a country renowned for their design prowess they appear incapable of building a car for this century as good looking as the Gullia Saloon of the 70’s.
And they insist on going FWD.

There is a big gap in the market for an Alfa Saloon with RWD and beautiful design but they just keep making FWD cars that look like they’re designed by the Japanese or Koreans….

[Pr1964]

Twoshoe said:

Yes, I have had German, and yes I do know the difference. And that difference is that Audis quite often left us stranded miles from home!

We had an ’04 Audi A4 that we took up to 160,000 miles. Beautifully made and solid, but reliable? No. Had far more problems with this than any Alfa. We replaced it with the current shape A4 which again was very well made etc, but had issues that the main dealer (Audi Bristol – they make a nice cup of coffee, but everything else about them was awful) could never resolve, and it was such a numb car to drive that we got rid of it after 3 months. I also have an 18 year-old W124 Merc E320 and that too feels hewn from solid, but more recent Mercs I have driven feel positively flimsy by comparison in my opinion. (I believe that the most recent ones are better though.)

I’ve also had a Golf but that did nothing for me in terms of reliability or build quality either.

I agree that 164s had quite a cheap feeling interior (even for a car designed in the ‘80s), but the 166 was a huge improvement, and was a very special place to be (still is). I also have never got the impression that the ancillaries are designed to fail just out of warranty; I believe the aforementioned 330,000-odd miles bears testament to that.

I had lots of w124's great cars ....
I now drive BMW's they have IMO as good a build quality as the old Merc's and their service and customer service is excellent compare to the new Mercedes robotic service people....
But I must have been unlucky with Alfas every one have been fraught with one issue or another.
Audi A4's are known for issues.
Maybe try BMW next the 2005-08 saloons are brilliant cars they're what Alfa would be making if they'd stuck with RWD Gullia and continued with improving the quality and engineering standards they had in the 70's.

I just can't ever see myself parting with my hard earned money for an Alfa when BMW's are so good, and they give all the excitement and more of the Italians..... It's a no brainer...

Edited by Pr1964 on Wednesday 27th March 09:56

[RichB]

Twoshoe said:

...I agree that 164s had quite a cheap feeling interior (even for a car designed in the ‘80s)...

I had two 164 V6 Lussos and I didn't think they felt cheap at all. Indeed with full Momo leather I felt they were a cut above my friends BMW 5 Series at the time. Certainly everyone who rode in the Alfa were surprised at how nice it was. I did around 150,000 in the second one and all they it ever needed was a clutch, an exhaust and one ABS sensor not bad eh!

[LuS1fer]

RichB said:

I had two 164 V6 Lussos and I didn't think they felt cheap at all. Indeed with full Momo leather I felt they were a cut above my friends BMW 5 Series at the time. Certainly everyone who rode in the Alfa were surprised at how nice it was. I did around 150,000 in the second one and all they it ever needed was a clutch, an exhaust and one ABS sensor not bad eh!

Exactly. It's all to do with "reputations" and it happens the German PR machine injected vast amounts of cash into building that "image" when the Italians spent money promoting their style and nice V6s.