RE: Alfa Romeo '5 Series' planned
Discussion
RichB said:
Twoshoe said:
...I agree that 164s had quite a cheap feeling interior (even for a car designed in the ‘80s)...
I had two 164 V6 Lussos and I didn't think they felt cheap at all. Indeed with full Momo leather I felt they were a cut above my friends BMW 5 Series at the time. Certainly everyone who rode in the Alfa were surprised at how nice it was. I did around 150,000 in the second one and all they it ever needed was a clutch, an exhaust and one ABS sensor not bad eh! Good to hear someone else helping to dispel the supposed unreliability myth btw.
Edited by Twoshoe on Wednesday 27th March 12:15
I have a foot in both camps having a Guiletta and a Scirrocco and being a serial Alfa addict in the past (164,155, 166, 156, GT, GTV etc!) I have a Scirrocco as it's my company car, and the poor value of residuals for the 159 mean none would fall into my band at work. It is a fantastic thing, quick, economical, looks smart ( to my eyes at least) everything works beautifully......but why am I thinking of opting out taking the cash and buying the best GTV I can find? Is it some sort of madness? The Germans just lack that bit of passion that the Alfa has in spades, although it is true the latest Alfa's the missus's Guilletta included have had a bit knocked out of them. The problem with the new ones is also that you have to use the main Alfa dealers, and this is where the real problems are with buying a new Alfa because they are universally s
t!
Isore, the dealer in Sheffield is Lookers, Alfa bit is tucked in a corner between Kia and Ford, but they are terrible. Autoworld in Chesterfield are better, but being best of the Alfa dealers is faint praise indeed...
I hope they build it though, cos I may be able to get a decent second hand one once it depreciation bottoms out!
t!Isore, the dealer in Sheffield is Lookers, Alfa bit is tucked in a corner between Kia and Ford, but they are terrible. Autoworld in Chesterfield are better, but being best of the Alfa dealers is faint praise indeed...
I hope they build it though, cos I may be able to get a decent second hand one once it depreciation bottoms out!
Pr1964 said:
Have you never had a BMW Mercedes or Audi ? If you had you'd know the difference.
I've had loads of Alfas in the past but after those painfully expensive and frustrating second rate quality experiences I would now only buy German.
Reliable Alfa that's a possible but rare experience they've always been made of inferior quality materials that’s not to say some materials on German doesn’t end up the same.
The real problem with Italian cars is the corner cutting the feeble quality and feel like the poor leather which is really just cardboard with a slither of leather glued to the surface and plastics recycled from food packaging then there’s the engine ancillaries which are designed to last just past warranty and the suspension with springs dampers and bushes which are designed to fall apart after said warranty period.
All that would be forgivable but these days the Germans design better looking cars than the Italians who either go over fussy or just go with pudding designs.
Alfa Romeo have zero hope of producing a decent saloon with the build quality of a German equivalent they can’t even build a decent small car, they lost the plot in the 80’s now they're finished... except for people who've never experienced quality..
The Germans throw billions at their new products the Italians are broke their products are a poor imitation of what they should be producing but they no longer have that ability or the money….. Pointless exercise how can they compete ... A. they can't
You are of course kidding? German build quality? In my circle of mates I have a few that work for BMW and VAG dealerships. If you had them as well, you'd know the whole German build quality myth is just that. They are all built to a price and the days when they were built to a higher standard than anything else have long gone. If you really think an Audi is more robust than a Fiat, you'll be in for a shock. Trust me, the Italians do not have the monopoly on mechanical and electrical problems. The debacle with the VAG and BMW 2.0 diesels kind of kills your argument dead. Google 'Audi TDi oil pump' and 'BMW N47 timing chain' and then tell us how reliable German stuff is.I've had loads of Alfas in the past but after those painfully expensive and frustrating second rate quality experiences I would now only buy German.
Reliable Alfa that's a possible but rare experience they've always been made of inferior quality materials that’s not to say some materials on German doesn’t end up the same.
The real problem with Italian cars is the corner cutting the feeble quality and feel like the poor leather which is really just cardboard with a slither of leather glued to the surface and plastics recycled from food packaging then there’s the engine ancillaries which are designed to last just past warranty and the suspension with springs dampers and bushes which are designed to fall apart after said warranty period.
All that would be forgivable but these days the Germans design better looking cars than the Italians who either go over fussy or just go with pudding designs.
Alfa Romeo have zero hope of producing a decent saloon with the build quality of a German equivalent they can’t even build a decent small car, they lost the plot in the 80’s now they're finished... except for people who've never experienced quality..
The Germans throw billions at their new products the Italians are broke their products are a poor imitation of what they should be producing but they no longer have that ability or the money….. Pointless exercise how can they compete ... A. they can't
Edit: just so you know, BMW Montana leather is in fact a few microns of leather on a vinyl base.But I'd still buy a BMW. Nothing to do with the reliability, I just prefer tha cars - modern Alfas don't do much for me whereas BMW's really are superb. I just don't buy into Ze German Built Kvality myth.
Edited by iSore on Thursday 28th March 12:10
Theres room for this.
Being sensible about Alfa can build a good quality car and the multi air engines are class leading.
VM Moturi can build a reliable diesel for the fleet boys (6 clyinders to keep the refinement up) with 240bhp, RWD, Italian leather and design and state of the art construction and whats not to like?
Being sensible about Alfa can build a good quality car and the multi air engines are class leading.
VM Moturi can build a reliable diesel for the fleet boys (6 clyinders to keep the refinement up) with 240bhp, RWD, Italian leather and design and state of the art construction and whats not to like?
Lots of talks on this thread about can Alfa compete? Compete in what way is the question. They wouldn't dream of aiming to sell as many cars as BMW 5 series, that isn't what their target would be. Their target would be to take a % share of 5 series, A6's and E class.
Whilst we are on that subject - I very sensible bought my wife a VW passat estate to drive around in. For the record, the handling is awful (unless you like boats), its boring and more importantly it is THE most unreliable car I have EVER owned. Honestly, more troublesome that the 1990 Lotus Esprit I owned.
Also, lots of talk on here about inferior build quality and materials. Even IF that were true, I think that's missing the point, and if that's you care about stick to your German equivalent. I currently have a year old BMW 320 M Sport Coupe. It's a great car, it really is. One of the best 'every day' cars I’ve had. Am I as proud of it as any of my Alfa? Nope. Does it make me feel as special as my 3.0V6 GTV did? Nothing like. Is it as entertaining and engaging on a wet b road as my E reg 75 V6 Veloce was? Nothing like.
What's that oft used PH phrase? "If you know, you know..."
The appeal of an Alfa Romeo isn't that it comes top of the driver power survey for reliability. (Although it does have to be reliable and modern Alfa’s are, in my experience, as reliable as other marques). Also, and this is very important, should Alfa Romeo build and sell this car in the UK and I can afford to buy one, I don’t want it to be as popular / competing in terms of sales volume with BMW, which frankly (even though I drive one) are bloody everywhere and offer very little in the way of exclusivity.
Whilst we are on that subject - I very sensible bought my wife a VW passat estate to drive around in. For the record, the handling is awful (unless you like boats), its boring and more importantly it is THE most unreliable car I have EVER owned. Honestly, more troublesome that the 1990 Lotus Esprit I owned.
Also, lots of talk on here about inferior build quality and materials. Even IF that were true, I think that's missing the point, and if that's you care about stick to your German equivalent. I currently have a year old BMW 320 M Sport Coupe. It's a great car, it really is. One of the best 'every day' cars I’ve had. Am I as proud of it as any of my Alfa? Nope. Does it make me feel as special as my 3.0V6 GTV did? Nothing like. Is it as entertaining and engaging on a wet b road as my E reg 75 V6 Veloce was? Nothing like.
What's that oft used PH phrase? "If you know, you know..."
The appeal of an Alfa Romeo isn't that it comes top of the driver power survey for reliability. (Although it does have to be reliable and modern Alfa’s are, in my experience, as reliable as other marques). Also, and this is very important, should Alfa Romeo build and sell this car in the UK and I can afford to buy one, I don’t want it to be as popular / competing in terms of sales volume with BMW, which frankly (even though I drive one) are bloody everywhere and offer very little in the way of exclusivity.
Edited by Benjamonk on Thursday 28th March 13:41
Edited by Benjamonk on Thursday 28th March 13:42
I don't believe the issue is anything to do with build quality.
Personally, I find the MiTo and Guiletta a bit ugly but they seem to do quite well compared withe the number of dealerships available.
I recently read that VW have just opened their 100th manufacturing plant, worldwide, where Ford have around 65. So Alfa are really competing as minnows in a shark pool.
The issue really is that the whole Mondeo sector died a few years back and those buyers left did choose BMW 5 series and Passats but I would argue that was because a Ghia badge was no longer good enough. I think the Alfa badge has managed to retain a status that, with a Maserati icing, could be the recipe for success but they shouldn't kid themselves the buyers are necessarily there as Saab and Volvo found to their cost.
Personally, I find the MiTo and Guiletta a bit ugly but they seem to do quite well compared withe the number of dealerships available.
I recently read that VW have just opened their 100th manufacturing plant, worldwide, where Ford have around 65. So Alfa are really competing as minnows in a shark pool.
The issue really is that the whole Mondeo sector died a few years back and those buyers left did choose BMW 5 series and Passats but I would argue that was because a Ghia badge was no longer good enough. I think the Alfa badge has managed to retain a status that, with a Maserati icing, could be the recipe for success but they shouldn't kid themselves the buyers are necessarily there as Saab and Volvo found to their cost.
LuS1fer said:
I don't believe the issue is anything to do with build quality.
Personally, I find the MiTo and Guiletta a bit ugly but they seem to do quite well compared withe the number of dealerships available.
I recently read that VW have just opened their 100th manufacturing plant, worldwide, where Ford have around 65. So Alfa are really competing as minnows in a shark pool.
The issue really is that the whole Mondeo sector died a few years back and those buyers left did choose BMW 5 series and Passats but I would argue that was because a Ghia badge was no longer good enough. I think the Alfa badge has managed to retain a status that, with a Maserati icing, could be the recipe for success but they shouldn't kid themselves the buyers are necessarily there as Saab and Volvo found to their cost.
I agree with both points. Just chatting to a mate who made the point that the Mito and Guiletta are ok, especially in cloverleaf form, they aren't stunning like the 159 was when that appeared on the scene.Personally, I find the MiTo and Guiletta a bit ugly but they seem to do quite well compared withe the number of dealerships available.
I recently read that VW have just opened their 100th manufacturing plant, worldwide, where Ford have around 65. So Alfa are really competing as minnows in a shark pool.
The issue really is that the whole Mondeo sector died a few years back and those buyers left did choose BMW 5 series and Passats but I would argue that was because a Ghia badge was no longer good enough. I think the Alfa badge has managed to retain a status that, with a Maserati icing, could be the recipe for success but they shouldn't kid themselves the buyers are necessarily there as Saab and Volvo found to their cost.
They are minows but could that add in terms of exclusivity? I think saab suffered from not producing a new car for far too long. Shame 'cos that new ill-fated 95 was really nice to drive.
I think Alfa's biggest problem (as others have already said) is cost. Not so much list price but PCP costs in comparison to the Germans. When i bought my £ series coupe i also looked at a Brera Italia Independant. It was gorgeous but would have cost be an extra £150 per month over the BMW, on cars that had the same asking price with £5.
Benjamonk said:
Lots of talks on this thread about can Alfa compete? Compete in what way is the question. They wouldn't dream of aiming to sell as many cars as BMW 5 series, that isn't what their target would be. Their target would be to take a % share of 5 series, A6's and E class.
Whilst we are on that subject - I very sensible bought my wife a VW passat estate to drive around in. For the record, the handling is awful (unless you like boats), its boring and more importantly it is THE most unreliable car I have EVER owned. Honestly, more troublesome that the 1990 Lotus Esprit I owned.
Also, lots of talk on here about inferior build quality and materials. Even IF that were true, I think that's missing the point, and if that's you care about stick to your German equivalent. I currently have a year old BMW 320 M Sport Coupe. It's a great car, it really is. One of the best 'every day' cars I’ve had. Am I as proud of it as any of my Alfa? Nope. Does it make me feel as special as my 3.0V6 GTV did? Nothing like. Is it as entertaining and engaging on a wet b road as my E reg 75 V6 Veloce was? Nothing like.
What's that oft used PH phrase? "If you know, you know..."
The appeal of an Alfa Romeo isn't that it comes top of the driver power survey for reliability. (Although it does have to be reliable and modern Alfa’s are, in my experience, as reliable as other marques). Also, and this is very important, should Alfa Romeo build and sell this car in the UK and I can afford to buy one, I don’t want it to be as popular / competing in terms of sales volume with BMW, which frankly (even though I drive one) are bloody everywhere and offer very little in the way of exclusivity.
Excellent post. Whilst we are on that subject - I very sensible bought my wife a VW passat estate to drive around in. For the record, the handling is awful (unless you like boats), its boring and more importantly it is THE most unreliable car I have EVER owned. Honestly, more troublesome that the 1990 Lotus Esprit I owned.
Also, lots of talk on here about inferior build quality and materials. Even IF that were true, I think that's missing the point, and if that's you care about stick to your German equivalent. I currently have a year old BMW 320 M Sport Coupe. It's a great car, it really is. One of the best 'every day' cars I’ve had. Am I as proud of it as any of my Alfa? Nope. Does it make me feel as special as my 3.0V6 GTV did? Nothing like. Is it as entertaining and engaging on a wet b road as my E reg 75 V6 Veloce was? Nothing like.
What's that oft used PH phrase? "If you know, you know..."
The appeal of an Alfa Romeo isn't that it comes top of the driver power survey for reliability. (Although it does have to be reliable and modern Alfa’s are, in my experience, as reliable as other marques). Also, and this is very important, should Alfa Romeo build and sell this car in the UK and I can afford to buy one, I don’t want it to be as popular / competing in terms of sales volume with BMW, which frankly (even though I drive one) are bloody everywhere and offer very little in the way of exclusivity.
Edited by Benjamonk on Thursday 28th March 13:41
Edited by Benjamonk on Thursday 28th March 13:42
E reg 75 Veloce? Was that a 2.5 V6 or an early 3.0? I had an E plater, but it was one of the last 1800 Carburettor twin cams.
iSore said:
Excellent post.
E reg 75 Veloce? Was that a 2.5 V6 or an early 3.0? I had an E plater, but it was one of the last 1800 Carburettor twin cams.
Thanks!E reg 75 Veloce? Was that a 2.5 V6 or an early 3.0? I had an E plater, but it was one of the last 1800 Carburettor twin cams.
Mine was a 3.0V6 Veloce in white. Loved it to bits. It was the second car i bought and was quite a step up from an Uno! And it was February and snowing heavily when i picked it up. Talk about learning curve to RWD :-) To this day, it's still one of the cars i look back on with great fondness. Truly, a proper motor car. traded that in for a 155 Q4.
I had a 1.8, a 2.0TS and a 3.0 V6 briefly, great cars all.
I had a very brief drive in a Q4 when I worked at an Alfa dealer in the 1990's, struck me as a very well kept secret. Not exciting like an Integrale but plenty of poke and a nice chasis. The 155 as a breed was much maligned. My dear old Mum bought one in 1995 - well, I bought it for her from the dealer I worked at as a 100'000 miles ex company car trade in. Healthy as a pig in st but the dampers were tired. We fitted a set of Konis (I seem to recall they were for a Tipo) and set up the geometry, and it handled superbly. K155SLR iirc, a red one on steels with plastic wheel trims. That old all alloy Twin Spark engine was a real peach.
Although it had a lot going for it, I never warmed to the 156 really - a bit 'all fur coat and no knickers'.
I had a very brief drive in a Q4 when I worked at an Alfa dealer in the 1990's, struck me as a very well kept secret. Not exciting like an Integrale but plenty of poke and a nice chasis. The 155 as a breed was much maligned. My dear old Mum bought one in 1995 - well, I bought it for her from the dealer I worked at as a 100'000 miles ex company car trade in. Healthy as a pig in s
t but the dampers were tired. We fitted a set of Konis (I seem to recall they were for a Tipo) and set up the geometry, and it handled superbly. K155SLR iirc, a red one on steels with plastic wheel trims. That old all alloy Twin Spark engine was a real peach.Although it had a lot going for it, I never warmed to the 156 really - a bit 'all fur coat and no knickers'.
I almost feel the better cars get with build quality the less engaged we are with them.
I really like my Mercedes, it does absolutely everything better than my Lancia other than give me driving satisfaction, the wafting and ambience from its over-cream leather and wood interior with pillarless elegance gives me a different high. Don't get me wrong it's a good drive. Powerful and handles surprisingly well, I can whack it around pretty much every bend and the continentals stick it to the road, when they do lose grip its never scary, everything works, I get a small amount of respect on the road.
The old Italian cars have quirks, a window may not go up and down as fast as the opposite one, a door lock may need a bit of WD40 once a week, it may need to be given oil three times before the next service interval, the coolant system needs to be checked. It blows a light bulb way too often. But it's the same as a hot girlfriend. Hard work but sometimes you'll smile more than you could ever smile. And occasionally someone looks and just knows, they give you a thumbs up.
I need to drive an old Alfa, I want to drive a sorted 75.
I'm not sure if the more modern Alfa's, Fiats or Lancia's(Chrysler's) can deliver anything interesting to the table now. The pursuit of build quality and mass appeal may have driven away the real enthusiasts who were looking for a little something else. I hope they go back to building machines from the heart before QC, worry about that later. The only thing they should concern themselves with is emissions. Keep the road tax low and cars will move.
I've never bought a car because it has a reputation for build quality. This is what separates us. You know who you are. You are probably very good at everything, especially number crunching. You probably also manage to keep a very respectable car on your driveway all year round and it's so new it never needs to be MOT'd. What colour will you choose this year?
I really like my Mercedes, it does absolutely everything better than my Lancia other than give me driving satisfaction, the wafting and ambience from its over-cream leather and wood interior with pillarless elegance gives me a different high. Don't get me wrong it's a good drive. Powerful and handles surprisingly well, I can whack it around pretty much every bend and the continentals stick it to the road, when they do lose grip its never scary, everything works, I get a small amount of respect on the road.
The old Italian cars have quirks, a window may not go up and down as fast as the opposite one, a door lock may need a bit of WD40 once a week, it may need to be given oil three times before the next service interval, the coolant system needs to be checked. It blows a light bulb way too often. But it's the same as a hot girlfriend. Hard work but sometimes you'll smile more than you could ever smile. And occasionally someone looks and just knows, they give you a thumbs up.
I need to drive an old Alfa, I want to drive a sorted 75.
I'm not sure if the more modern Alfa's, Fiats or Lancia's(Chrysler's) can deliver anything interesting to the table now. The pursuit of build quality and mass appeal may have driven away the real enthusiasts who were looking for a little something else. I hope they go back to building machines from the heart before QC, worry about that later. The only thing they should concern themselves with is emissions. Keep the road tax low and cars will move.
I've never bought a car because it has a reputation for build quality. This is what separates us. You know who you are. You are probably very good at everything, especially number crunching. You probably also manage to keep a very respectable car on your driveway all year round and it's so new it never needs to be MOT'd. What colour will you choose this year?
deltashad said:
I'm not sure if the more modern Alfa's, Fiats or Lancia's(Chrysler's) can deliver anything interesting to the table now. The pursuit of build quality and mass appeal may have driven away the real enthusiasts who were looking for a little something else.
Alfa has become (or will soon become) another brand. Bascially, we 've fallen out of love with cars. Driving is now such a pain in the arse that we want cars to be as easy to use as possible. You can't even have so much ads a characteful exhaust note now in case it scares away would-be buyers.MonkeyMatt said:
Black S2K said:
MonkeyMatt said:
infradig said:
Just keep your fingers crossed they don't use the Fiat groups other rwd, 5series sized, 'executive' V6 diesel as the basis for the Alfa. I love mine but it would be a travesty of an Arna scale to use 1990's Merc underpinnings on an Alfa.
They will most likely base it on the new Maserati Ghibli They maintain part of the floor and some other bits are, but they've changed most of it.
Of course, it won't sell and it will depreciate like a non-German E1-segment.
But Alfa needs the halo car and the world needs a few un-boring E-segments. Wspecially an Alfa.
I initially thought Marchionne was nuts. But I was wrong and I wish him well with it.
iSore said:
I WISH said:
The 159 is a very handsome beast indeed .... made even more desirable by its relative scarcity ...and the 166 was lovely too.
If they build something that retains even 90% of the concept it should sell like hot cakes (hopefully!).
But the 159 flopped. It looked good, went quite well and handled well enough for most buyers to notice, but the public didn't want to know.If they build something that retains even 90% of the concept it should sell like hot cakes (hopefully!).
Considering BMW don't make a 3 litre six cylinder saloon, what chance do Alfas stand? Their only chance is to sell it as a low volume* and high priced exclusive product - pretty much what Maserati already do?
I'd love them to make a really superb rear drive V6 petrol saloon that kicks the 3 Series firmly and decisively up the arse. Anything but another sodding 320d or A4 TD-ous. The trouble is, I live in Sheffield, a large city - and I have no idea where the nearest Alfa dealer is. Not a clue.
- Guaranteed!
Did they eventually fix it? Trouble is, the damage in done to its reputation by then.
The biggest problem though is lease rates; ze Germans have the market rigged/sewn up and cheap leases become a self-fulfilling prophecy and they're everywhere.
Of course, Alfa's whistling depreciation makes them rather uncompetitive, and that also becomes self-fulfilling.
The 159 was alright really. It wasn't as lithe as a 3 Series but not much is. It was like driving an A4 or a Mondeo, i.e a well sorted but unremarkable mid range saloon. I think half the problem was that the 159 came directly after the 156, a car that exposed record numbers of buyers to the Alfa dealer experience.
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