RE: Tesla to post first-ever profits
Discussion
I too saw the car in the miami showroom in january too... the pricing in the usa is acceptable, but the uk pricing is absolutely bonkers....
one drove past me on the highway in california last year - has great presence on the road ;-)
i think its good that they are getting usa investment..as another poster says - profits are what repays debts :-)
one drove past me on the highway in california last year - has great presence on the road ;-)
i think its good that they are getting usa investment..as another poster says - profits are what repays debts :-)
kambites said:
I was under the impression that peak load on the grid was during the working day. I think industry draws more power than domestic usage?
I think you are right, but still a big demand around 6-8pm and if we all plugged cars in, it could look quite different: http://www.nationalgrid.com/uk/Electricity/Data/Re...
Haven't driven a Tesla, personally, but done a lot of research behind, and miles behind the wheel, of hybrid cars: I'm a huge fan of electric power - the acceleration from 0-20/30 mph is awesome (electric motors produce maximum torque from rest), so you'll win the traffic-light GP every time, with a half decent power output electric/hybrid car. They absolutely make sense as a city car, for this reason and much much cheaper to run than anything with similar performance.
In ten years time, when Tesla is worth $33 bn, you'll all be wishing you'd taken a punt...
Don't knock it 'til you've tried it
In ten years time, when Tesla is worth $33 bn, you'll all be wishing you'd taken a punt...
Don't knock it 'til you've tried it
kVA said:
Just an afterthought - don't forget these sales are predominantly in a market with petrol 1/4 of the price it is here! If someone here gets the range / pricing issue sorted, with a desirable package, they'll make a mint
It's not quite that cheap mate. Especially in California. zebedee said:
I think you are right, but still a big demand around 6-8pm and if we all plugged cars in, it could look quite different:
http://www.nationalgrid.com/uk/Electricity/Data/Re...
Charge a large tariff for that period that is cheaper after 8pm.... Still 10hrs left to fill most people's cars aswell.http://www.nationalgrid.com/uk/Electricity/Data/Re...
McSam said:
Mezzanine said:
McSam said:
So when that New York Times journo published an article explaining exactly how far short of Tesla's claims the Model S falls, and Musk went absolutely apes
t trying to sue them for millions of dollars' damages, he was talking total bks when he claimed the article had cost them thousands of sales?
Imagine that.
I quite like what the company is doing, but that guy is a clown.
How dare he get so worked up by a massively influencial national 'voice' so publically damning his products and company which he has spent ten years trying gradually to build and gain a tiny foothold in the market.t trying to sue them for millions of dollars' damages, he was talking total bks when he claimed the article had cost them thousands of sales?Imagine that.
I quite like what the company is doing, but that guy is a clown.
It is not like the potential customers of his company are often sitting on the fence or dubious of a 'new' technology and are therefore easier to scare away from buying is it?
I mean he should just sit back and relax.
What a clown indeed...
He then proceeded to make outlandish claims of huge losses, and a rather sharp interviewer did the sum and asked him if he actually had lost however many thousand orders would be needed to cause such losses. He backpedalled rapidly saying "oh at least a couple of hundred might be cancelling partly due to this", again with no figures ever surfacing. He spat the dummy out big time just because someone dared publish something that didn't agree with his claims - can you imagine a "mature" manufacturer trying to sue a news outlet for reviewing a car?
He has form for this too, see Top Gear. He just seems very, very immature and that doesn't impress me in the slightest.
I am sure there have been plenty of lawsuits filed by mature manufacturers over the years in order to protect their products and image. Whilst I agree they may present it better, it remains the same principle. They would not sit back and accept it so why should Musk?
There is plenty of examples of manufacturers throwing their toys out of the pram at certain reviews/reviewers of their cars too. Some of which are well renowned on this very forum nonetheless...
Tesla/Musk are pushing against the tide with their products into a mature industry which holds plenty of political clout itself and with its associated industries (oil for example).
Whilst Tesla deserve to be challenged at all stages, I think they should be applauded for bothering to try and make a difference. Given this a car lovers forum, I am surprised at the generally negative/neutral feeling shown in this thread.
The little I have seen of the Model S is extremely impressive given the youth and inexperience of the company. There are many larger manufactures who have presented much less sophisticated concepts of the future despite all the money and experience you could ever wish to throw at a problem.
Dischordant said:
And then of course use the TVR for weekends =)
I remember reading a while ago that is starting to ring true. Annoyingly it was Jay Leno that said it. Basically the modern car is what the horse was 150 years ago, an essential tool for most people that owned one. However, as cars became more advanced and practical, the horse became less important. What he was basically getting at is that horses still have their place for enthusiasts/hobbyists, and petrol powered cars will eventually be the same. I've no doubt that electric/hydrogen cars are the future, but there'll always be a market for traditional cars.
I wonder if in 50 years time Motorheads/Gearheads (patent pending) forum will be full of people complaining about TVR/Jag/BMW etal owners dumping fluids on the road, just like we do with horses now
kVA said:
Haven't driven a Tesla, personally, but done a lot of research behind, and miles behind the wheel, of hybrid cars: I'm a huge fan of electric power - the acceleration from 0-20/30 mph is awesome (electric motors produce maximum torque from rest), so you'll win the traffic-light GP every time, with a half decent power output electric/hybrid car. They absolutely make sense as a city car, for this reason and much much cheaper to run than anything with similar performance.
In ten years time, when Tesla is worth $33 bn, you'll all be wishing you'd taken a punt...
Don't knock it 'til you've tried it
To really get a kick you need a DC motor and cars tend to convert the power to AC, also the engineer in creep - like an auto - so as soon as you take your foot off the brake you start moving. I was disappointed in the acceleration feel of the Leaf.In ten years time, when Tesla is worth $33 bn, you'll all be wishing you'd taken a punt...
Don't knock it 'til you've tried it
Simon
Something I posted on another site..
Looking at the Wikipedia entry Tesla has raised over $400m. That doesn't include another $465m of US government loan (although I think some of that got rescinded) and $10m from the State of Texas to build their new gull-wing MPV there. I seem to remember some Toyota investment too.
So It's pushing a billion dollars in investment to sell 10,000 cars.
They first shipped the Roadster in 2008, they have taken over four years to ship 10,000 cars. They paid Lotus for a large number of "gliders" (the carbon fibre body, and Lotus tech chassis) they never used.
If they make $5,000 dollars per car on the Tesla S, assuming a $50,000 (plus taxes) and a margin of 10% 200,000 cars. That's 80 years at their current run rate.
Even if they could do what has taken them over four years to do, every year and ship 10,000 cars a year that's 20 years. Remember this is premium priced car with only one model and almost no distribution or service network. The Only premium car in the top 100 is the Mercedes E-Class and that sells 200k a year.
At 10k a year you are looking to outsell the Ford Fusion or sell twice as many as Mercedes does with the R-Class (mm, always lusted after an R63). It would have to sell on a par with Porsche Boxster/Cayman, and I just can't see it doing that.
A billion dollars isn't par-for-the course in car factories, it's ten times what McLaren has spent on it's new beautiful state of the art factory.
The biggest danger however - and I think they found this with the Roadster - is market saturation. Yes, there is a pent up demand for electric cars, but it's a limited pent up demand. It's very easy to saturate. They might have a waiting list at the moment but once the demand is sated they won't see on-going orders.
Ghosn has bet the farm on electric and they only sold 26k Leafs (way below predictions) and 10k Twizzys, again globally with sales and service networks. And they lose money on the Leaf. Last year there were 1,000 electric charging points put into London to service 1,000 cars sold. And that includes things like the G-Whizz.
It's very hard to see that the demand is there for electric cars, and even if there was it would be very unlikely for a new entrant to win against the established manufacturers.
This isn't a tirade against the electric car, I've driven both Tesla Roadsters and Nissan Leafs (Leaves..) and they are amusing and interesting but at the blind faith the investors have in Tesla.
Looking at the Wikipedia entry Tesla has raised over $400m. That doesn't include another $465m of US government loan (although I think some of that got rescinded) and $10m from the State of Texas to build their new gull-wing MPV there. I seem to remember some Toyota investment too.
So It's pushing a billion dollars in investment to sell 10,000 cars.
They first shipped the Roadster in 2008, they have taken over four years to ship 10,000 cars. They paid Lotus for a large number of "gliders" (the carbon fibre body, and Lotus tech chassis) they never used.
If they make $5,000 dollars per car on the Tesla S, assuming a $50,000 (plus taxes) and a margin of 10% 200,000 cars. That's 80 years at their current run rate.
Even if they could do what has taken them over four years to do, every year and ship 10,000 cars a year that's 20 years. Remember this is premium priced car with only one model and almost no distribution or service network. The Only premium car in the top 100 is the Mercedes E-Class and that sells 200k a year.
At 10k a year you are looking to outsell the Ford Fusion or sell twice as many as Mercedes does with the R-Class (mm, always lusted after an R63). It would have to sell on a par with Porsche Boxster/Cayman, and I just can't see it doing that.
A billion dollars isn't par-for-the course in car factories, it's ten times what McLaren has spent on it's new beautiful state of the art factory.
The biggest danger however - and I think they found this with the Roadster - is market saturation. Yes, there is a pent up demand for electric cars, but it's a limited pent up demand. It's very easy to saturate. They might have a waiting list at the moment but once the demand is sated they won't see on-going orders.
Ghosn has bet the farm on electric and they only sold 26k Leafs (way below predictions) and 10k Twizzys, again globally with sales and service networks. And they lose money on the Leaf. Last year there were 1,000 electric charging points put into London to service 1,000 cars sold. And that includes things like the G-Whizz.
It's very hard to see that the demand is there for electric cars, and even if there was it would be very unlikely for a new entrant to win against the established manufacturers.
This isn't a tirade against the electric car, I've driven both Tesla Roadsters and Nissan Leafs (Leaves..) and they are amusing and interesting but at the blind faith the investors have in Tesla.
zebedee said:
kambites said:
I was under the impression that peak load on the grid was during the working day. I think industry draws more power than domestic usage?
I think you are right, but still a big demand around 6-8pm and if we all plugged cars in, it could look quite different: http://www.nationalgrid.com/uk/Electricity/Data/Re...
It is not worth our business shutting down for these periods due to lost production (which would cost us greater than the charges) and we get upto 20 warnings per year.
The example data given is presumably from the bank holiday weekend?
Surely getting over peak shoulder demand is easy. Just make sure the chargers only switch on at 22:00. Problem resolved for about £5. Getting over the peak shoulder demand is a far bigger problem for the UK to resolve in the short term.....
Mike
A Scotsman said:
In 2009 there were 254.4 million cars in the USA. 4750 Tesla registrations doesn't seem like a major market penetration.
Put it into context and it's pretty much the same as the number of TVR Chimeras (the highest volume TVR) sold but in 9 months.With a recent competitor in mind Porsche sold ~6,375( 8,500 for 2012) in the same period. These cars cost approximately the same so you would expect them to appeal to people in the same earning band
simonrockman said:
Ghosn has bet the farm on electric and they only sold 26k Leafs (way below predictions) and 10k Twizzys, again globally with sales and service networks. And they lose money on the Leaf. Last year there were 1,000 electric charging points put into London to service 1,000 cars sold. And that includes things like the G-Whizz.
It's very hard to see that the demand is there for electric cars, and even if there was it would be very unlikely for a new entrant to win against the established manufacturers.
This isn't a tirade against the electric car, I've driven both Tesla Roadsters and Nissan Leafs (Leaves..) and they are amusing and interesting but at the blind faith the investors have in Tesla.
Tough one as the infrastructure (in the UK at least) is not there to provide reliable use for electric throughout the country so that stifles demand somewhat. The vehicles, even with government help, are too expensive against comparable fossil fuelled models so people are unlikely to swap which again limits demand and need for infrastructure investment.It's very hard to see that the demand is there for electric cars, and even if there was it would be very unlikely for a new entrant to win against the established manufacturers.
This isn't a tirade against the electric car, I've driven both Tesla Roadsters and Nissan Leafs (Leaves..) and they are amusing and interesting but at the blind faith the investors have in Tesla.
The real demand will not be there until there is a tangible threat to fossil fuel that Joe Bloggs can feel/see, then the market will expand properly. Trouble is that could be 5,10 or 15 years down the line!
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