RE: Tesla to post first-ever profits
Discussion
I think a lot of people are basing their theories on current demand and trends... We are only one bit of legislation (or one radical budget) away from seeing a massive shift towards alternative fuels. When this happens (and I say when deliberately), companies like Tesla, Toyota and the like, will have such a massive head-start in this market.
The vast majority of the European car-buying public are very sceptical about new technologies - particularly reliability and realisation of marketing 'hype' - so anyone with a track record of producing these cars and selling them in any sort of numbers, without catastrophic negative feedback, will clean up (excuse the pun
)
The future is not in 'plug-in' electric cars - it is in fuel cells, providing the electricity on the hoof... All it would take is one or more of the fuel distributors to invest in widespread hydrogen supply and the only argument left against electric cars will be the lack of a V8 soundtrack
Trust me, a Tesla with a fuel cell on board would be an awesome car, with at least the operating range of any petrol powered sports car...
As I said above, 90% of their sales are in a market that isn't really hurting, in terms of petrol prices / CO2 taxation.
The vast majority of the European car-buying public are very sceptical about new technologies - particularly reliability and realisation of marketing 'hype' - so anyone with a track record of producing these cars and selling them in any sort of numbers, without catastrophic negative feedback, will clean up (excuse the pun
)The future is not in 'plug-in' electric cars - it is in fuel cells, providing the electricity on the hoof... All it would take is one or more of the fuel distributors to invest in widespread hydrogen supply and the only argument left against electric cars will be the lack of a V8 soundtrack
Trust me, a Tesla with a fuel cell on board would be an awesome car, with at least the operating range of any petrol powered sports car...As I said above, 90% of their sales are in a market that isn't really hurting, in terms of petrol prices / CO2 taxation.
McWigglebum4th said:
Not surprising considering their petrol prices. 
Out of curiosity, how many cars does Lotus produce and what is the company currently valued at? Anyone know off the top of their head?
RJP001 said:
What was that car which James May drove in one of the Top Gears? He drove it in America I think and it had solar panels on the roof, and to be honest, looked pretty cool?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisker_Karma
glazbagun said:
McWigglebum4th said:
Not surprising considering their petrol prices. Out of curiosity, how many cars does Lotus produce and what is the company currently valued at? Anyone know off the top of their head?
reuters said:
Norway's tax breaks on the purchase for electric cars are worth almost $11,000, or $1,400 a year over a car's lifetime, according to a study by Statistics Norway analyst Bjart Holtsmark.
Commuters driving into Oslo from the surrounding areas save an annual $1,400 in road tolls, can get free parking worth $5,000 and avoid other charges of $400.
It all adds up to as much as $8,200 per car, per year, before taking account of the benefit of driving in the bus lane rather than sitting in a queue with other cars.
dtmpower said:
RJP001 said:
What was that car which James May drove in one of the Top Gears? He drove it in America I think and it had solar panels on the roof, and to be honest, looked pretty cool?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisker_KarmaAlso unlike the Tesla, the Fisker's roof is covered in solar panels which actually charge the main traction battery so at the very least it keeps a maintenenace charge up, and if left for a while (say at airport parking) it will charge itself completely and give you a free 50 miles of charge.
Given that the Fisker is pretty much the same price as the top line Tesla, but seemingly has none of the downsides, I struggle to see why Tesla are doing so much better than Fisker, as the Fisker is the better product for today's market.
Southie01 said:
$465 million, Which they have arranged to repay 5 years early...
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-03-08/tesla-pla...
Bloomberg.... Hmmmhttp://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-03-08/tesla-pla...
"with deliveries expected to hit 20000 in 2013"
Go billionaire plaything
dtmpower said:
Yes please. I would be happier with one of these than a Pruisthingyjellyblob, and it's a first for an electric-power based type style car that I like a lot. Would love to have a go in one!KarlMac said:
Will be interesting to see how Tesla get on with some competition in the market. Fisker has some clout behind them now.
If they want to truly live up to the Tesla name they should have a great idea and get it nicked
Why Tesla are likely to win, good quality engineering. Their motors and batteries are substantially lighter than their competitors and they offer a very long warranty. They can do all this because they bought the best EV technology back in 2003 and then kept advancing it. An example of this is the model S drivetrain which takes up hardly any space and allows the car to be no more than 5-10% heavier than its rivals.If they want to truly live up to the Tesla name they should have a great idea and get it nicked
Compare to Fisker, a company set up a few years later by a felt tip fairy to try and cash in on electric vehicles. It has a complicated drive train which weighs around 1000-1200kg on its own and requires the engine to kick in to deliver maximum performance plus takes up half the cabin space. The motors they have there are huge because they are relatively low speed (3800rpm) permanent magnet motors bought off the shelf. Teslas motors are a proprietary design that spin at 15,000rpm so are fraction of the size and weight for a given output.
This is why the Karma weights 300kg more than the Tesla and seats 4 people (just) where as the Tesla seats 5 people in a spacious cabin and can fit 2 kids in the boot (where they are not within the crumple zone apparently).
Why is Tesla worth $3 billion, it's not because they are likely to sell millions of Model S. It's because they have built a fairly decent stock of EV intellectual property. Other car companies are likely to want to licence those technologies at some point in time.
The really long term future issue is that electric vehicles are likely to go hand in hand with self drive vehicles. When that happens expect that the clever self drive bits will probably be supplied by Google and the drive line by Tesla. The assembly will be the low value component and will be carried out by the lowest bidder because these vehicles will be operated by fleet operators. Customers will care about reliability of services, cleanliness and comfort. The car as we know it will be dead.
On this site an electrical engineer goes into great depth as to why the Tesla is sound and the Fisker is Mickey Mouse:
http://twinkle_toes_engineering.home.comcast.net/~... electric car motors --- Fisker Karma vs Tesla Model S
Also Tesla Model S versus M5 drag race.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvHTN0Yi1t4
Edited by Talksteer on Wednesday 3rd April 00:24
dvs_dave said:
Given that the Fisker is pretty much the same price as the top line Tesla, but seemingly has none of the downsides, I struggle to see why Tesla are doing so much better than Fisker, as the Fisker is the better product for today's market.
As I said above - credibility, experience and actually getting a product to market before anyone else...Ask anyone in the street if they've ever heard of Fisker... Then ask again if they've heard of Tesla - bet you'll get 10 times as many say yes to the second question
Same thing if you ask people to name a hybrid electric car - most will say Prius or Lexus, yet we all know there are loads more on the market - the early bird really does catch the worm in marketing clout... Followers have to be SO much better, to steal a lead and the Fisker isn't even as good, technically, let alone better!
kVA said:
dvs_dave said:
Given that the Fisker is pretty much the same price as the top line Tesla, but seemingly has none of the downsides, I struggle to see why Tesla are doing so much better than Fisker, as the Fisker is the better product for today's market.
As I said above - credibility, experience and actually getting a product to market before anyone else...Ask anyone in the street if they've ever heard of Fisker... Then ask again if they've heard of Tesla - bet you'll get 10 times as many say yes to the second question
Same thing if you ask people to name a hybrid electric car - most will say Prius or Lexus, yet we all know there are loads more on the market - the early bird really does catch the worm in marketing clout... Followers have to be SO much better, to steal a lead and the Fisker isn't even as good, technically, let alone better!
However the elephant in the room is the simple fact that a Tesla can't reliably and without worry get you more than 100 miles away from base. And you start drag racing with it, it's not even going to get you to the next set of lights, let alone home in the same day. As an engineering exercise it's impressive, but in terms of practicality the Tesla "system" is deeply flawed, and will remain so for the foreseeable future.
dvs_dave said:
However the elephant in the room is the simple fact that a Tesla can't reliably and without worry get you more than 100 miles away from base. And you start drag racing with it, it's not even going to get you to the next set of lights, let alone home in the same day. As an engineering exercise it's impressive, but in terms of practicality the Tesla "system" is deeply flawed, and will remain so for the foreseeable future.
Its not as if you can call the AA to come along and fill up your electric carhttp://green.autoblog.com/2013/03/29/aaa-first-fas...
As you have to call the AAA
Talksteer said:
Why Tesla are likely to win, good quality engineering. Their motors and batteries are substantially lighter than their competitors and they offer a very long warranty. They can do all this because they bought the best EV technology back in 2003 and then kept advancing it. An example of this is the model S drivetrain which takes up hardly any space and allows the car to be no more than 5-10% heavier than its rivals.
Compare to Fisker, a company set up a few years later by a felt tip fairy to try and cash in on electric vehicles. It has a complicated drive train which weighs around 1000-1200kg on its own and requires the engine to kick in to deliver maximum performance plus takes up half the cabin space. The motors they have there are huge because they are relatively low speed (3800rpm) permanent magnet motors bought off the shelf. Teslas motors are a proprietary design that spin at 15,000rpm so are fraction of the size and weight for a given output.
This is why the Karma weights 300kg more than the Tesla and seats 4 people (just) where as the Tesla seats 5 people in a spacious cabin and can fit 2 kids in the boot (where they are not within the crumple zone apparently).
Why is Tesla worth $3 billion, it's not because they are likely to sell millions of Model S. It's because they have built a fairly decent stock of EV intellectual property. Other car companies are likely to want to licence those technologies at some point in time.
The really long term future issue is that electric vehicles are likely to go hand in hand with self drive vehicles. When that happens expect that the clever self drive bits will probably be supplied by Google and the drive line by Tesla. The assembly will be the low value component and will be carried out by the lowest bidder because these vehicles will be operated by fleet operators. Customers will care about reliability of services, cleanliness and comfort. The car as we know it will be dead.
On this site an electrical engineer goes into great depth as to why the Tesla is sound and the Fisker is Mickey Mouse:
http://twinkle_toes_engineering.home.comcast.net/~... electric car motors --- Fisker Karma vs Tesla Model S
Also Tesla Model S versus M5 drag race.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvHTN0Yi1t4
insightful and informative - thanksCompare to Fisker, a company set up a few years later by a felt tip fairy to try and cash in on electric vehicles. It has a complicated drive train which weighs around 1000-1200kg on its own and requires the engine to kick in to deliver maximum performance plus takes up half the cabin space. The motors they have there are huge because they are relatively low speed (3800rpm) permanent magnet motors bought off the shelf. Teslas motors are a proprietary design that spin at 15,000rpm so are fraction of the size and weight for a given output.
This is why the Karma weights 300kg more than the Tesla and seats 4 people (just) where as the Tesla seats 5 people in a spacious cabin and can fit 2 kids in the boot (where they are not within the crumple zone apparently).
Why is Tesla worth $3 billion, it's not because they are likely to sell millions of Model S. It's because they have built a fairly decent stock of EV intellectual property. Other car companies are likely to want to licence those technologies at some point in time.
The really long term future issue is that electric vehicles are likely to go hand in hand with self drive vehicles. When that happens expect that the clever self drive bits will probably be supplied by Google and the drive line by Tesla. The assembly will be the low value component and will be carried out by the lowest bidder because these vehicles will be operated by fleet operators. Customers will care about reliability of services, cleanliness and comfort. The car as we know it will be dead.
On this site an electrical engineer goes into great depth as to why the Tesla is sound and the Fisker is Mickey Mouse:
http://twinkle_toes_engineering.home.comcast.net/~... electric car motors --- Fisker Karma vs Tesla Model S
Also Tesla Model S versus M5 drag race.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvHTN0Yi1t4
Edited by Talksteer on Wednesday 3rd April 00:24
JonnyVTEC said:
Charge a large tariff for that period that is cheaper after 8pm.... Still 10hrs left to fill most people's cars aswell.
Exactly. So because other people want to charge electric cars, you are happy to pay even more for putting your oven, kettle and TV on when you get home from work, even though you don't own an electric car? zebedee said:
JonnyVTEC said:
Charge a large tariff for that period that is cheaper after 8pm.... Still 10hrs left to fill most people's cars aswell.
Exactly. So because other people want to charge electric cars, you are happy to pay even more for putting your oven, kettle and TV on when you get home from work, even though you don't own an electric car? I fail to see a problem, it's just basic supply and demand.
dvs_dave said:
kVA said:
dvs_dave said:
Given that the Fisker is pretty much the same price as the top line Tesla, but seemingly has none of the downsides, I struggle to see why Tesla are doing so much better than Fisker, as the Fisker is the better product for today's market.
As I said above - credibility, experience and actually getting a product to market before anyone else...Ask anyone in the street if they've ever heard of Fisker... Then ask again if they've heard of Tesla - bet you'll get 10 times as many say yes to the second question
Same thing if you ask people to name a hybrid electric car - most will say Prius or Lexus, yet we all know there are loads more on the market - the early bird really does catch the worm in marketing clout... Followers have to be SO much better, to steal a lead and the Fisker isn't even as good, technically, let alone better!
However the elephant in the room is the simple fact that a Tesla can't reliably and without worry get you more than 100 miles away from base. And you start drag racing with it, it's not even going to get you to the next set of lights, let alone home in the same day. As an engineering exercise it's impressive, but in terms of practicality the Tesla "system" is deeply flawed, and will remain so for the foreseeable future.
It's not really more of a restriction than only having two seats - there are some trips you can't use that particular car for.
This has to be one of the best looking saloons recently styled,out maseratis a maserati!
dtmpower said:
This has to be one of the best looking saloons recently styled,out maseratis a maserati!
dtmpower said:
zebedee said:
JonnyVTEC said:
Charge a large tariff for that period that is cheaper after 8pm.... Still 10hrs left to fill most people's cars aswell.
Exactly. So because other people want to charge electric cars, you are happy to pay even more for putting your oven, kettle and TV on when you get home from work, even though you don't own an electric car? My big problem with plug in electric cars is where people without a drive are going to charge cars. Or are we going to go back to the days where only those who can afford to stable there transport can have it?
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