RE: Alpine needs its 911
Discussion
Matt UK said:
kambites said:
Matt UK said:
As for 1.6 engine size, I think it comes down to how it drives and power/weight ratio - just look at what Caterham can charge for their top models!
Would Renault be happy with Caterham Superlight-esque sales volumes, though? Thing is, the Caterham is not practical and is a UK curiosity. If this thing has the performance and is practical enough and can be sold around the world, then the sales jump up a fair bit.
I guess my point is that in the new world of turbo-charging and engine management, are people really fussed about engine size? I know there is a legacy that 'bigger is better' and a multi-cyl engines have their own charm, but I certainly work on a 'smaller is better' principle if the power is there.
But then thats why my weekender is a screaming 4-pot Caterham and not a hauling V8 Mustang. If one could purchase a 200bhp Caterham with an incredibily small, light 1.0lt 3-pot engine, which improved the handling and bhp/tonne even further I'd been very keen to see what that feels like. The fact that it's a 1.0 rather than a 1.8 makes not odds. I do have reservations about the feel of n/a vs turbocharged engine in a car of this sort, but seeing as I've never tried FI in a Caterham, I can't really comment too much. If the set up allows it to rev high and scream all the the way to the redline though, I'm warming to the idea!
Equally worrying from a sales perspective, is the choice of gearbox (as mentioned above). Auto only.... Maybe your typical Cayman S driver is OK with that, but I'm not so sure your typical Caterham type chap would agree. It has to be a sales limiter if there is no manual option.
Renault has a habit at the moment of driving through some crass marketing decisions, let’s hope they don’t mess up the relationship with Caterham on this one.
There's a lot of talk about it competing with the Cayman/4C and a bit about Lotus, but what about Caterham, surely that is going to be the biggest competitor? Unless they go down the sales restriction route like Toyota/Subaru.
I'd love to see one with the 370Z V6 in the back (and a manual gearbox), but I agree that the 1.6 turbo will most likely be used. Hopefully the Caterham version is aimed more at the enthusiasts...
I'd love to see one with the 370Z V6 in the back (and a manual gearbox), but I agree that the 1.6 turbo will most likely be used. Hopefully the Caterham version is aimed more at the enthusiasts...
PunterCam said:
A 1.6 automatic. Renault, sort it the f
k out. If they make a car that looks like this and then ruin it...
I also have no interest in the Alfa 4c because of its engine. And it looks a bit cheap, somehow... The only car making inroads in the small coupe area is the Toyburu, and even that doesn't have the right engine... If they gave it a high revving 2.5 version of their engine, with 260bhp and plenty of torque it would be the only option south of the Cayman S.
I'm a bit perplexed by this sentiment, which seems to be expressed about the move to smaller turbocharged engines; it is inevitable, there is no way that ever tightening emissions targets cannot be met unless you go down this route. It's no great surmise that the next Boxster will use a very similar engine so the choice between Alfa, Alpine & Porsche will all be 1.6/1.75/2 litre turbocharged. Remember too that the 110-50 is not due until 2016, about the same time as this.k out. If they make a car that looks like this and then ruin it...I also have no interest in the Alfa 4c because of its engine. And it looks a bit cheap, somehow... The only car making inroads in the small coupe area is the Toyburu, and even that doesn't have the right engine... If they gave it a high revving 2.5 version of their engine, with 260bhp and plenty of torque it would be the only option south of the Cayman S.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=127...
Technomatt said:
Matt UK said:
kambites said:
Matt UK said:
As for 1.6 engine size, I think it comes down to how it drives and power/weight ratio - just look at what Caterham can charge for their top models!
Would Renault be happy with Caterham Superlight-esque sales volumes, though? Thing is, the Caterham is not practical and is a UK curiosity. If this thing has the performance and is practical enough and can be sold around the world, then the sales jump up a fair bit.
I guess my point is that in the new world of turbo-charging and engine management, are people really fussed about engine size? I know there is a legacy that 'bigger is better' and a multi-cyl engines have their own charm, but I certainly work on a 'smaller is better' principle if the power is there.
But then thats why my weekender is a screaming 4-pot Caterham and not a hauling V8 Mustang. If one could purchase a 200bhp Caterham with an incredibily small, light 1.0lt 3-pot engine, which improved the handling and bhp/tonne even further I'd been very keen to see what that feels like. The fact that it's a 1.0 rather than a 1.8 makes not odds. I do have reservations about the feel of n/a vs turbocharged engine in a car of this sort, but seeing as I've never tried FI in a Caterham, I can't really comment too much. If the set up allows it to rev high and scream all the the way to the redline though, I'm warming to the idea!
Equally worrying from a sales perspective, is the choice of gearbox (as mentioned above). Auto only.... Maybe your typical Cayman S driver is OK with that, but I'm not so sure your typical Caterham type chap would agree. It has to be a sales limiter if there is no manual option.
Renault has a habit at the moment of driving through some crass marketing decisions, let’s hope they don’t mess up the relationship with Caterham on this one.
Yes, a small engined, nice handling car with good power to weight will make most petrolheads happy (see: S1 Elise) but won't sell in volumes.
A smaller turbo engined car with an auto box and attractive looks could sell in volume if it were cheap enough (see: Scirocco, Celica, Hyundai Coupe etc.).
So it appears to me that someone in Renault/Alpine had a good idea, then the accountants/management consultants/focus groups went to work and we ended up with a car that appears to be targeted at a market that doesn't want it, and priced out of a market where it might shift some volume.
Technomatt said:
Equally worrying from a sales perspective, is the choice of gearbox (as mentioned above). Auto only.... Maybe your typical Cayman S driver is OK with that, but I'm not so sure your typical Caterham type chap would agree. It has to be a sales limiter if there is no manual option.
Completely agree with this, at a price of £50k, anyone wanting a flappy paddle sports car would take the Cayman, people who prefer manual would take the Cayman or GT86 at half the price. As much as I want it to be good, I can't help but think that this will be a massive failure, even IF it is better than the Cayman, at the same price, people will still want the Cayman.They would be much better tackling the lower end 'Fun' car market and going against the GT86.
They missed saying "simples" after stating their business plan to compete with Porsche in the market-place on every level. Nice idea, but you can't blame them for saying what they have- there's got to be a plan for some kind of world domination of the senior bods probably wouldn't look twice at it.
Marc p said:
Completely agree with this, at a price of £50k, anyone wanting a flappy paddle sports car would take the Cayman, people who prefer manual would take the Cayman or GT86 at half the price. As much as I want it to be good, I can't help but think that this will be a massive failure, even IF it is better than the Cayman, at the same price, people will still want the Cayman.
They would be much better tackling the lower end 'Fun' car market and going against the GT86.
+1They would be much better tackling the lower end 'Fun' car market and going against the GT86.
Dont understand these small engine cars that are supposed to be lightweight and fun being priced at £50k. Nobody buys lightweight fun cars for £50k, they want something more refined that will cruise on the motorway at 90mph in silence all day long.
http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/j...
Why would you pay the same for a renault 1.6 :S
Mark Benson said:
It's all this that makes it hard to quantify.
Yes, a small engined, nice handling car with good power to weight will make most petrolheads happy (see: S1 Elise) but won't sell in volumes.
A smaller turbo engined car with an auto box and attractive looks could sell in volume if it were cheap enough (see: Scirocco, Celica, Hyundai Coupe etc.).
So it appears to me that someone in Renault/Alpine had a good idea, then the accountants/management consultants/focus groups went to work and we ended up with a car that appears to be targeted at a market that doesn't want it, and priced out of a market where it might shift some volume.
It's certainly starting to look like maybe those Caterham chaps sitting down at meetings with a decent mug of English tea with all those well earnt realities about marketing and selling bespoke cars to enthusiasts over the years may have been outgunned by Renault’s bouffant touting Skinny Latte drinking marketing types. Yes, a small engined, nice handling car with good power to weight will make most petrolheads happy (see: S1 Elise) but won't sell in volumes.
A smaller turbo engined car with an auto box and attractive looks could sell in volume if it were cheap enough (see: Scirocco, Celica, Hyundai Coupe etc.).
So it appears to me that someone in Renault/Alpine had a good idea, then the accountants/management consultants/focus groups went to work and we ended up with a car that appears to be targeted at a market that doesn't want it, and priced out of a market where it might shift some volume.
kambites said:
The Crack Fox said:
But it's NOT a Renault ! It's an Alpine, differnent marque, different car and the marque has some decent heritage it isn't some crappy marketing exercise - it's the real deal. See below;
So why does it have a huge Renault badge on the nose and "Renault" written in foot high letters across the wing of the concept? 
There is massive interest in Alpines in France, the average man in the street will know all about them- its Caterham who will have the biggest job selling the cars in my opinion as the average man in the street here will think only of a place in Surrey if asked.
Edited by eastlmark on Tuesday 4th June 13:53
Was i the only one to notice the khmer and the misuse of it ... Khmer mean nothing in French (for reference => http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khmer_language).
More or less that pol pot and cambodia
Anyway glad they decide to go further, a lot of people complaint about renault but they have always made niche market car (like the spyder (before the lotus elise), R5 turbo, Clio V6 etc).
More or less that pol pot and cambodia
Anyway glad they decide to go further, a lot of people complaint about renault but they have always made niche market car (like the spyder (before the lotus elise), R5 turbo, Clio V6 etc).
Technomatt said:
It's certainly starting to look like maybe those Caterham chaps sitting down at meetings with a decent mug of English tea with all those well earnt realities about marketing and selling bespoke cars to enthusiasts over the years may have been outgunned by Renault’s bouffant touting Skinny Latte drinking marketing types.
Except the Caterham car is supposedly completely different to the Alpine car, not just a re-badging exercise. Roll on 2016...ewenm said:
Technomatt said:
It's certainly starting to look like maybe those Caterham chaps sitting down at meetings with a decent mug of English tea with all those well earnt realities about marketing and selling bespoke cars to enthusiasts over the years may have been outgunned by Renault’s bouffant touting Skinny Latte drinking marketing types.
Except the Caterham car is supposedly completely different to the Alpine car, not just a re-badging exercise. Roll on 2016...Different on the inside - TBD.
Different £ RRP - doubt it.
TurboBlue said:
PunterCam said:
A 1.6 automatic. Renault, sort it the fk out. If they make a car that looks like this and then ruin it...
I also have no interest in the Alfa 4c because of its engine. And it looks a bit cheap, somehow... The only car making inroads in the small coupe area is the Toyburu, and even that doesn't have the right engine... If they gave it a high revving 2.5 version of their engine, with 260bhp and plenty of torque it would be the only option south of the Cayman S.
I'm a bit perplexed by this sentiment, which seems to be expressed about the move to smaller turbocharged engines; it is inevitable, there is no way that ever tightening emissions targets cannot be met unless you go down this route. It's no great surmise that the next Boxster will use a very similar engine so the choice between Alfa, Alpine & Porsche will all be 1.6/1.75/2 litre turbocharged. Remember too that the 110-50 is not due until 2016, about the same time as this.k out. If they make a car that looks like this and then ruin it...I also have no interest in the Alfa 4c because of its engine. And it looks a bit cheap, somehow... The only car making inroads in the small coupe area is the Toyburu, and even that doesn't have the right engine... If they gave it a high revving 2.5 version of their engine, with 260bhp and plenty of torque it would be the only option south of the Cayman S.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=127...
k all more). Small turbos for clios and fiestas - lovely, no probs - they're huge sellers, and making these largely city-bound cars clean is a no brainer. Hell, I'd happily buy an electric car for town use if I could make it work (and lived in a big town!). But these alfa's and alpine's are never going to sell millions - they're everyday toys for people who don't (shouldn't(!)) mind paying a few quid extra on road tax and petrol. If there are EU fines/incentives towards the manufacturers to make everything pollute less then you can understand the desire to downsize engines, but in cases like this it's clearly in no ones interest, and the powers that be should recognise that. If you just give them the same drivetrain as a clio and mito then what's the point? It's never going to be special, regardless of looks or handling. Might as well give it a turbo diesel - they're efficient and clean (apparently). I despair.
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