RE: Nissan ZEOD
Discussion
Max_Torque said:
I agree with you, when we are talking about racing from 30 years ago. At that point, the racing was cutting edge, but only because the road car side of things was so haphazard and uncontrolled.
Just to put things in a bit of context, and it refers to it almost being cliched in relation to disc brakes, but have a look at this: http://www.dailysportscar.com/?p=8392At the time, people probably thought all kinds of technology was reaching its zenith too, especially when you look at how far aerodynamics had already come in the preceding decade (take a look at the cars racing at Le Mans 15 years earlier than the C type).
Racing at Le Mans is an incredibly hard and hostile environment and allows manufacturers not really to test technology, but to PROVE it. You only have to look at comments in the first half of 2012 on the Deltawing itself - hardly anyone believed it would turn a corner, sounds crazy now, but just go and hunt out some of the threads at the time. Now not a single person has commented on the layout of this new car. Why? Because Deltawing PROVED it can work. If Nissan can PROVE that it has battery and motor technology that can take on the greatest race on earth and come out looking good, that is a far better return than spending a vast amount to knock 0.1 off the cd of a Micra, which no-one actually cares about. A lot of motorsport impact is quite subliminal and affects our perception of where we see a manufacturer, whether we acknowledge it or not.
Max_Torque said:
loudlashadjuster said:
who's got the depth of experience in all the bits of electric cars that aren't the batteries?
Strangely enough, it's Nissan! They have a volume production car today with an electric powertrain.Look, I know what you're saying about the marketing guff, but this is the way it has always been and is required so the shareholders/board allow the engineers to take a pile of money and go and play
P4ROT said:
I would say that for a long distance racer durability/reliability would be at the top, making that pursuit very relevant to road cars.
And i would agree with you, but unfortunately "race car durabilty" which is primarily the capability of maintaining proper operation under extended full load conditions is simply nothing like road car durability. For example, you could take the best race car suspension system availible that cost tens of thousands of pounds, but put it on your road car, and it would be rendered in-operative by only one winters road salt ingress! Or we could take say an electrical connector, that after an overnight soak down to -10degC fails due to brittle fracture under engine born vibration when starting the next day, because if it's -10degc, the race car was always tucked away in a nice heated garage etc!You only have to look at the Porsche GT-3 "centre lock wheel nut" debacle for an example of what i am talking about!
P4ROT said:
Also I don't think you can gloss over the importance of injecting money into the system. Then there's the fact that people like you and I are much more likely to buy an electric car (and support the process) if there is an active racing program which promotes the technology as something exciting.
Again, I agree, you can't get away from the importance of Marketing (with a capital M ;-) in all our lives, but i just wish, that one day, they would just tell the truth, which is often just as exciting, rather than try to dress everything up! P4ROT said:
You're so right about R&D budgets though; I imagine relative to racing budgets the difference is ridiculous compared to the 1980s!
Talking to a guy from Hella a few weeks back, he told me that a certain german brand spends more on the lighting system for one of its platforms than they spend on there entire F1 team in a year..........P4ROT said:
(BTW I'm trying to imagine your neighbour -a little old lady in my mind- driving a ZEOD...lol)
She is an old(ish) lady, but not that little. I think getting into it might be a slight challange, and as she already regularly knocks over her wheely bins with the micra i think reversing the ZEOD might cause some more significant damage ;-)Max_Torque said:
Talking to a guy from Hella a few weeks back, he told me that a certain german brand spends more on the lighting system for one of its platforms than they spend on there entire F1 team in a year..........
Knowing the development costs of lamps and lamp technology I can well imagine that to be the case especially when you multiply it over a range of vehicles.Lamps are phenomenally expensive to develop and produce.
zebedee said:
If Nissan can PROVE that it has battery and motor technology that can take on the greatest race on earth and come out looking good,
But the issue is not one of "looking good". To be useful to road cars (which is what nissan sells, makes money so they can then go racing) they need a system that is cost effective and works in a road car, not a racing car. What this press release doesn't say is where Nissan is getting its powertrain electrification systems and components from? Is it developing it's own battery systems for example?zebedee said:
that is a far better return than spending a vast amount to knock 0.1 off the cd of a Micra, which no-one actually cares about.
really? I can tell you, that if you had a way to reduce the CD of a micra (or any road car infact) by 0.1, without costing a lot of money or being impractical, you could, today, walk into the board room of any of the major OEM's and demand probably something like £10M for that knowledge!Max_Torque said:
Let's be honest, Nissan knows everything there is to know already about making a successful road car, whatever the propulsive medium.
in the long history of human innovation, which in the case of car design apparently ended in 2013, i wonder how many people have uttered the same b
ks?
It's all about provenance and marketing. 'Win on sunday, sell on monday' - Even if the monday seller and sunday winner are gulfs apart in terms of design and engineering.
Why have Alpine returned?
Because they are hoping for some reflected glory to shine upon their upcoming road car project, it raises their profile and precipitates numerous column (and webpage) inches.
The more manufacturers racing the better I say.
Bugatti - pull your finger out!
Why have Alpine returned?
Because they are hoping for some reflected glory to shine upon their upcoming road car project, it raises their profile and precipitates numerous column (and webpage) inches.
The more manufacturers racing the better I say.
Bugatti - pull your finger out!
There aren't many people going to know more about EVs than Nissan. If I had to quote for a contract with them I'd be cacking myself. I've worked with a lot of car manufacturers who I was worried would tear strips off me when I presented to them and walked away realising they just weren't all that clued up but Nissan would still have me worried.
If the ZEOD was running a concept next generation hot foam gel solar trilithium helium III battery module which cost as much a jumbo jet then I'd think wow, now thats cutting edge and maybe in 30 years I'd look back and say, yep, they thought of that back in 2013 for le mans and look at us now, but nope, its pretty much the same tech thats in most road EVs today and BMW will be putting range extenders into production on the i3, as have Fisker and GM(?). They're just lightweight, cleverly packaged internal combustion engines. The concepts got legs and it will take a small piece of the market but its not a game changer.
Meanwhile, I bet this whole ZEOD preogramme costs less than the latest ad campaign for the new CashCow with added google and I know which gives me a warmer feeling towards Nissan. Programmes like the JukeGTR, and crazy Micra always get us petrol heads fired up for much less cash than TV adds.
If the ZEOD was running a concept next generation hot foam gel solar trilithium helium III battery module which cost as much a jumbo jet then I'd think wow, now thats cutting edge and maybe in 30 years I'd look back and say, yep, they thought of that back in 2013 for le mans and look at us now, but nope, its pretty much the same tech thats in most road EVs today and BMW will be putting range extenders into production on the i3, as have Fisker and GM(?). They're just lightweight, cleverly packaged internal combustion engines. The concepts got legs and it will take a small piece of the market but its not a game changer.
Meanwhile, I bet this whole ZEOD preogramme costs less than the latest ad campaign for the new CashCow with added google and I know which gives me a warmer feeling towards Nissan. Programmes like the JukeGTR, and crazy Micra always get us petrol heads fired up for much less cash than TV adds.
Max_Torque said:
zebedee said:
If Nissan can PROVE that it has battery and motor technology that can take on the greatest race on earth and come out looking good,
But the issue is not one of "looking good". To be useful to road cars (which is what nissan sells, makes money so they can then go racing) they need a system that is cost effective and works in a road car, not a racing car. What this press release doesn't say is where Nissan is getting its powertrain electrification systems and components from? Is it developing it's own battery systems for example?zebedee said:
that is a far better return than spending a vast amount to knock 0.1 off the cd of a Micra, which no-one actually cares about.
really? I can tell you, that if you had a way to reduce the CD of a micra (or any road car infact) by 0.1, without costing a lot of money or being impractical, you could, today, walk into the board room of any of the major OEM's and demand probably something like £10M for that knowledge!And it does filter through. How much do you think Jaguar and the investors spent on those disc brakes? The development costs were probably prohibitive for road cars and even now they don't appear on basic cars on the rear axle. Data will be gathered and analysed to the nth degree and that will lead to developments on road cars, I do believe that.
And yes, I wasn't thinking, I meant .01! What I mean is people will know (even if they don't want to) through all the advertising etc that Nissan would do off the back of a good result) that Nissan offer electric cars and have (ostensibly at least) some very trick technology (whether it is in their road cars or not). That will lead to more £ for Nissan in sales than a Micra having a cd of 0.33 or 0.32, because people who buy a Micra, just want Micra.
The 'Toyota Hybrid' is a good example. We all know Toyta sells Hybrid cars, but how many of the road cars use a supercapacitor like the race car does? The greater car buying public won't have a clue, but the press will be covered in 'Toyota Hybrid' wins Le Mans if they do, and that will be great for sales of Toyota hybrid cars.
Max_Torque said:
Does anyone seriously believe this stuff?
Like:
Not sure I agree. Like:
Nissan said:
Developing a car like this provides an incredibly challenging test bed for what could be highly-effective options for road cars of the future.
Road car aero improvements come from detail design of a form factor that is actually extemely limited in it's scope (if you want to package 4 humans and their dog, then a cube is a good place to start). And i'm going to guess that Nissan spends several hundred times as much money in their windtunnel/CFD suite doing the aero for the next Micra than this race car ever sees.I'd love a covered, high MPG, single seater to take just me and my bag to work along the motorway. Simplistically speaking halve the width of cars on the motorway you double the capacity. Low weight, low drag high MPG.
Perfect commuting vehicle.
Agent Orange said:
Not sure I agree.
I'd love a covered, high MPG, single seater to take just me and my bag to work along the motorway. Simplistically speaking halve the width of cars on the motorway you double the capacity. Low weight, low drag high MPG.
Perfect commuting vehicle.
and even people like VW are thinking along your lines - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-228...I'd love a covered, high MPG, single seater to take just me and my bag to work along the motorway. Simplistically speaking halve the width of cars on the motorway you double the capacity. Low weight, low drag high MPG.
Perfect commuting vehicle.
zebedee said:
and even people like VW are thinking along your lines - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-228...
Yep XL1 is a step in the right direction but still too big as far as my thinking goes. Good article on it in last months Octane.Agent Orange said:
Yep XL1 is a step in the right direction but still too big as far as my thinking goes. Good article on it in last months Octane.
Agreed, but just wanted to show that maybe it isn't totally far out to think we might be driving something that carried some cues from this kind of thing over as we might currenly think.Anyway, some of us are led by seeing impressive racing results (me included) some aren't. I don't think Nissan would argue otherwise, but they obviously think it is worth a go.
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