RE: Chris Harris video: M135i vs A45 AMG
Discussion
RobM77 said:
kambites said:
Lowtimer said:
kambites said:
I've never driven an EFI engine that I've been entirely happy with the throttle response of; they all seem to have a bit of delay (including my Elise, it's one of the most annoying things about its controls).
The difference between the Elise and the MGB is nowhere near as stark as between the Octavia and the Elise, but it's still fairly noticeable if you drive the two back-to-back.
Modern factory EFI is like that, agreed, but mechanical injection systems can be delicious, and anything from the Bosch K-Jetronic era can be excellent too. In general I think the best possible layout for pure throttle response is cable throttle, properly mapped electronic ignition, mechanical injection. For example a nicely set-up '70s Porsche 911E The difference between the Elise and the MGB is nowhere near as stark as between the Octavia and the Elise, but it's still fairly noticeable if you drive the two back-to-back.
Anyway, this is a little off topic. I don't think BMW or Mercedes are going to go out and build us an MFI, cable throttled, ITB, normally aspirated hot hatch.
Edited by kambites on Tuesday 23 July 11:53
A lot of the throttle reponse issues come from minimising emissions. IIRC slowly opening the throttle reduces NOx.
GranCab said:
Progress ?
E55 AMG I bought new in 1998 @ circa £60,000 ... 5.4 24V AMG V8 354 PS (260 kW; 349 hp) 530 N·m (391 lb·ft) 0- 62 mph 5.4 secs
A45 AMG can be bought new for circa £38,000 ... 2.0 AMG in-line 4cyl 360 PS (265 kW; 355 hp) @6000, 450 N·m (332 lbf·ft) @2250-5000 0-62mph: 4.6 seconds
But the 2.0 will be laggy and sound crap vs the V8.E55 AMG I bought new in 1998 @ circa £60,000 ... 5.4 24V AMG V8 354 PS (260 kW; 349 hp) 530 N·m (391 lb·ft) 0- 62 mph 5.4 secs
A45 AMG can be bought new for circa £38,000 ... 2.0 AMG in-line 4cyl 360 PS (265 kW; 355 hp) @6000, 450 N·m (332 lbf·ft) @2250-5000 0-62mph: 4.6 seconds
I bet economy when 'using it' isn't that much better either.
Also there were big power 2.0 turbo engines in 1998. Most Evo VI's could be easily breathed on to make 350bhp and 300lbft without breaking a sweat.
The only thing those old engines didn't do is emphasise economy because no one who buys that kinda car anyway really cares about mpg... not that much any way. Only the government and their tax approach cares which is why buyers care today.
I'll admit we have progressed, but not as much as you'd think. We simply care about more irrelevant numbers these days and using those new fairly pointless metrics new cars are better.
Thankfully we can tinker with electrics more than ever and put right a lot of the tuned in wrongness in new cars to make them good again
Dave
carinaman said:
A poor analogy:'The 135i will want to understeer into a corner and oversteer at the exit, but the Audi goes round bends like a slot racer with a second pin between the rear wheels'
No one would buy that slot racer as it defeats the entire reason for the product's existence.
On a serious note. They keep referring to 10/10s pace. Up in the Dolomites? They can't have been been driving these 10/10s on public roads let alone up there?
Given how so many car's character changes quite distinctly between the 7/8 tenths a very good driver might be capable of on the roads and the 10 tenths a good racer can achieve on track this would make for quite a difference in inference in this article.
Edited by DonkeyApple on Thursday 15th August 08:24
DonkeyApple said:
A poor analogy:
'The 135i will want to understeer into a corner and oversteer at the exit, but the Audi goes round bends like a slot racer with a second pin between the rear wheels'
No one would buy that slot racer as it defeats the entire reason for the product's existence.
On a serious note. They keep referring to 10/10s pace. Up in the Dolomites? They can't have been been driving these 10/10s on public roads let alone up there?
Given how so many car's character changes quite distinctly between the 7/8 tenths a very good driver might be capable of on the roads and the 10 tenths a good racer can achieve on track this would make for quite a difference in inference in this article.
They are saying the car is neutral. I would interpret the "slot racer" comment as quite positive, since neutral cornering behavior is ideal for going fast.'The 135i will want to understeer into a corner and oversteer at the exit, but the Audi goes round bends like a slot racer with a second pin between the rear wheels'
No one would buy that slot racer as it defeats the entire reason for the product's existence.
On a serious note. They keep referring to 10/10s pace. Up in the Dolomites? They can't have been been driving these 10/10s on public roads let alone up there?
Given how so many car's character changes quite distinctly between the 7/8 tenths a very good driver might be capable of on the roads and the 10 tenths a good racer can achieve on track this would make for quite a difference in inference in this article.
Edited by DonkeyApple on Thursday 15th August 08:24
scherzkeks said:
They are saying the car is neutral. I would interpret the "slot racer" comment as quite positive, since neutral cornering behavior is ideal for going fast.
A agree but the analogy is out of place. They have used a comparison where to pin both front and rear down totally ruins the product and makes it pointless. This is not what they meant. I think he was trying to avoid using the term 'corner like on rails' and chose the wrong alternative. It's not really a relevant issue though as you know what he was trying to say and he was trying to inject an element of 'manicness'. Or was he?
Johnnytheboy said:
The more comparative reviews I'm reading the more I'm concluding that the A45 would be the far better car if you could constantly drive it like you stole it. The M135i would be better all the rest of the time. I think I'm showing my age by thinking that makes the BMW better for me.
I agree. And at our age we are at high risk of slipping a disk every time you get out if the AMG and then quickly lunge back in to grab the satnav you've left on the dash. DonkeyApple said:
Johnnytheboy said:
The more comparative reviews I'm reading the more I'm concluding that the A45 would be the far better car if you could constantly drive it like you stole it. The M135i would be better all the rest of the time. I think I'm showing my age by thinking that makes the BMW better for me.
I agree. And at our age we are at high risk of slipping a disk every time you get out if the AMG and then quickly lunge back in to grab the satnav you've left on the dash. Johnnytheboy said:
The more comparative reviews I'm reading the more I'm concluding that the A45 would be the far better car if you could constantly drive it like you stole it. The M135i would be better all the rest of the time. I think I'm showing my age by thinking that makes the BMW better for me.
Yup. Even if you could drive it thus, you'd loose your licence pronto. Snowy roads may be a tester though
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I think that the X/10ths description doesn't differentiate between road and track, it is a measure of the capability of the vehicle. Even in the top level of rallying you do not aim to drive at 10/10ths. Circuit driving you can aim for it, but even then it is risky. I would say 99% of enthusiastic drivers drive between 2 and 6/10ths. It is not embarrassing to say that you drive at 5/10ths on the public roads, that is pretty fast in a modern car, and might get some attention from the law.Kronstein said:
Slightly disappointed by the AMG's 5.2/11.5 0-60 and 100 stats in this week's Autocar.
Room for a Black Series...
20 years ago these were Ferrari 348 numbers.Room for a Black Series...
How far we've come...and we still moan!
loudlashadjuster said:
They still are today. loudlashadjuster said:
Kronstein said:
Slightly disappointed by the AMG's 5.2/11.5 0-60 and 100 stats in this week's Autocar.
Room for a Black Series...
20 years ago these were Ferrari 348 numbers.Room for a Black Series...
How far we've come...and we still moan!
I still vote for a Black series...
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