RE: Aston Martin and AMG: PH Blog
Discussion
GWER said:
SkepticSteve said:
Alas another Great British Company Looses a bit more of it's Britishness.
Roll Royce have gone the same way.
However in their case they are still seen as being British.
So I think in the markets that matter to AM it won't be a problem, simply because the AMG engines are seen as being excellent engineering in themselves.
So buyers in the USA, China, India and other emerging counties where aspirational western goods are seen as the ultimate status symbols this won't matter.
This will be a success and so another Grest British Name will survive.
The jobs of highly skilled craftsmen building the cars here in the UK will survive and for that I welcome it.
IF AMG set up a small engine assembly plant here in the UK just for AM, then that would be even better.
I doubt it though!
what cods wallopRoll Royce have gone the same way.
However in their case they are still seen as being British.
So I think in the markets that matter to AM it won't be a problem, simply because the AMG engines are seen as being excellent engineering in themselves.
So buyers in the USA, China, India and other emerging counties where aspirational western goods are seen as the ultimate status symbols this won't matter.
This will be a success and so another Grest British Name will survive.
The jobs of highly skilled craftsmen building the cars here in the UK will survive and for that I welcome it.
IF AMG set up a small engine assembly plant here in the UK just for AM, then that would be even better.
I doubt it though!
and Daimler already have their best engine plant in Northamptonshire
IF you work at AM(?) perhaps they are doomed.
Edited by SkepticSteve on Monday 29th July 00:18
SeenTheStrings said:
He was 'asked to stay' for another 5 years by the shareholders in 2010 (you should have seen the shoulders drop in the factory when he announced it). The new investors don't seem over-keen to stand by that. As soon as the centenary bunting has been packed away, so will he.
'Saved the 911'? Yes, only by carrying on with it. The 993 was 'the best built' before the cost-cutting started and is remembered with fondness like the M-B W124, the last cars before they had to stop throwing money at everything like it was in limitless supply. He pretty much bankrupted the company, which is why he had to leave.
If you really want to gauge the great man's success, take the 'iconic' car out of the equation. Look instead at the BMW Z1. Scarcely an overwhelming commercial success. Criticised at the time for the same things as Astons often are now; underpowered for its class and overpriced. Oh, and the 968 wasn't exactly a rip-roaring success, either.
Aston's success was due to Ford's controlling hand, albeit with a light touch. Once their moderating influence had gone, UB did anything and everything he wanted. Ask anyone in the know about the profitability of a single programme since Ford sold the controlling interest and you'll get how great he is. No doubt a talented engineer (even if he thought he could better the hinge as a means by which doors move) but he is not commercially gifted, is arrogant in the extreme and ignores (or insults) his marketing people, who have been proven right time and time again (and have all left the company and achieved success elsewhere).
When customers complain about a feature on their cars, he generously affords them plenty of his time to explain exactly why they are wrong. When he wants your opinion, he'll give it to you.
Yes, the company had built more cars under his tenure than anyone else's but it that really such a good thing? Bez now derides Porsche for being 'mass made' without acknowledging that he did that there in the same way that he's done it at Aston Martin. I know better than most how many cars Aston Martin makes and sells compared to its competitors. I also know how many Bez thought he would sell. He was wrong. But instead of conceding that he may have made mistakes (by not listening to a word his marketing experts tell him - Cygnet anyone?), he ploughs on with Canute-like self-belief, telling everyone who'll listen (an ever-decreasing number, by the way) that everyone else is wrong. There are specific examples that demonstrate that he doesn't know how Aston Martin operates, even though he's been at the helm for more than a dozen years.
When the dust has settled in a few years' time, Bez will be remembered for many of the same reasons as Dany Bahar...
Good response. 'Saved the 911'? Yes, only by carrying on with it. The 993 was 'the best built' before the cost-cutting started and is remembered with fondness like the M-B W124, the last cars before they had to stop throwing money at everything like it was in limitless supply. He pretty much bankrupted the company, which is why he had to leave.
If you really want to gauge the great man's success, take the 'iconic' car out of the equation. Look instead at the BMW Z1. Scarcely an overwhelming commercial success. Criticised at the time for the same things as Astons often are now; underpowered for its class and overpriced. Oh, and the 968 wasn't exactly a rip-roaring success, either.
Aston's success was due to Ford's controlling hand, albeit with a light touch. Once their moderating influence had gone, UB did anything and everything he wanted. Ask anyone in the know about the profitability of a single programme since Ford sold the controlling interest and you'll get how great he is. No doubt a talented engineer (even if he thought he could better the hinge as a means by which doors move) but he is not commercially gifted, is arrogant in the extreme and ignores (or insults) his marketing people, who have been proven right time and time again (and have all left the company and achieved success elsewhere).
When customers complain about a feature on their cars, he generously affords them plenty of his time to explain exactly why they are wrong. When he wants your opinion, he'll give it to you.
Yes, the company had built more cars under his tenure than anyone else's but it that really such a good thing? Bez now derides Porsche for being 'mass made' without acknowledging that he did that there in the same way that he's done it at Aston Martin. I know better than most how many cars Aston Martin makes and sells compared to its competitors. I also know how many Bez thought he would sell. He was wrong. But instead of conceding that he may have made mistakes (by not listening to a word his marketing experts tell him - Cygnet anyone?), he ploughs on with Canute-like self-belief, telling everyone who'll listen (an ever-decreasing number, by the way) that everyone else is wrong. There are specific examples that demonstrate that he doesn't know how Aston Martin operates, even though he's been at the helm for more than a dozen years.
When the dust has settled in a few years' time, Bez will be remembered for many of the same reasons as Dany Bahar...
MikeGalos said:
SkepticSteve said:
Alas another Great British Company Looses a bit more of it's Britishness.
Roll Royce have gone the same way.
However in their case they are still seen as being British.
You mean the BMW 866, BMW 965 and BMW 978?Roll Royce have gone the same way.
However in their case they are still seen as being British.
I'd suggest their customers are mostly global bussinessmen anyway.
Getting it's components made in Germany is probably even thought of as the modern way.
But it is all put together in Blighty and all the touchy-feely "Quality" bits are mostly made on site.
OK that could just be marketing, but having visited the factory some years ago, the "Feeling" it is British is still there.
All IMHO and of course the fact my lad works there might bias my view Roll Royce are still British and the best luxury cars in the world!
So I say Astom Martin won't be adversly affected by using AMG technology to build their next generation cars.
A few purists will be upset, but the majority of the people (overseas) who buy the cars won't.
GWER said:
how is mercedes doing in le mans ?
most merks are gadget centric plastic s
t boxes
It'd be unfair to call the SLS a gadget centric sh*t box, and they also have in the pipe line one to take on the 911 apparently. Where does that leave AML? most merks are gadget centric plastic s
t boxes Edited by GWER on Sunday 28th July 21:18
Yes AML is we are told, 'relegated already' and seemingly struggling to survive, but at least they are trying. Being 100 % subsidiary of Mercedes, AMG isn't going to allow AML to compete, so as stated here by others, they are looking rather compromised in the future, unless, they are planning on going up to the £250k + market, in which case they will be stuffed by the F12.
GWER said:
you dont need to be on the board to know this stuff, plus your point about the IQ is incorrect, it was done to bring the companies overall emissions down, very clever indeed
i stopped reading there
You need to read more i stopped reading there
- the Cygnet was NOT made to bring down overall emissions. AML were below 10,000 units pa so the rules did not apply to them. If you Google Dr Bez and Cygnet you will see him quoting that the Cygnet was not made to bring emissions down. Unfortunately he thought it was a good idea - AM owners would use it as their 'City' car.As others have said - Dr Bez has been responsible for two many wrong decisions - the Cygnet being his biggest
Neil1300R said:
You need to read more - the Cygnet was NOT made to bring down overall emissions. AML were below 10,000 units pa so the rules did not apply to them. If you Google Dr Bez and Cygnet you will see him quoting that the Cygnet was not made to bring emissions down. Unfortunately he thought it was a good idea - AM owners would use it as their 'City' car.
As others have said - Dr Bez has been responsible for two many wrong decisions - the Cygnet being his biggest
i was at the factory last week and was told by engineers not PR why the cygnet was done, i stand by my sytatement - the Cygnet was NOT made to bring down overall emissions. AML were below 10,000 units pa so the rules did not apply to them. If you Google Dr Bez and Cygnet you will see him quoting that the Cygnet was not made to bring emissions down. Unfortunately he thought it was a good idea - AM owners would use it as their 'City' car.As others have said - Dr Bez has been responsible for two many wrong decisions - the Cygnet being his biggest
GWER said:
Neil1300R said:
You need to read more - the Cygnet was NOT made to bring down overall emissions. AML were below 10,000 units pa so the rules did not apply to them. If you Google Dr Bez and Cygnet you will see him quoting that the Cygnet was not made to bring emissions down. Unfortunately he thought it was a good idea - AM owners would use it as their 'City' car.
As others have said - Dr Bez has been responsible for two many wrong decisions - the Cygnet being his biggest
i was at the factory last week and was told by engineers not PR why the cygnet was done, i stand by my sytatement - the Cygnet was NOT made to bring down overall emissions. AML were below 10,000 units pa so the rules did not apply to them. If you Google Dr Bez and Cygnet you will see him quoting that the Cygnet was not made to bring emissions down. Unfortunately he thought it was a good idea - AM owners would use it as their 'City' car.As others have said - Dr Bez has been responsible for two many wrong decisions - the Cygnet being his biggest
Neil1300R said:
Dr B is hardly going to come out and say it is he?GWER said:
Neil1300R said:
Dr B is hardly going to come out and say it is he?ks as they can't be seen to criticise Dr Bez. Have been there and heard some of the stuff they spout to owners - not all of it true.Neil1300R said:
Well it doesn't reduce emissions as no one buys them, so either way its a crap idea. People at the factory have to talk bks as they can't be seen to criticise Dr Bez. Have been there and heard some of the stuff they spout to owners - not all of it true.
but what i was told does contradict dr bezks as they can't be seen to criticise Dr Bez. Have been there and heard some of the stuff they spout to owners - not all of it true.Seen the strings comments do not surprise me at all. But in some ways I am surprised that Bez wss not very welcome at Aston with his attitude. As an ex customer / owner the attitude that I always received by Aston Works Service (AMWS) was incredibly awful.
Aston totally believe that they are always right and the fact that your car is back with them for the umpteenth time in 3 months for warranty work well it must be the customers fault. Every time my car was back with them for warranty work it usually came away with another fault to add to the list and usually the original problem was either not fixed at all or would reoccur. I think if I kept taking the car back AMWS eventually it would only have been fit for scrap. After 5 months with the car spending nearly 3 months of that time at AMWS he only way I could get all the work completed successfully was to give up on them and gave the car to Grange the Aston dealer in Exeter who managed to fix absolutely everything within 3 days.
When I was purchasing my Aston my father warned me because in 1973 he had purchased a brand new Aston V8 injection and as we lived only 40 miles away he used to take the car to Aston to service it. Within 18 months he hated the car due to impolite and cavalier attitude of the factory service department. The car broke down a lot but he did not care about that as prestige cars of 1970's all did it was this attitude from Aston that he could not get along with. His car had 4 clutches in less than 15,000 miles they told him he was driving it wrong and that it was all his fault even though many other things kept breaking on the car. Naturally he started to wonder if they were right until one day whilst waiting in reception to collect the car he got talking with another owner who was collecting his Aston which had just had its sixth clutch within 18,000 miles. Eventually Aston found that my fathers car was suffering from a hairline crack in the flywheel.
These Aston experiences are the complete opposite to those I have experienced with the Porsche factory in Stuttgart. For a while we had a factory Porsche racing car and when ever we needed parts or advice their Motorsport division would always be happy to take a phone call to chat and give advice whilst speaking perfect English. Also the main factory have been happy to let me chat to their classic division for advice about their older cars. These experiences always left you feeling that you are a valued customer which is the complete opposite to my AMWS experiences. Yet I still love Aston cars it is an emotionally thing which I worry could disappear if they are not careful with their future decisions.
My point is that as I have already said the Bez attitude is not a surprise. If Aston are to be successful their high and mighty attitude that they are always right needs to change. Not only is it unpleasant from a customers point of view but I think it clouds their overall decision making as well their self belief of always being correct stands in their way to move forward down the right road.
Aston totally believe that they are always right and the fact that your car is back with them for the umpteenth time in 3 months for warranty work well it must be the customers fault. Every time my car was back with them for warranty work it usually came away with another fault to add to the list and usually the original problem was either not fixed at all or would reoccur. I think if I kept taking the car back AMWS eventually it would only have been fit for scrap. After 5 months with the car spending nearly 3 months of that time at AMWS he only way I could get all the work completed successfully was to give up on them and gave the car to Grange the Aston dealer in Exeter who managed to fix absolutely everything within 3 days.
When I was purchasing my Aston my father warned me because in 1973 he had purchased a brand new Aston V8 injection and as we lived only 40 miles away he used to take the car to Aston to service it. Within 18 months he hated the car due to impolite and cavalier attitude of the factory service department. The car broke down a lot but he did not care about that as prestige cars of 1970's all did it was this attitude from Aston that he could not get along with. His car had 4 clutches in less than 15,000 miles they told him he was driving it wrong and that it was all his fault even though many other things kept breaking on the car. Naturally he started to wonder if they were right until one day whilst waiting in reception to collect the car he got talking with another owner who was collecting his Aston which had just had its sixth clutch within 18,000 miles. Eventually Aston found that my fathers car was suffering from a hairline crack in the flywheel.
These Aston experiences are the complete opposite to those I have experienced with the Porsche factory in Stuttgart. For a while we had a factory Porsche racing car and when ever we needed parts or advice their Motorsport division would always be happy to take a phone call to chat and give advice whilst speaking perfect English. Also the main factory have been happy to let me chat to their classic division for advice about their older cars. These experiences always left you feeling that you are a valued customer which is the complete opposite to my AMWS experiences. Yet I still love Aston cars it is an emotionally thing which I worry could disappear if they are not careful with their future decisions.
My point is that as I have already said the Bez attitude is not a surprise. If Aston are to be successful their high and mighty attitude that they are always right needs to change. Not only is it unpleasant from a customers point of view but I think it clouds their overall decision making as well their self belief of always being correct stands in their way to move forward down the right road.
Neil1300R said:
GWER said:
Neil1300R said:
Dr B is hardly going to come out and say it is he?ks as they can't be seen to criticise Dr Bez. Have been there and heard some of the stuff they spout to owners - not all of it true.JMC1 said:
Seen the strings comments do not surprise me at all. But in some ways I am surprised that Bez wss not very welcome at Aston with his attitude. As an ex customer / owner the attitude that I always received by Aston Works Service (AMWS) was incredibly awful.
Aston totally believe that they are always right and the fact that your car is back with them for the umpteenth time in 3 months for warranty work well it must be the customers fault. Every time my car was back with them for warranty work it usually came away with another fault to add to the list and usually the original problem was either not fixed at all or would reoccur. I think if I kept taking the car back AMWS eventually it would only have been fit for scrap. After 5 months with the car spending nearly 3 months of that time at AMWS he only way I could get all the work completed successfully was to give up on them and gave the car to Grange the Aston dealer in Exeter who managed to fix absolutely everything within 3 days.
When I was purchasing my Aston my father warned me because in 1973 he had purchased a brand new Aston V8 injection and as we lived only 40 miles away he used to take the car to Aston to service it. Within 18 months he hated the car due to impolite and cavalier attitude of the factory service department. The car broke down a lot but he did not care about that as prestige cars of 1970's all did it was this attitude from Aston that he could not get along with. His car had 4 clutches in less than 15,000 miles they told him he was driving it wrong and that it was all his fault even though many other things kept breaking on the car. Naturally he started to wonder if they were right until one day whilst waiting in reception to collect the car he got talking with another owner who was collecting his Aston which had just had its sixth clutch within 18,000 miles. Eventually Aston found that my fathers car was suffering from a hairline crack in the flywheel.
These Aston experiences are the complete opposite to those I have experienced with the Porsche factory in Stuttgart. For a while we had a factory Porsche racing car and when ever we needed parts or advice their Motorsport division would always be happy to take a phone call to chat and give advice whilst speaking perfect English. Also the main factory have been happy to let me chat to their classic division for advice about their older cars. These experiences always left you feeling that you are a valued customer which is the complete opposite to my AMWS experiences. Yet I still love Aston cars it is an emotionally thing which I worry could disappear if they are not careful with their future decisions.
My point is that as I have already said the Bez attitude is not a surprise. If Aston are to be successful their high and mighty attitude that they are always right needs to change. Not only is it unpleasant from a customers point of view but I think it clouds their overall decision making as well their self belief of always being correct stands in their way to move forward down the right road.
I agree, a little humility, keen intelligence and hard work alongside a long-term vision would not have gone a miss at AML.Aston totally believe that they are always right and the fact that your car is back with them for the umpteenth time in 3 months for warranty work well it must be the customers fault. Every time my car was back with them for warranty work it usually came away with another fault to add to the list and usually the original problem was either not fixed at all or would reoccur. I think if I kept taking the car back AMWS eventually it would only have been fit for scrap. After 5 months with the car spending nearly 3 months of that time at AMWS he only way I could get all the work completed successfully was to give up on them and gave the car to Grange the Aston dealer in Exeter who managed to fix absolutely everything within 3 days.
When I was purchasing my Aston my father warned me because in 1973 he had purchased a brand new Aston V8 injection and as we lived only 40 miles away he used to take the car to Aston to service it. Within 18 months he hated the car due to impolite and cavalier attitude of the factory service department. The car broke down a lot but he did not care about that as prestige cars of 1970's all did it was this attitude from Aston that he could not get along with. His car had 4 clutches in less than 15,000 miles they told him he was driving it wrong and that it was all his fault even though many other things kept breaking on the car. Naturally he started to wonder if they were right until one day whilst waiting in reception to collect the car he got talking with another owner who was collecting his Aston which had just had its sixth clutch within 18,000 miles. Eventually Aston found that my fathers car was suffering from a hairline crack in the flywheel.
These Aston experiences are the complete opposite to those I have experienced with the Porsche factory in Stuttgart. For a while we had a factory Porsche racing car and when ever we needed parts or advice their Motorsport division would always be happy to take a phone call to chat and give advice whilst speaking perfect English. Also the main factory have been happy to let me chat to their classic division for advice about their older cars. These experiences always left you feeling that you are a valued customer which is the complete opposite to my AMWS experiences. Yet I still love Aston cars it is an emotionally thing which I worry could disappear if they are not careful with their future decisions.
My point is that as I have already said the Bez attitude is not a surprise. If Aston are to be successful their high and mighty attitude that they are always right needs to change. Not only is it unpleasant from a customers point of view but I think it clouds their overall decision making as well their self belief of always being correct stands in their way to move forward down the right road.
Instead of spending significant money 'looking good' as a company, what with fancy architecture and helicopter PR exercises (not to mention fat salaries), and deriding their customers (and potential customers) every time they are criticized, they could have eminently focused on improving what was wanting in the product range and marketing these improvements.
At least McLaren are good with the latter.
JMC1 said:
chelme: It seems that you understand what I mean about AML high handed attitude to customers. Have you experienced similar to me.
Not personally, but just gleaning information from others who have. It won't be long before I am in the market for one though, and I'd seriously consider the current 4.7 V8 (and if I get to buy one at the right price, I'd see to it that a Bamford Rose exhaust system is fitted) chelme said:
Which 3 are wrong?
AMG stands for Aufecht, Melcher and Großaspach (Aufects birth Town) - it isn't where the company was founded.Other than that, I'm struggling. The claim that they produce under 5000 a year? 2011 figures for AM were around 4200, so it could be higher I suppose?
Mustang engine not being futureproof?
Who knows.
chelme said:
Neil1300R said:
GWER said:
Neil1300R said:
Dr B is hardly going to come out and say it is he?ks as they can't be seen to criticise Dr Bez. Have been there and heard some of the stuff they spout to owners - not all of it true.As for the reason for Cygnet, people at AM keep repeating the company line because frankly nobody knows why the hell it was done, other than as an brand-extension ego-trip for yer man. It was all I-can-invent-a-niche-and-dominate-it rather than an objective business proposition.
It's certainly nothing to do with emissions; unless you sell more than 15000 cars a year on the EU, the average CO2 emission rules don't apply. It's a similar story with CAFE in the US. Even setting that aside, Cygnets would have to out-sell Aston Martin's sports cars several-to-one in order to bring down the average.
Average emissions/fuel economy is simply the most superficially plausible justification for the car. As a city car, it's ironic that it isn't even congestion charge exempt because it's emissions are too high.
The truth of it is that it's a product that very few people within the company believed in because is simply didn't fit with what the marque (not brand, marque!) is all about. Having trotted out 'Power, Beauty, Soul', Bez had to change the slogan to 'Pure Aston Martin' because PBS just looks laughable when applied to Cygnet. It is, quite simply, the answer to a question no-one asked, and a incomprehensible answer at that.
If you worked at Aston Martin and had a choice between toeing the line and clearing your desk, what would you do? You might feel a bit grubby and awkward but at least you'll be able to pay your mortgage...
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