RE: Aston Martin and AMG: PH Blog

[JMC1]

Thank you but this still does not answer why the manufacturers turn to the little guys when they need anything a bit special and why Aston can not do the same without it costing the £100's of millions that everyone keeps using as an excuse for Aston to fit Merc AMG engines. I still see it as the easy option short term that is going to make a difference to their pedigree long term. As some one else put it they are then just glorified coach-builders.

[AC43]

rj1986 said:

So C63 engine in a v8 vantage body.
Sounds like a winner

Shortest post hits the spot.

[JMC1]

Also the Bentley 6750cc engine vs the BMW engine was not just about the different styles torque curves of the engines. Arnage purchasers did not want the engine out of a car that cost less than half of their new Bentley.

[richardaucock]

Mutema said:

Let's look at the management team of Aston Martin.

Dr. Ulrich Bez, CEO
Marek Reichman, Director of Design
Hanno Kirner, CFO
Michael Van Der Sande, CCO

Now that's what I call an English company.

Marek Reichman, born in Sheffield, 1966. Very clever, considered, intelligent and thoughtful man - and as British as they come.

[BADArrows]

Great article Dan and a good way of looking at it.

I'm bored of people banging on about keeping 'British' marques 'traditional'. Sticking to 'tradition' has been the death (or export) of the British automotive industry.

As a former AMV8 owner (who sold it because it was too slow) and current C63 AMG owner (who thinks the engine would be perfect in a V8) I think it's a marriage made in automotive heaven.

Bring it on. Shall I head to Affalterbach to collect me new AM V-Acht?

[smilo996]

richardaucock said:

Mutema said:

Let's look at the management team of Aston Martin.

Dr. Ulrich Bez, CEO
Marek Reichman, Director of Design
Hanno Kirner, CFO
Michael Van Der Sande, CCO

Now that's what I call an English company.

Marek Reichman, born in Sheffield, 1966. Very clever, considered, intelligent and thoughtful man - and as British as they come. Michael Van Der Danse, I think is Dutch.

Although Dan thinks nationality is not an issue, I think that actually it is very important, because it defines approaches to business. It has nothing to do with a dislike of Germans or history but because of the manner in which they approach things. The 911 is successful because of the dogged and determined development to take a fundamentally flawed design and make it work. No other approach would have worked.
Germany dominates a significant portion of the car industry in Europe. Unlike UK car makers that are open to purchase and investment from abroad, German car makers are not. They use almost exculsivelty German suppliers and make outright purchases of other companies. Add those ingredients together and there is a potential problem of dominence through over determination.
Will AMG make bespoke engines that mimic Aston's history? Nope that is not in their nature and Aston likely know less about engine tech than AMG do so we will unlikely see Aston enhanced AMG engines either. The engines will be AMG, the electronics Bosch and the transmissions ZF. What exactly will Aston be doing, designing bodywork and stiching leather?
The car industry is an international one, however some countries are more international about it than others.

[Thermonuclear]

Personally feel that AMG and Aston are going to be a great combo.

AMG make some of the best engines out there.

[NGK210]

smilo996 said:

richardaucock said:

Mutema said:

Let's look at the management team of Aston Martin.

Dr. Ulrich Bez, CEO
Marek Reichman, Director of Design
Hanno Kirner, CFO
Michael Van Der Sande, CCO

Now that's what I call an English company.

Marek Reichman, born in Sheffield, 1966. Very clever, considered, intelligent and thoughtful man - and as British as they come. Michael Van Der Danse, I think is Dutch.

Although Dan thinks nationality is not an issue, I think that actually it is very important, because it defines approaches to business. It has nothing to do with a dislike of Germans or history but because of the manner in which they approach things. The 911 is successful because of the dogged and determined development to take a fundamentally flawed design and make it work. No other approach would have worked.
Germany dominates a significant portion of the car industry in Europe. Unlike UK car makers that are open to purchase and investment from abroad, German car makers are not. They use almost exculsivelty German suppliers and make outright purchases of other companies. Add those ingredients together and there is a potential problem of dominence through over determination.
Will AMG make bespoke engines that mimic Aston's history? Nope that is not in their nature and Aston likely know less about engine tech than AMG do so we will unlikely see Aston enhanced AMG engines either. The engines will be AMG, the electronics Bosch and the transmissions ZF. What exactly will Aston be doing, designing bodywork and stiching leather?
The car industry is an international one, however some countries are more international about it than others.

If there're better suppliers for car electrics - Magneti Marelli, Lucas?? - and gearboxes, please advise.

Mercedes has a tradition of employing the best man/component for the job, which is why, for example, it dropped its German ex-F1 champ for a Brit and its F1 team and engine division are UK-based, etc...

[paralla]

I've always had it in my head that the AM V12 was a lash up of a couple of Mondeo V6's. Surely an AMG donor engine has better provenance than that.

[kaliber]

Think this might be a bit simpler a view than other but surley it should go;

Power = Good

Sound = Good

Helping a British marques longer term survival = Good

the fact its 'ze germans' who gives a flip!

[NGK210]

paralla said:

I've always had it in my head that the AM V12 was a lash up of a couple of Mondeo V6's. Surely an AMG donor engine has better provenance than that.

The prototype V12 used two Ford 3.0-litre engine blocks joined together. Also worth noting that the prototype V12 was originally devised for Ford-owned Lincoln, which decided not to proceed and the V12 project was passed on to Aston.

The Aston-spec V12's bespoke oily bits were the work of then-Ford-owned Cosworth and, AFAIK, the production engines' blocks have always been a one-piece casting.

In other words, Aston's V12 is far from being a "lash up of a couple of Mondeo V6s".

Similarly, the BMW 1.5-litre turbo that propelled Nelson Piquet's F1 championship-winning Brabham shared its block with the road-going 316

[sisu]

BADArrows said:

Great article Dan and a good way of looking at it.

I'm bored of people banging on about keeping 'British' marques 'traditional'. Sticking to 'tradition' has been the death (or export) of the British automotive industry.

As a former AMV8 owner (who sold it because it was too slow) and current C63 AMG owner (who thinks the engine would be perfect in a V8) I think it's a marriage made in automotive heaven.

Bring it on. Shall I head to Affalterbach to collect me new AM V-Acht?

I totally agree with you.

The way some people are harping on about something being 'British' and locally sourced you would think Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall was building cars.
The AMG engines are fantastic, in todays market you can't just look in yell.co.uk to find solutions to real world solutions.

[aeropilot]

JMC1 said:

Lotus engineering would have been surely a better a tie up. I know they use Toyota power in some of their cars but a cost effective deal was done by GM between Lotus and Mercury Marine to produce the engine that went into the Vauxhall Carlton.

I think you're getting confused with the Lotus designed 32v DOHC engine used in the Corvette ZR-1, the manufacture of which was contracted out to Mercury Marine.
I'm pretty sure the Lotus-Carlton engines were made in house by Opel in Germany apart from the Mahle supplied special pistons.

JMC1 said:

Also I believe Williams GP produced the power plant for the 6R4.

Williams GP designed the chassis and transmission, but the V6R4 engine was designed in house by ARG engine man Cliff Humphreys at Cowley.

[anonymous-user]

richardaucock said:

Marek Reichman, born in Sheffield, 1966. Very clever, considered, intelligent and thoughtful man - and as British as they come.

Indeed, mine was a lazy copy and paste. I just get so bored with the 'ze Germans' rhetoric. It's not about national pride, it's about shareholder value and survival. The Germans make some of the finest cars and engines in the world.

[JMC1]

Well spotted aeropilot. Memory playing tricks on me you are right Lotus sorted the the ZR1 engine for GM and then sorted the chassis dynamics for GM on the Lotus Carlton. But my point is still the same that there are other engineering options available for sensible money on engine development.

Also you are probably right about the 6R4 when I was a kid we had a factory tour of the Williams factory and the original 6R4 was being developed there at the time which they would not answer any questions on.

I am surprised no one has picked up on my Al Melling suggestion as he is one clever guy who has consulted to F1, motor and motorbike manufacturers all around the world but is always signed to confidentially agreements that preclude him from discussing them too much.

[TA14]

Max_Torque said:

And, no, an Aston has never been about raw numbers in any one area,

Wow! I can tell that you weren't around in the 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s, or 80s then. Hillclimbs, 30 years at Le Mans, chasing 0-60 times. Is this now the way that the youth view Aston Martin?

[chelme]

Mutema said:

Indeed, mine was a lazy copy and paste. I just get so bored with the 'ze Germans' rhetoric. It's not about national pride, it's about shareholder value and survival. The Germans make some of the finest cars and engines in the world.

There was no 'ze Germanz' rhetoric to begin with

[Jawaman]

Forgive me if anyone has already mentioned it, but with the JLR petrol engines also getting on a bit, is there much scope for Aston and jag to jointly develop a new power plant?

Would there be too much overlap with the jag sports cars if they shared powerplants?

[Dr Interceptor]

Jawaman said:

Forgive me if anyone has already mentioned it, but with the JLR petrol engines also getting on a bit, is there much scope for Aston and jag to jointly develop a new power plant?

Would there be too much overlap with the jag sports cars if they shared powerplants?

They have very different requirements though, sure the JLR 5.0 V8 S/C unit would work well in a baby Aston like the Vantage, but the big Astons need a big V12 halo unit - which Jaguar don't need.

So, yes they could co-develop a 5.0 ish V8 with 500-600 HP, but Aston would still need a new big V12.

I'd much rather have a NEW Aston Martin with an AMg V8 in it, than a re-hashed current model with a new Aston engine.

[anonymous-user]

Jawaman said:

Forgive me if anyone has already mentioned it, but with the JLR petrol engines also getting on a bit, is there much scope for Aston and jag to jointly develop a new power plant?

Would there be too much overlap with the jag sports cars if they shared powerplants?

JLR are already a long way down the road to a whole new series of powerplants! ;-)