RE: Chris Harris video: RS6 vs CLS63
Discussion
I think this end of the market is misunderstood by many, and then the comparison between the CLS63 and RS6 even more so. I think Monkey got it right for all his sideways bias...the reality on B Road day-to-day driving is somewhat different.
I'll try and give a perspective that answers some of the bad reactions and other statements on this thread. All personal opinion and experience, and it will sound harsh to company car drivers and those who save their hard earned for the standard models - it's not meant to, but its just reality, so I apologise in advance as I don't mean to offend, but humbly offer that...
The sorts of people that buy these cars new don't really care about mpg and whether the new car is 10% more efficient or they're getting 19mpg instead of 14mpg...it doesn't even register. They also, and thanks for correcting Dr G, aren't overly concerned about it losing half it's value after 4yrs.
People that buy these brand new eg Nick Mason types, wealthy petrolheads etc often and most usually have something far more sporty for the sorts of driving critics say the RS6 isn't capable of eg Ferraris, GT3s, Astons, Lambos. Of course it isn't great on a race track - ceramics or not - it's a 2ton beast with the engine up front and will eventually understear like an Audi pig...can't defy the laws of physics, but these big estate cars hide it well under normal M/A/B Road family driving, only coming undone dynamically when pushed on in a way most don't or shouldn't drive on our roads.
As a single man and pre-kids I used to love hooning my M5 and other similar metal with their rear AMG like bias. Great fun, but a real handful and a challenge when it was icy, wet or greasy, especially entering or exiting roundabouts briskly on A Roads. Wet, damp or greasy roads is what the UK is like 60-70% of the year, especially if you don't live in London, and during the Summer months we seem to forget this. Wives tend not to enjoy this sort of driving once you have kids,
but if you can afford it you still want something fun/explosive that can blitz most things if you want to and "surprise" most sports cars at the traffic lights 0-30mph, rather than 0-60mph as someone else suggested...of course 
. The other point is that you may be a driving god in your AMG or M5, but your wife is less likely to give it a dab of oppo...there will be exceptions as the ladies' thread proved the other night, but generally this is the case and frankly the AMG and its ilk are are handful for less experienced drivers who also don't realise how much speed they've rolled-on...as my wife often does as its easy to do, or gives it the beans when the steering wheel isn't straight! 
Most fathers want their family as safe as possible, so the RS6, if they don't have a Range Rover for the wife as well - plenty do - is a very safe and predictable place for your loved ones during 70% of the year. Harris's point about the AMG not seeing which direction the RS6 went in the wet is 90% why it's the car of choice for family duties...and because they have other exotica in the garage for the sideways stuff, are happy with the compromise of the RS6 compared with the AMG for the extra smiles. Living with these cars day to day is what it's about for those that buy an RS6 - it is so sure-footed and can cover ground in a dramatic and reasonably safe way compared with the AMG. For the family that has one family car the RS6 is often the choice, but for the family that has the Range Rover/Disco/Cayenne/4x4 etc for the wife, the AMG is often the choice for the guy if it's his daily driver. I have friends where both these scenarios play out exactly this way.
Just watching the way the two cars come around that bend in the video says it all for our roads...RS6 totally flat and composed and the AMG hanging its arse out...yes, great fun, but not possible on a B road as driver runs out of road/space and even talent eventually.
Re the new RS6, yes I also noticed the seat side-bolsters were already very worn, it should also have had the (UR homage) boxed arches and I think this is a mistake styling wise; and the rear boot is more raked and therefore smaller and less practical than the C6; but it won't matter to those who buy these cars one iota. The benefit of course is for those who can pick up a car like this 4years later for £30k and this then becomes an epic piece of kit for that price. And because there is a small market of people that buy these halo cars, they get built and sold for what I would agree are silly prices for the average motorist, but they then become affordable for this group of people years down the line - this has to be good news and we should be glad people can pay silly money so that these cars get made in the first place...it makes the petrolhead world go round IMO.
Everyone has a budget and cuts their cloth accordingly - everyone makes compromises, even the wealthy I guess, so everyone's threshold is different and it's therefore impossible to argue the merits of spending £90k on an estate car instead of £20k on an estate car. Of course they can do the same "job"' but it's how they do it and way they do it that's different. It's like saying I don't see the point of buying an Enzo when a 458 does 95% of what the Enzo can do for £200k ...yup, good point. Or why buy a Carrara GT when a 997 GT2 does the same, but for a third of the price...yup another good point. Why? Because they can and the cars are different and special. This same philosophy follows in the high-end supercar performance uber barges, and all the arguments as to why it's silly don't register.
The V10 RS6 has been a joy to own. No DRC issues, drivetrain is bullet proof and servicing has been boggo cheap IMO for what it is. Wheel bearings have been a problem and that's about it. If the build quality and reliability is as good or improved on the C7 it will be even greater, and dynamically Monkey says it's fantastic for what it is...the best yet. What's not to like and already trading £10k off list?
I am lucky to be spending the rest of the Summer with all the family and gear we need, in my "old" RS6, for a few weeks blasting across the continent and back...it really is an epic place to be at those sorts of speeds and distances; but I will acknowledge that the fuel bills will be painful for this sort of driving...alas you can't have everything.
If you got this far, thanks for reading...and I hope I put into perspective what these uber estates are all about...all of course IMHO.
PF
I'll try and give a perspective that answers some of the bad reactions and other statements on this thread. All personal opinion and experience, and it will sound harsh to company car drivers and those who save their hard earned for the standard models - it's not meant to, but its just reality, so I apologise in advance as I don't mean to offend, but humbly offer that...
The sorts of people that buy these cars new don't really care about mpg and whether the new car is 10% more efficient or they're getting 19mpg instead of 14mpg...it doesn't even register. They also, and thanks for correcting Dr G, aren't overly concerned about it losing half it's value after 4yrs.
People that buy these brand new eg Nick Mason types, wealthy petrolheads etc often and most usually have something far more sporty for the sorts of driving critics say the RS6 isn't capable of eg Ferraris, GT3s, Astons, Lambos. Of course it isn't great on a race track - ceramics or not - it's a 2ton beast with the engine up front and will eventually understear like an Audi pig...can't defy the laws of physics, but these big estate cars hide it well under normal M/A/B Road family driving, only coming undone dynamically when pushed on in a way most don't or shouldn't drive on our roads.
As a single man and pre-kids I used to love hooning my M5 and other similar metal with their rear AMG like bias. Great fun, but a real handful and a challenge when it was icy, wet or greasy, especially entering or exiting roundabouts briskly on A Roads. Wet, damp or greasy roads is what the UK is like 60-70% of the year, especially if you don't live in London, and during the Summer months we seem to forget this. Wives tend not to enjoy this sort of driving once you have kids,
but if you can afford it you still want something fun/explosive that can blitz most things if you want to and "surprise" most sports cars at the traffic lights 0-30mph, rather than 0-60mph as someone else suggested...of course . The other point is that you may be a driving god in your AMG or M5, but your wife is less likely to give it a dab of oppo...there will be exceptions as the ladies' thread proved the other night, but generally this is the case and frankly the AMG and its ilk are are handful for less experienced drivers who also don't realise how much speed they've rolled-on...as my wife often does as its easy to do, or gives it the beans when the steering wheel isn't straight! Most fathers want their family as safe as possible, so the RS6, if they don't have a Range Rover for the wife as well - plenty do - is a very safe and predictable place for your loved ones during 70% of the year. Harris's point about the AMG not seeing which direction the RS6 went in the wet is 90% why it's the car of choice for family duties...and because they have other exotica in the garage for the sideways stuff, are happy with the compromise of the RS6 compared with the AMG for the extra smiles. Living with these cars day to day is what it's about for those that buy an RS6 - it is so sure-footed and can cover ground in a dramatic and reasonably safe way compared with the AMG. For the family that has one family car the RS6 is often the choice, but for the family that has the Range Rover/Disco/Cayenne/4x4 etc for the wife, the AMG is often the choice for the guy if it's his daily driver. I have friends where both these scenarios play out exactly this way.
Just watching the way the two cars come around that bend in the video says it all for our roads...RS6 totally flat and composed and the AMG hanging its arse out...yes, great fun, but not possible on a B road as driver runs out of road/space and even talent eventually.
Re the new RS6, yes I also noticed the seat side-bolsters were already very worn, it should also have had the (UR homage) boxed arches and I think this is a mistake styling wise; and the rear boot is more raked and therefore smaller and less practical than the C6; but it won't matter to those who buy these cars one iota. The benefit of course is for those who can pick up a car like this 4years later for £30k and this then becomes an epic piece of kit for that price. And because there is a small market of people that buy these halo cars, they get built and sold for what I would agree are silly prices for the average motorist, but they then become affordable for this group of people years down the line - this has to be good news and we should be glad people can pay silly money so that these cars get made in the first place...it makes the petrolhead world go round IMO.
Everyone has a budget and cuts their cloth accordingly - everyone makes compromises, even the wealthy I guess, so everyone's threshold is different and it's therefore impossible to argue the merits of spending £90k on an estate car instead of £20k on an estate car. Of course they can do the same "job"' but it's how they do it and way they do it that's different. It's like saying I don't see the point of buying an Enzo when a 458 does 95% of what the Enzo can do for £200k ...yup, good point. Or why buy a Carrara GT when a 997 GT2 does the same, but for a third of the price...yup another good point. Why? Because they can and the cars are different and special. This same philosophy follows in the high-end supercar performance uber barges, and all the arguments as to why it's silly don't register.
The V10 RS6 has been a joy to own. No DRC issues, drivetrain is bullet proof and servicing has been boggo cheap IMO for what it is. Wheel bearings have been a problem and that's about it. If the build quality and reliability is as good or improved on the C7 it will be even greater, and dynamically Monkey says it's fantastic for what it is...the best yet. What's not to like and already trading £10k off list?
I am lucky to be spending the rest of the Summer with all the family and gear we need, in my "old" RS6, for a few weeks blasting across the continent and back...it really is an epic place to be at those sorts of speeds and distances; but I will acknowledge that the fuel bills will be painful for this sort of driving...alas you can't have everything.
If you got this far, thanks for reading...and I hope I put into perspective what these uber estates are all about...all of course IMHO.
PF
Two things struck me about this report. One was how much these cars cost. The second was CH`s comment that he keeps the Mercedes he is driving all year in comfort mode all the time. The other bells and whistles hardly get a look in. Are road cars in this price category kitted out with too much technology that does not get used?
oldtimer2 said:
Two things struck me about this report. One was how much these cars cost. The second was CH`s comment that he keeps the Mercedes he is driving all year in comfort mode all the time. The other bells and whistles hardly get a look in. Are road cars in this price category kitted out with too much technology that does not get used?
It's more to do, I think, with the other suspension settings only working on velvet smooth tarmac/tracks and that comfort is the mode of choice for daily driving...surf the torque. I only go into dynamic mode when I'm 4up or have a big load in boot which settles the pitch and yaw of the boat that it becomes. Only goes into sport mode when I want to nail it away from lights, junction or make sure box will respond as quickly as I intend. Don't need scolded cat mode rest of the time as there is soooo much power in normal mode.Toys...keyless, rear camera (London parking), DAB, Freeview digital, sun blinds (kids) all now essential IMO now I've had it 4yrs.
So I would agree you don't need all the tech to enjoy or use these cars on a daily basis.
PF
Edited by PorkaFly on Thursday 8th August 18:54
another great vid Mr Harris - great quality too, has the camera budget gone up ?
Really tough decision for me although bar a lottery win I'll never get to consider either.
I love the front of the merc but like the overall look of the Audi - I think the 4WD would win it for me - it rains a lot in this country !
Really tough decision for me although bar a lottery win I'll never get to consider either.
I love the front of the merc but like the overall look of the Audi - I think the 4WD would win it for me - it rains a lot in this country !
Porkafly.....this man takes sense!!
Great responses really sums owning a fast Audi up.
My c6 has has it problems but I love it...for me and my family and lifestyle and love of fast cars, it meets my criteria 100%.
The C7 looks a real game changer for fast wagons?...can't wait till it falls into my price range in a couple of years, it's defo on my shopping list.
Chris
Great responses really sums owning a fast Audi up.
My c6 has has it problems but I love it...for me and my family and lifestyle and love of fast cars, it meets my criteria 100%.
The C7 looks a real game changer for fast wagons?...can't wait till it falls into my price range in a couple of years, it's defo on my shopping list.
Chris
ChrisRS6 said:
Robbo66 said:
Neither. Had 2 RS6's , never again. Dullest point and squirt barges in earth with stratospheric depreciation.
So you have told us numerous times, every time there's a thread about one in fact.oldtimer2 said:
Two things struck me about this report. One was how much these cars cost. The second was CH`s comment that he keeps the Mercedes he is driving all year in comfort mode all the time. The other bells and whistles hardly get a look in. Are road cars in this price category kitted out with too much technology that does not get used?
That is more an aspect of Techie engineers vs Designers. All of the best things are simple - Rolex Oyster, Apple mac, Bose sound systems and the Google Homepage. The engineer or Techi wants to add things and make it more complicated to show what they can do. The designers original idea normally gets diluted as time goes on. Hop in a new Range Rover and they are really simple and clean inside. It adjusts the diffs and ESP itself even without you having to do it. Compare this with the Porsche Panamera. There are upwards of 32 buttons on the dash and console, with another 18 buttons surrounding the screen.This video highlights how this balance of technology, engieering and end user interaction very well. Clicky
Daniel1 said:
Well it does kind of make sense to mention it when there is a thread about one.
Ha! Some people think that if you have a negative view on a product, you should not mention it. Why? The whole point of having this thread is to start a discussion. I've said my piece and already some moron is calling me a 'Troll', when in fact all he is doing is projecting himself on me.
sisu said:
All of the best things are simple...Hop in a new Range Rover and they are really simple and clean inside. Compare this with the Porsche Panamera. There are upwards of 32 buttons on the dash and console, with another 18 buttons surrounding the screen.
It depends what you mean by simple. The RR might 'look' simple - until, that is, you actually want to 'do' something like switch on your seat heaters. Then you have to trawl through a distracting and not so simple menu on the touch screen.On the Panamera or Cayenne etc, you just extend your arm slightly and press a button - which happens to be most peoples idea of simple.
And who wants a bare looking dashboard. A lot of cars get criticised for having bland featureless interiors. Why, all of a sudden, is it considered a good thing just because it's appeared in a RR?
Cobnapint said:
sisu said:
All of the best things are simple...Hop in a new Range Rover and they are really simple and clean inside. Compare this with the Porsche Panamera. There are upwards of 32 buttons on the dash and console, with another 18 buttons surrounding the screen.
It depends what you mean by simple. The RR might 'look' simple - until, that is, you actually want to 'do' something like switch on your seat heaters. Then you have to trawl through a distracting and not so simple menu on the touch screen.On the Panamera or Cayenne etc, you just extend your arm slightly and press a button - which happens to be most peoples idea of simple.
And who wants a bare looking dashboard. A lot of cars get criticised for having bland featureless interiors. Why, all of a sudden, is it considered a good thing just because it's appeared in a RR?
Much prefer that to messing around with a touch screen invaribly missing the spot you want as you roll over a surface imperfection and your hand moves.
I'm sorry. I just don't GET the idea of an estate that can do 175mph.
I've just driven back from South of France in a 250CDI E-Class estate, loaded up with dog, wife, duty free and other junk.
It was a gloriously comfortable ride at an average 80mph at 2500 RPM with more than enough urge to get past dawdling trucks and caravans. More than 110mph would have been impossible for more than 20 seconds with the amount of traffic.
It did 45 mpg with an 80-liter tank so I didn't have to waste time stopping to refuel until I got to London.
Thus I probably got point to point more quickly than an RS6. And with enough left in the bank account to buy a slightly-used 911.
I've just driven back from South of France in a 250CDI E-Class estate, loaded up with dog, wife, duty free and other junk.
It was a gloriously comfortable ride at an average 80mph at 2500 RPM with more than enough urge to get past dawdling trucks and caravans. More than 110mph would have been impossible for more than 20 seconds with the amount of traffic.
It did 45 mpg with an 80-liter tank so I didn't have to waste time stopping to refuel until I got to London.
Thus I probably got point to point more quickly than an RS6. And with enough left in the bank account to buy a slightly-used 911.
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