Turbo or NA, which do you prefer and why?

[skyrover]

cerb4.5lee said:

Turbo in the week and N/A for the weekend, the reason I say this is because when I ran a E92 M3 as a daily I didn't like the fact it felt flat on its bottom end and not much happened until 6k revs, whereas with Turbo's the power and punch is there with very little effort so far more usable.

You just need more displacement.

That's why 6+ litre V8's make great daily drivers

[stephen300o]

Both ok.

[PH XKR]

TheAngryDog said:

wormus said:

You should try a Monaro/VXR8 with a supercharger or twin turbos. Now that IS the best of both worlds. 800hp with rwd is excellent fun!

If Only vxr8's weren't so expensive in the first place talking £26000 to buy and supercharge one to 560bhp.

you have an e39 M5 which, believe it or not, is the better car and just as quick in stock vs stock. You can also vortech supercharge the M5 if you want more.

[cerb4.5lee]

skyrover said:

cerb4.5lee said:

Turbo in the week and N/A for the weekend, the reason I say this is because when I ran a E92 M3 as a daily I didn't like the fact it felt flat on its bottom end and not much happened until 6k revs, whereas with Turbo's the power and punch is there with very little effort so far more usable.

You just need more displacement.

That's why 6+ litre V8's make great daily drivers

Yes and I reckon something like a 6.2 C63 AMG would do the job nicely

[MurderousCrow]

High-revving, well-mapped turbo engine with flat torque curve does it for me, best of all worlds IMO.

IRT lag, everyone talks about it but I'm not convinced it has to be an issue. I think a lot of people confuse lag for being 'off-boost' which is exactly analogous to not keeping the revs up on an N/A engine (this must've been mentioned already but have not read entire thread).

I've run two Imprezas with large aftermarket turbos, both mapped by specialists: throttle response once on boost definitely comparable with a good N/A engine (my other car has a high-revving small displacement engine).

[skyrover]

MurderousCrow said:

IRT lag, everyone talks about it but I'm not convinced it has to be an issue. I think a lot of people confuse lag for being 'off-boost' which is exactly analogous to not keeping the revs up on an N/A engine (this must've been mentioned already but have not read entire thread).

No... a turbo engine will ever match a N/A for throttle response.

Watch this comparison between the M4 and Camaro

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D87tO7VUs2I

[otolith]

skyrover said:

No... a turbo engine will ever match a N/A for throttle response.

Watch this comparison between the M4 and Camaro

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D87tO7VUs2I

OT, but I can't help thinking I'd rather have those two on TG than Evans.

[Monty Python]

I don't have a preference as I've not driven enough to come to a conclusion. I'm sure there are some brilliant and some woeful engines in each category, so "none" would be my answer.

[MurderousCrow]

skyrover said:

No... a turbo engine will ever match a N/A for throttle response.

MurderousCrow said:

IMO

MurderousCrow said:

throttle response once on boost definitely comparable with a good N/A engine.

MurderousCrow said:

IMO

Monty Python said:

I don't have a preference as I've not driven enough to come to a conclusion. I'm sure there are some brilliant and some woeful engines in each category, so "none" would be my answer.

Which is an excellent point. If the OP meant 'what would you have all other things being equal' I'd say...

N/A. For the induction noise!

(...Although my rotated turbo makes a lovely induction whoosh.)

[anonymous-user]

TheAngryDog said:

Bargain price!

If a vxr8 with a charger came up for that price lol. I know one won't though.

I can charge my M5 for around 10k including various upgrades, for around the 600bhp mark. I've heard of a supposed 650bhp vxr8 in the north east but no dyno graph to back up the claims and it's on a tvs3200 kit. According to monkfish they produce another 120bhp so it would need something else for the other 100bhp increase

Not quite accurate. 120hp claim for that blower is only 6psi boost, mine runs 14psi for a slightly better result. An LS2 (6.0L) Monaro or VXR8 will easily make about 670hp with a TVS2300 and an otherwise stock engine. You do need to beef up the clutch and fuel pump though and a blower-friendly cam also helps. Beyond that you need a set of forged pistons and 750hp is possible with the same blower.

My Monaro was built by Monkfish and is far from standard. It made a proven 824hp on an engine dyno. That's about the limit of the TVS2300 though and beyond that you are better off with turbos. One of the HSV forum members put a 7 litre LSX version in his, bolted on a pair of turbos and it made 1200hp. Bit much on the road though and even with a piffling 800hp, you still get 100mph wheelspin if you are heavy footed.

One of our members did over 200mph in a mile at Bruntingthorpe (VMax) in his twin turbo Monaro, that was with 3 passengers too!

Edited by anonymous-user on Saturday 30th April 14:19

[greenarrow]

Aside from when I am on a motorway, I prefer n/a every day....I just like the throttle response and immediacy, no worries about bogging down off the line or joining roundabouts....I think the basic recipe of RWD and n/a engine in a sports car still cant be beaten.....

..but when I was coming back down the A34 last week, I really did wish my car had a turbo so I could push past the ditherers and suicidal late lane change lorries without needing to change down from 6th to 4th every single time!

[IntriguedUser]

N/A for me

Toyota Corolla T Sport is what I'm in at the moment, just amazing.

I did own a Corsa C with a 2.0T engine conversion... Boring, dull, lifeless, effortlessly quick

[TheAngryDog]

wormus said:

Not quite accurate. 120hp claim for that blower is only 6psi boost, mine runs 14psi for a slightly better result. An LS2 (6.0L) Monaro or VXR8 will easily make about 670hp with a TVS2300 and an otherwise stock engine. You do need to beef up the clutch and fuel pump though and a blower-friendly cam also helps. Beyond that you need a set of forged pistons and 750hp is possible with the same blower.

My Monaro was built by Monkfish and is far from standard. It made a proven 824hp on an engine dyno. That's about the limit of the TVS2300 though and beyond that you are better off with turbos. One of the HSV forum members put a 7 litre LSX version in his, bolted on a pair of turbos and it made 1200hp. Bit much on the road though and even with a piffling 800hp, you still get 100mph wheelspin if you are heavy footed.

One of our members did over 200mph in a mile at Bruntingthorpe (VMax) in his twin turbo Monaro, that was with 3 passengers too!

Edited by wormus on Saturday 30th April 14:19

You're still looking at North of £28k including buying the car at the least for that. That's f10 M5 money and a cheeky remap will see you over 700bhp. That's not a dig at the vxr8, but it is alot of money to spend

[TheAngryDog]

PH XKR said:

TheAngryDog said:

wormus said:

You should try a Monaro/VXR8 with a supercharger or twin turbos. Now that IS the best of both worlds. 800hp with rwd is excellent fun!

If Only vxr8's weren't so expensive in the first place talking £26000 to buy and supercharge one to 560bhp.

you have an e39 M5 which, believe it or not, is the better car and just as quick in stock vs stock. You can also vortech supercharge the M5 if you want more.

In what ways is the M5 the better car? They weigh similar, have similar power and the M5 has heated seats and the vxr8 does not.

Yeah I know about supercharged M5's. It is a road I may go down at somepoint

[PH XKR]

TheAngryDog said:

wormus said:

Not quite accurate. 120hp claim for that blower is only 6psi boost, mine runs 14psi for a slightly better result. An LS2 (6.0L) Monaro or VXR8 will easily make about 670hp with a TVS2300 and an otherwise stock engine. You do need to beef up the clutch and fuel pump though and a blower-friendly cam also helps. Beyond that you need a set of forged pistons and 750hp is possible with the same blower.

My Monaro was built by Monkfish and is far from standard. It made a proven 824hp on an engine dyno. That's about the limit of the TVS2300 though and beyond that you are better off with turbos. One of the HSV forum members put a 7 litre LSX version in his, bolted on a pair of turbos and it made 1200hp. Bit much on the road though and even with a piffling 800hp, you still get 100mph wheelspin if you are heavy footed.

One of our members did over 200mph in a mile at Bruntingthorpe (VMax) in his twin turbo Monaro, that was with 3 passengers too!

Edited by wormus on Saturday 30th April 14:19

You're still looking at North of £28k including buying the car at the least for that. That's f10 M5 money and a cheeky remap will see you over 700bhp. That's not a dig at the vxr8, but it is alot of money to spend

The claims of an easy 670bhp on a stock LS engine is laughable. Wormus how many engines, rebuilds, blow ups, rebuilds has it taken for you to get your car to be a garage queen? I'd imagine nearly 100k has been spent.

[PH XKR]

TheAngryDog said:

PH XKR said:

TheAngryDog said:

wormus said:

You should try a Monaro/VXR8 with a supercharger or twin turbos. Now that IS the best of both worlds. 800hp with rwd is excellent fun!

If Only vxr8's weren't so expensive in the first place talking £26000 to buy and supercharge one to 560bhp.

you have an e39 M5 which, believe it or not, is the better car and just as quick in stock vs stock. You can also vortech supercharge the M5 if you want more.

In what ways is the M5 the better car? They weigh similar, have similar power and the M5 has heated seats and the vxr8 does not.

Yeah I know about supercharged M5's. It is a road I may go down at somepoint

Headline hp does not paint the picture. I've had them all and my stock e39 could not be shaken by a "600" bhp VXR8 despite the driver trying (we were in convoy). The gearing on the e39 is absolutely spot on, the gearing in the Monaro/VXR8 came from an oil tanker. The other picture not being painted, aside from the near 6 figure costs and numerous rebuilds, is the 200mph Monaro would require a full rebuild every 3 weeks.

[anonymous-user]

PH XKR said:

The claims of an easy 670bhp on a stock LS engine is laughable. Wormus how many engines, rebuilds, blow ups, rebuilds has it taken for you to get your car to be a garage queen? I'd imagine nearly 100k has been spent.

Not laughable at all. Plenty of people have done it, do some research.

[PH XKR]

wormus said:

PH XKR said:

The claims of an easy 670bhp on a stock LS engine is laughable. Wormus how many engines, rebuilds, blow ups, rebuilds has it taken for you to get your car to be a garage queen? I'd imagine nearly 100k has been spent.

Not laughable at all. Plenty of people have done it, do some research.

How many rebuilds? How much did your 872bhp cost and how many engines did it take to get there? If you are going to suggest that putting FI to an engine designed for N/A is a cheap and reliable thing to do, I think it only fair you paint the other side too.

The LS is an epic engine, yes it can take FI but it isn't meant to on stock internals and over the years I have seen many engines requiring new rebuilds because they were on stock.

[HappyMidget]

High capacity supercharged for me.

Goldy hasn't blown up his supercharged LS3 and that is near enough 700bhp iirc. Same with 007's LS2(?). Not cheap mind. Much better to swap in a crate LSA that is designed for FI and go from there IMO.

[xRIEx]

wormus said:

PH XKR said:

The claims of an easy 670bhp on a stock LS engine is laughable. Wormus how many engines, rebuilds, blow ups, rebuilds has it taken for you to get your car to be a garage queen? I'd imagine nearly 100k has been spent.

Not laughable at all. Plenty of people have done it, do some research.

Yep. Chevy, for a start.