Hybrids - its a tax thing not an mpg thing isn't it?
Discussion
[quote=AnotherClarkey]My Prius is very cheap to run. £10 a year in VED, £95/£200 services from excellent dealers, solid 56-57mpg average (over 30,000 miles) and no faults. It is also very smooth, refined, spacious and packed with toys. I don't think I would buy a new one but at three years old they make an excellent private buy.
Look on real world databases like spritmonitor, fuelly, honestjohn for an indication of actual mpg. My experience is that most people and especially journalists like to denigrate the economy of hybrids while making over-inflated mpg claims for diesels. Diesel autos, in particular, are pretty appalling for economy (with the noble exception of the latest BMW 320d efficient dynamics which only about 5mpg less economical than the latest Prius - still sound like a f
king tractor though).
This - wanted out of the PCP plan on my Lexus IS250, ended up driving off with a Prius as part of the deal. Thought I would hate it. Loved it, cost £9,500 kept it for three years never missed a beat, main dealer servicing comically cheap c£100' tax £10 per year, the only other cost of 35,000 miles of owenership was four news tyres for about £350. Upwards of 50mpg.
Actually a very nice place to sit (full leather and every toys you could think of).
Traded it in after three years for £5,500.
Would have another if I didn't need an estate for the dog.
Look on real world databases like spritmonitor, fuelly, honestjohn for an indication of actual mpg. My experience is that most people and especially journalists like to denigrate the economy of hybrids while making over-inflated mpg claims for diesels. Diesel autos, in particular, are pretty appalling for economy (with the noble exception of the latest BMW 320d efficient dynamics which only about 5mpg less economical than the latest Prius - still sound like a f
king tractor though).This - wanted out of the PCP plan on my Lexus IS250, ended up driving off with a Prius as part of the deal. Thought I would hate it. Loved it, cost £9,500 kept it for three years never missed a beat, main dealer servicing comically cheap c£100' tax £10 per year, the only other cost of 35,000 miles of owenership was four news tyres for about £350. Upwards of 50mpg.
Actually a very nice place to sit (full leather and every toys you could think of).
Traded it in after three years for £5,500.
Would have another if I didn't need an estate for the dog.
HappySilver said:
Loved it, cost £9,500 kept it for three years never missed a beat, main dealer servicing comically cheap c£100' tax £10 per year, the only other cost of 35,000 miles of owenership was four news tyres for about £350. Upwards of 50mpg.
You needed new tyres within 35K miles? You boy racer, you 
.I was over 50K before I had to replace my first two - and only then because all grip had gone from the Michelins, not because they were anywhere close to the legal limit.
Garvin said:
AnotherClarkey said:
You seem a little confused.
Really, pray do explain? If I have this all wrong please do educate me.Most electricity used by hybrids is generated during braking - energy that would otherwise be wasted heating up the brakes. The petrol engine rarely charges the battery directly.
Even the small NiMh battery in the Prius only weighs 44Kg and lithium based packs will be lighter. They do not have to be disposed of at end of life and can be almost completely recycled. They have a replacement cost similar to a new turbo on a BMW 320d but seem considerably more reliable.
With the exception of small numbers of plug-in hybrids they are not plugged into the mains and therefore impose no load on the grid whatsoever.
Most hybrids are just very efficient petrol burning cars and are generally taxed on a similar basis. Even if tax goes up you will still be left with a very cheap to run, efficient, reliable car.
Does this help? I think you were wrong on every single point - at least you are consistent.
Garvin said:
It's a con, no more, no less.
What's the point of having an internal combustion engine to drive an alternator to generate electricity locally for the electric motors? It's patently obvious that this is never going to produce huge increases in mpg. What does this really save in an environmentally caring save the world sort of way?
What's the point in having huge heavy LiIon batteries that are very environmentally unfriendly to make in the first place and to dispose of at end of life and then charging the car up using electricty generated miles and miles away from burning gas, oil, coal or whatever? What does this really save in an environmentally caring save the world sort of way?
In case people haven't noticed but, in the UK, we have a real problem in meeting electricity demand in future years due to under capacity in the generating industry - why anyone would want to put further load on this system is beyond my comprehension! What happens to the price when a commodity becomes short in supply?
Youre not talking about a hybrid thereWhat's the point of having an internal combustion engine to drive an alternator to generate electricity locally for the electric motors? It's patently obvious that this is never going to produce huge increases in mpg. What does this really save in an environmentally caring save the world sort of way?
What's the point in having huge heavy LiIon batteries that are very environmentally unfriendly to make in the first place and to dispose of at end of life and then charging the car up using electricty generated miles and miles away from burning gas, oil, coal or whatever? What does this really save in an environmentally caring save the world sort of way?
In case people haven't noticed but, in the UK, we have a real problem in meeting electricity demand in future years due to under capacity in the generating industry - why anyone would want to put further load on this system is beyond my comprehension! What happens to the price when a commodity becomes short in supply?
A hybrid doesnt take power from the mains, it charges its own batteries when the engine is lightly loaded and uses an electric motor to boost the engine if it needs more power. The plan is to keep the engine at a flat load using the electric to smooth out peaks and troughs
If you want to charge the batteries overnight you can do that but you'll need larger batteries to make it worthwhile.
An engine alternator motor is what they use on trains to keep the engine at its optimum operating point and using the electrics to do the gearing.
Or similar
Well, some hybrids can be plugged in (like mine for instance).
3 units of electricity (almost always off peak on my E7 tariff) take you a remarkable distance (14-15 miles, typically, depending on speed, acceleration etc) and the car's even more economical than a regular Prius even when you've used this main charge.
It works, that's all I really have to say.
3 units of electricity (almost always off peak on my E7 tariff) take you a remarkable distance (14-15 miles, typically, depending on speed, acceleration etc) and the car's even more economical than a regular Prius even when you've used this main charge.
It works, that's all I really have to say.
AnotherClarkey said:
Garvin said:
AnotherClarkey said:
You seem a little confused.
Really, pray do explain? If I have this all wrong please do educate me.Most electricity used by hybrids is generated during braking - energy that would otherwise be wasted heating up the brakes. The petrol engine rarely charges the battery directly.
Even the small NiMh battery in the Prius only weighs 44Kg and lithium based packs will be lighter. They do not have to be disposed of at end of life and can be almost completely recycled. They have a replacement cost similar to a new turbo on a BMW 320d but seem considerably more reliable.
With the exception of small numbers of plug-in hybrids they are not plugged into the mains and therefore impose no load on the grid whatsoever.
Most hybrids are just very efficient petrol burning cars and are generally taxed on a similar basis. Even if tax goes up you will still be left with a very cheap to run, efficient, reliable car.
Does this help? I think you were wrong on every single point - at least you are consistent.
There is no reason to dismiss the plug in hybrid so I can't for the life of me see why the points I made are wrong. They are, of course, correct. Indeed they were posed as questions so can't really be wrong.
Now lets turn our attention to batteries - you seem to be saying that the production of NiMH or LiIon batteries is not detrimental to the environment. Am I wrong on this point? I think not. As for recycling, have a look at what it takes to recycle such 'technology', it's nowhere near as simple as recycling common plastics and metals - again, I don't think my point is wrong.
Now let's look at the total mass involved in a hybrid - what about the mass of the electric motors/energy scavenging systems? In a hybrid they, as well as the batteries, are additional mass to the traditional power plant and fuel. Therefore, trying to allude to the Prius needing only an extra 44kg is a bit wide of the mark.
Considering taxation, granted only time will tell ........... but experience tells me there is a very low probablity of me being wrong on this one.
So, I do not think I need your help in understanding, help to comprehend the bigger picture is required elsewhere.
Garvin said:
Wrong on every single point? I see that the confusion does not lie with me!
There is no reason to dismiss the plug in hybrid so I can't for the life of me see why the points I made are wrong. They are, of course, correct. Indeed they were posed as questions so can't really be wrong.
Now lets turn our attention to batteries - you seem to be saying that the production of NiMH or LiIon batteries is not detrimental to the environment. Am I wrong on this point? I think not. As for recycling, have a look at what it takes to recycle such 'technology', it's nowhere near as simple as recycling common plastics and metals - again, I don't think my point is wrong.
Now let's look at the total mass involved in a hybrid - what about the mass of the electric motors/energy scavenging systems? In a hybrid they, as well as the batteries, are additional mass to the traditional power plant and fuel. Therefore, trying to allude to the Prius needing only an extra 44kg is a bit wide of the mark.
Considering taxation, granted only time will tell ........... but experience tells me there is a very low probablity of me being wrong on this one.
So, I do not think I need your help in understanding, help to comprehend the bigger picture is required elsewhere.
I personally believe that anyone who complains about the environmental footprint of a hybrid should be forced to walk anywhere for the rest of their livesThere is no reason to dismiss the plug in hybrid so I can't for the life of me see why the points I made are wrong. They are, of course, correct. Indeed they were posed as questions so can't really be wrong.
Now lets turn our attention to batteries - you seem to be saying that the production of NiMH or LiIon batteries is not detrimental to the environment. Am I wrong on this point? I think not. As for recycling, have a look at what it takes to recycle such 'technology', it's nowhere near as simple as recycling common plastics and metals - again, I don't think my point is wrong.
Now let's look at the total mass involved in a hybrid - what about the mass of the electric motors/energy scavenging systems? In a hybrid they, as well as the batteries, are additional mass to the traditional power plant and fuel. Therefore, trying to allude to the Prius needing only an extra 44kg is a bit wide of the mark.
Considering taxation, granted only time will tell ........... but experience tells me there is a very low probablity of me being wrong on this one.
So, I do not think I need your help in understanding, help to comprehend the bigger picture is required elsewhere.
Otherwise they are huge hypocrites
Garvin said:
Now let's look at the total mass involved in a hybrid - what about the mass of the electric motors/energy scavenging systems? In a hybrid they, as well as the batteries, are additional mass to the traditional power plant and fuel. Therefore, trying to allude to the Prius needing only an extra 44kg is a bit wide of the mark.
If youre talking about a Prius specificallyYou have a smaller engine than normal but that's compensated for by adding an electric motor
You lose a clutch and gearbox but you have batteries instead.
As long as the losses in charging the battery and driving a motor are better than keeping an engine operating in its conventional sense it wins.
If you try to go further than that the energy density of petrol and diesel is much better than that of batteries but it is a one way way process
Edited by saaby93 on Sunday 18th August 12:15
Garvin said:
Really, pray do explain? If I have this all wrong please do educate me.
The point is that an internal combustion engine cannot be efficient at the sort of loads required to trundle around town in a traffic jam, and be half-decent at motorway speeds. Nor can it turn kinetic energy back into petrol.An electric motor + battery can recover kinetic energy, and work reasonably well at a wide range of loads, but as we've repeatedly seen it's not currently feasible to get a decent range out of a car which stores its energy in batteries.
Ergo, something which uses an fuel tank to store most of the energy (and therefore an engine somewhere) and a partly-electric drivetrain can have an advantage.
The next distinction is between series or plug-in hybrids - where the engine exists only to supply electricity, like a train - and parallel hybrids, where the engine can drive the wheels directly like a normal car. The latter can be more efficient at motorway speeds, since it is avoiding the mechanical-electrical-mechanical energy conversion, but is more complex and therefore usually heavier (although possibly not, as a parallel hybrid will likely carry a much smaller battery)
Edited by paranoid airbag on Sunday 18th August 12:18
Garvin said:
Wrong on every single point? I see that the confusion does not lie with me!
There is no reason to dismiss the plug in hybrid so I can't for the life of me see why the points I made are wrong. They are, of course, correct. Indeed they were posed as questions so can't really be wrong.
Now lets turn our attention to batteries - you seem to be saying that the production of NiMH or LiIon batteries is not detrimental to the environment. Am I wrong on this point? I think not. As for recycling, have a look at what it takes to recycle such 'technology', it's nowhere near as simple as recycling common plastics and metals - again, I don't think my point is wrong.
Now let's look at the total mass involved in a hybrid - what about the mass of the electric motors/energy scavenging systems? In a hybrid they, as well as the batteries, are additional mass to the traditional power plant and fuel. Therefore, trying to allude to the Prius needing only an extra 44kg is a bit wide of the mark.
Considering taxation, granted only time will tell ........... but experience tells me there is a very low probablity of me being wrong on this one.
So, I do not think I need your help in understanding, help to comprehend the bigger picture is required elsewhere.
Given that the thread is about hybrids and not about plug-in hybrids I believe my point about not plugging them in stands.There is no reason to dismiss the plug in hybrid so I can't for the life of me see why the points I made are wrong. They are, of course, correct. Indeed they were posed as questions so can't really be wrong.
Now lets turn our attention to batteries - you seem to be saying that the production of NiMH or LiIon batteries is not detrimental to the environment. Am I wrong on this point? I think not. As for recycling, have a look at what it takes to recycle such 'technology', it's nowhere near as simple as recycling common plastics and metals - again, I don't think my point is wrong.
Now let's look at the total mass involved in a hybrid - what about the mass of the electric motors/energy scavenging systems? In a hybrid they, as well as the batteries, are additional mass to the traditional power plant and fuel. Therefore, trying to allude to the Prius needing only an extra 44kg is a bit wide of the mark.
Considering taxation, granted only time will tell ........... but experience tells me there is a very low probablity of me being wrong on this one.
So, I do not think I need your help in understanding, help to comprehend the bigger picture is required elsewhere.
Where did I say that battery manufacture is not detrimental to the environment?
If all the hybrid stuff weighs so much why does my 2009 Prius weigh 50kg less than a 2009 Golf diesel auto despite being larger?
If the government suddenly woke up today to their massive loss in tax revenue and taxed my car exactly the same as a normal petrol or diesel I would have to cough up an extra £10. Big whoop.
saaby93 said:
Garvin said:
It's a con, no more, no less.
What's the point of having an internal combustion engine to drive an alternator to generate electricity locally for the electric motors? It's patently obvious that this is never going to produce huge increases in mpg. What does this really save in an environmentally caring save the world sort of way?
What's the point in having huge heavy LiIon batteries that are very environmentally unfriendly to make in the first place and to dispose of at end of life and then charging the car up using electricty generated miles and miles away from burning gas, oil, coal or whatever? What does this really save in an environmentally caring save the world sort of way?
In case people haven't noticed but, in the UK, we have a real problem in meeting electricity demand in future years due to under capacity in the generating industry - why anyone would want to put further load on this system is beyond my comprehension! What happens to the price when a commodity becomes short in supply?
Youre not talking about a hybrid thereWhat's the point of having an internal combustion engine to drive an alternator to generate electricity locally for the electric motors? It's patently obvious that this is never going to produce huge increases in mpg. What does this really save in an environmentally caring save the world sort of way?
What's the point in having huge heavy LiIon batteries that are very environmentally unfriendly to make in the first place and to dispose of at end of life and then charging the car up using electricty generated miles and miles away from burning gas, oil, coal or whatever? What does this really save in an environmentally caring save the world sort of way?
In case people haven't noticed but, in the UK, we have a real problem in meeting electricity demand in future years due to under capacity in the generating industry - why anyone would want to put further load on this system is beyond my comprehension! What happens to the price when a commodity becomes short in supply?
A hybrid doesnt take power from the mains, it charges its own batteries when the engine is lightly loaded and uses an electric motor to boost the engine if it needs more power. The plan is to keep the engine at a flat load using the electric to smooth out peaks and troughs
If you want to charge the batteries overnight you can do that but you'll need larger batteries to make it worthwhile.
An engine alternator motor is what they use on trains to keep the engine at its optimum operating point and using the electrics to do the gearing.
Or similar
I know all about the theory. The electric motors still require electricity, this is generated using the internal combustion engine via what? I think you'll find an alternator or similar in there somewhere. Sorry if I gave the impression that this drives the motors directly (it's not what I stated though)- the batteries still need to be charged with this electricity which is then used by the electric motors.
Electric motors are great - they produce all their torque at zero rpm and that is why the diesel-electric powerplant was originally designed for trains of humungous tonnage.
Yes, they are almost entirely chosen for tax reasons. Company car tax is lower than even the most efficient diesels and threre are also companies who want to keep fleet average CO2 low for CSR reasons so they tick that box nicely.
With a normal driver they will never get close to published MPG figures, unless you do a very specific mix of A road and urban driving to maximise the regen braking and elecrric assist efficiency. Yes, there are people who get 60+ mpg from them, but these are the same people who achieve seemingly implausible MPG numbers from anything they drive, and it's effectively a self selecting sample - if you choose to spend your own money on a Prius (or similar) you are almost certainly someone who values economy above all else and will drive accordingly to maximise these benefits.
I know someone who manages to average 70mpg from an Alfa MiTo 1.3 diesel, put him in a Prius and I'm sure he'd do the same or even more, but that's down to his personal style and attitude to driving. The Prius has a very narrow operating range if you want maximum efficiency, if you go outside this you're driving a heavy family car with a small engine as the electric assist won't be helping you.
For me, as someone who lives in the countryside and does very little urban driving I'd struggle to better the 49mpg I get from my diesel BMW. The problem is that the vast majority of the population have no idea how to drive economically, and with something so tuned to be driven in a particular way this is exasperated and means that a lot of people who buy a hybrid for the first time won't buy another after that.
The Merc E300 is different, as it's a perfectly respectable car without the electric assist, the hybrid bit effectively makes it a 6 pot rather than 4, whereas the Prius has a seriously underpowered petrol engine which has to be flogged to death to get the car to move if you've used up all the battery power.
With a normal driver they will never get close to published MPG figures, unless you do a very specific mix of A road and urban driving to maximise the regen braking and elecrric assist efficiency. Yes, there are people who get 60+ mpg from them, but these are the same people who achieve seemingly implausible MPG numbers from anything they drive, and it's effectively a self selecting sample - if you choose to spend your own money on a Prius (or similar) you are almost certainly someone who values economy above all else and will drive accordingly to maximise these benefits.
I know someone who manages to average 70mpg from an Alfa MiTo 1.3 diesel, put him in a Prius and I'm sure he'd do the same or even more, but that's down to his personal style and attitude to driving. The Prius has a very narrow operating range if you want maximum efficiency, if you go outside this you're driving a heavy family car with a small engine as the electric assist won't be helping you.
For me, as someone who lives in the countryside and does very little urban driving I'd struggle to better the 49mpg I get from my diesel BMW. The problem is that the vast majority of the population have no idea how to drive economically, and with something so tuned to be driven in a particular way this is exasperated and means that a lot of people who buy a hybrid for the first time won't buy another after that.
The Merc E300 is different, as it's a perfectly respectable car without the electric assist, the hybrid bit effectively makes it a 6 pot rather than 4, whereas the Prius has a seriously underpowered petrol engine which has to be flogged to death to get the car to move if you've used up all the battery power.
Garvin said:
I think you'll find some hybrids do plug in!
They do but that's an added featureGarvin said:
I know all about the theory. The electric motors still require electricity, this is generated using the internal combustion engine via what? I think you'll find an alternator or similar in there somewhere.
Often its just using the electric motor as a alternator.It's all about minimising losses. Keep the petrol engine at it's most efficient and save throttle losses etc
If say youre going down hill use excess energy from the engine to charge the battery
going up hill use capacity from the motor to help the engine.
There's nothing magic about it. It's still using fuel as the main source, just trying to use it most effiently.
If at very low speeds it's more efficient to drive by battery alone switch off the engine until the battery needs charging but using the engine just to charge the battery isnt that efficient. As soon as possible you want it driving wheels.
AnotherClarkey said:
Garvin said:
Wrong on every single point? I see that the confusion does not lie with me!
There is no reason to dismiss the plug in hybrid so I can't for the life of me see why the points I made are wrong. They are, of course, correct. Indeed they were posed as questions so can't really be wrong.
Now lets turn our attention to batteries - you seem to be saying that the production of NiMH or LiIon batteries is not detrimental to the environment. Am I wrong on this point? I think not. As for recycling, have a look at what it takes to recycle such 'technology', it's nowhere near as simple as recycling common plastics and metals - again, I don't think my point is wrong.
Now let's look at the total mass involved in a hybrid - what about the mass of the electric motors/energy scavenging systems? In a hybrid they, as well as the batteries, are additional mass to the traditional power plant and fuel. Therefore, trying to allude to the Prius needing only an extra 44kg is a bit wide of the mark.
Considering taxation, granted only time will tell ........... but experience tells me there is a very low probablity of me being wrong on this one.
So, I do not think I need your help in understanding, help to comprehend the bigger picture is required elsewhere.
Given that the thread is about hybrids and not about plug-in hybrids I believe my point about not plugging them in stands.There is no reason to dismiss the plug in hybrid so I can't for the life of me see why the points I made are wrong. They are, of course, correct. Indeed they were posed as questions so can't really be wrong.
Now lets turn our attention to batteries - you seem to be saying that the production of NiMH or LiIon batteries is not detrimental to the environment. Am I wrong on this point? I think not. As for recycling, have a look at what it takes to recycle such 'technology', it's nowhere near as simple as recycling common plastics and metals - again, I don't think my point is wrong.
Now let's look at the total mass involved in a hybrid - what about the mass of the electric motors/energy scavenging systems? In a hybrid they, as well as the batteries, are additional mass to the traditional power plant and fuel. Therefore, trying to allude to the Prius needing only an extra 44kg is a bit wide of the mark.
Considering taxation, granted only time will tell ........... but experience tells me there is a very low probablity of me being wrong on this one.
So, I do not think I need your help in understanding, help to comprehend the bigger picture is required elsewhere.
AnotherClarkey said:
Where did I say that battery manufacture is not detrimental to the environment?
I stated it in my earlier post and you stated I was wrong on every single point!AnotherClarkey said:
If all the hybrid stuff weighs so much why does my 2009 Prius weigh 50kg less than a 2009 Golf diesel auto despite being larger?
Hmmm, targetting a specific diesel engined car is a little narrow. Yes, diesel engines are very heavy.AnotherClarkey said:
If the government suddenly woke up today to their massive loss in tax revenue and taxed my car exactly the same as a normal petrol or diesel I would have to cough up an extra £10. Big whoop.
I think you'll find governments have a habit of changing taxation laws when they deem it necessary to raise additional revenue! The tax 'rules' of today are no guarantee of the tax 'rules' of the future. But, we'll just have to wait and see - I remember years ago when people were 
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