Hybrids - its a tax thing not an mpg thing isn't it?
Discussion
Garvin said:
I think you'll find governments have a habit of changing taxation laws when they deem it necessary to raise additional revenue! The tax 'rules' of today are no guarantee of the tax 'rules' of the future. But, we'll just have to wait and see - I remember years ago when people were conned encouraged to swap from diesel to petrol through the 'preferential' taxation applied to diesel fuel!
You are the one who piled in here stridently asserting that 'it is all a con' and you have singularly failed to back that up in any way.jamiebae said:
Yes, they are almost entirely chosen for tax reasons. Company car tax is lower than even the most efficient diesels and threre are also companies who want to keep fleet average CO2 low for CSR reasons so they tick that box nicely.
With a normal driver they will never get close to published MPG figures, unless you do a very specific mix of A road and urban driving to maximise the regen braking and elecrric assist efficiency. Yes, there are people who get 60+ mpg from them, but these are the same people who achieve seemingly implausible MPG numbers from anything they drive, and it's effectively a self selecting sample - if you choose to spend your own money on a Prius (or similar) you are almost certainly someone who values economy above all else and will drive accordingly to maximise these benefits.
I know someone who manages to average 70mpg from an Alfa MiTo 1.3 diesel, put him in a Prius and I'm sure he'd do the same or even more, but that's down to his personal style and attitude to driving. The Prius has a very narrow operating range if you want maximum efficiency, if you go outside this you're driving a heavy family car with a small engine as the electric assist won't be helping you.
For me, as someone who lives in the countryside and does very little urban driving I'd struggle to better the 49mpg I get from my diesel BMW. The problem is that the vast majority of the population have no idea how to drive economically, and with something so tuned to be driven in a particular way this is exasperated and means that a lot of people who buy a hybrid for the first time won't buy another after that.
The Merc E300 is different, as it's a perfectly respectable car without the electric assist, the hybrid bit effectively makes it a 6 pot rather than 4, whereas the Prius has a seriously underpowered petrol engine which has to be flogged to death to get the car to move if you've used up all the battery power.
So even in a thread where owners give the various reasons why they buy them you say say they are almost entirely bought for tax reasons. With a normal driver they will never get close to published MPG figures, unless you do a very specific mix of A road and urban driving to maximise the regen braking and elecrric assist efficiency. Yes, there are people who get 60+ mpg from them, but these are the same people who achieve seemingly implausible MPG numbers from anything they drive, and it's effectively a self selecting sample - if you choose to spend your own money on a Prius (or similar) you are almost certainly someone who values economy above all else and will drive accordingly to maximise these benefits.
I know someone who manages to average 70mpg from an Alfa MiTo 1.3 diesel, put him in a Prius and I'm sure he'd do the same or even more, but that's down to his personal style and attitude to driving. The Prius has a very narrow operating range if you want maximum efficiency, if you go outside this you're driving a heavy family car with a small engine as the electric assist won't be helping you.
For me, as someone who lives in the countryside and does very little urban driving I'd struggle to better the 49mpg I get from my diesel BMW. The problem is that the vast majority of the population have no idea how to drive economically, and with something so tuned to be driven in a particular way this is exasperated and means that a lot of people who buy a hybrid for the first time won't buy another after that.
The Merc E300 is different, as it's a perfectly respectable car without the electric assist, the hybrid bit effectively makes it a 6 pot rather than 4, whereas the Prius has a seriously underpowered petrol engine which has to be flogged to death to get the car to move if you've used up all the battery power.
I've owned one, so have others on this thread, we find them good value reliable, very economical, comfortable cars that do not cost the earth to buy (pun intended). Others who have not a owned them come along and tell us how terrible they are.
If they are not or you then simply don't buy/drive them. Why come up with all the spurious arguments about how terrible they are.....?
Tax only. Unless you run through a business or live inside the london congestion zone they don't really save any money. ie it's not free mileage as quoted....
I looked at electric cars for the wife, as it would suit her journeys perfectly. Nissan Leaf and Renault Zoe cost about the same as their petrol/diesel equivalents and then have battery rental on top. Problem is the battery rental works out about the same cost as the fuel that a normal car would use. Granted there's a bit of road-tax saving, but that just pays for the electricity used.
I looked at electric cars for the wife, as it would suit her journeys perfectly. Nissan Leaf and Renault Zoe cost about the same as their petrol/diesel equivalents and then have battery rental on top. Problem is the battery rental works out about the same cost as the fuel that a normal car would use. Granted there's a bit of road-tax saving, but that just pays for the electricity used.
Am I mising something? Is anyone seriously claiming these cars do 1000mpg and make your bed for you when you get home? It seems that some poeple want to believe that since these cars don't perform the above then they must be bought etirely and exclusively on the basis of relatively low BIK and RFL numbers alone.
How about, as has been stated repeatedly by people who actually own them, they are owned for a variety of sound reasons - to include their relatively low running costs?
I honestly don't understand why people seem to want to hate these cars simply because the means by which they are powered isn't entirely in the traditional way. What's the big deal? Bizarre.
How about, as has been stated repeatedly by people who actually own them, they are owned for a variety of sound reasons - to include their relatively low running costs?
I honestly don't understand why people seem to want to hate these cars simply because the means by which they are powered isn't entirely in the traditional way. What's the big deal? Bizarre.
HappySilver said:
So even in a thread where owners give the various reasons why they buy them you say say they are almost entirely bought for tax reasons.
I've owned one, so have others on this thread, we find them good value reliable, very economical, comfortable cars that do not cost the earth to buy (pun intended). Others who have not a owned them come along and tell us how terrible they are.
If they are not or you then simply don't buy/drive them. Why come up with all the spurious arguments about how terrible they are.....?
Not at all. The majority are bought as company cars for tax reasons when new, that's a fact. Secondhand you'd have to be a bit daft to buy your car based on road tax alone so it comes down to other factors too, plus basic economics dictating the price at which they have to be sold to allow the market to absorb the volume of three year old de-fleeted models.I've owned one, so have others on this thread, we find them good value reliable, very economical, comfortable cars that do not cost the earth to buy (pun intended). Others who have not a owned them come along and tell us how terrible they are.
If they are not or you then simply don't buy/drive them. Why come up with all the spurious arguments about how terrible they are.....?
As I said, for some people they are great but it all depends on the type of driving you do, for most drivers a diesel Golf or similar would be more economical, but if you do a lot of driving around town a Prius makes sense.
AnotherClarkey said:
My Prius is very cheap to run. £10 a year in VED, £95/£200 services from excellent dealers, solid 56-57mpg average (over 30,000 miles) and no faults. It is also very smooth, refined, spacious and packed with toys. I don't think I would buy a new one but at three years old they make an excellent private buy.
Look on real world databases like spritmonitor, fuelly, honestjohn for an indication of actual mpg. My experience is that most people and especially journalists like to denigrate the economy of hybrids while making over-inflated mpg claims for diesels. Diesel autos, in particular, are pretty appalling for economy (with the noble exception of the latest BMW 320d efficient dynamics which only about 5mpg less economical than the latest Prius - still sound like a f
king tractor though).
My VW Golf Bluemotion Tech has consistently averaged 56-59 mpg for 88,000 miles in 28 months, and I don't drive "economically". I also carry a boot full of work related kit around which hardly helps the mpg.Look on real world databases like spritmonitor, fuelly, honestjohn for an indication of actual mpg. My experience is that most people and especially journalists like to denigrate the economy of hybrids while making over-inflated mpg claims for diesels. Diesel autos, in particular, are pretty appalling for economy (with the noble exception of the latest BMW 320d efficient dynamics which only about 5mpg less economical than the latest Prius - still sound like a f
king tractor though).Edited by AnotherClarkey on Saturday 17th August 23:13
Edited by AnotherClarkey on Saturday 17th August 23:15
Other than servicing every 20k, 2 sets of front tyres and 1 set of rear tyres, it's needed nothing else. Not even so much as a bulb.
Why would I want a Prius?
Funnily enough my 1.6 diesel golf won't get above 45mpg in the driving environment I encounter - and I do drive economically minded the majority of the time. It's also broken down twice due to issues relating to DPF/EPG and been off the road as a consequence. In well under three years and 45,000 miles. This experience has been repeated far too frequently across other diesel golfs in our fleet (of around a hundred).
From a purely practical perspective a hybrid petrol would likely have been more economical and more reliable and probably cheaper. And larger.
I bet the decision to purchase or lease a bluemotion golf was made at least as much on its BIK and mpg as it would be for the majority of Prius (for example) purchases and leases. Why are there so few threads slagging off Bluemotion golfs (for those reasons)?
From a purely practical perspective a hybrid petrol would likely have been more economical and more reliable and probably cheaper. And larger.
I bet the decision to purchase or lease a bluemotion golf was made at least as much on its BIK and mpg as it would be for the majority of Prius (for example) purchases and leases. Why are there so few threads slagging off Bluemotion golfs (for those reasons)?
XDA said:
My VW Golf Bluemotion Tech has consistently averaged 56-59 mpg for 88,000 miles in 28 months, and I don't drive "economically". I also carry a boot full of work related kit around which hardly helps the mpg.
Other than servicing every 20k, 2 sets of front tyres and 1 set of rear tyres, it's needed nothing else. Not even so much as a bulb.
Why would I want a Prius?
Obviously your reasons are your own but there are good reasons for at least considering a Prius, even if some (or all) may not apply to you, e.g:Other than servicing every 20k, 2 sets of front tyres and 1 set of rear tyres, it's needed nothing else. Not even so much as a bulb.
Why would I want a Prius?
You want an auto.
You want to spend still less on fuel.
You want something with more space for passengers and luggage.
You want something with better 0-60 performance.
You want something more refined.
You want something with better equipment levels.
You want something with a longer warranty from a company with a better record of reliability.
scenario8 said:
Funnily enough my 1.6 diesel golf won't get above 45mpg in the driving environment I encounter - and I do drive economically minded the majority of the time. It's also broken down twice due to issues relating to DPF/EPG and been off the road as a consequence. In well under three years and 45,000 miles. This experience has been repeated far too frequently across other diesel golfs in our fleet (of around a hundred).
From a purely practical perspective a hybrid petrol would likely have been more economical and more reliable and probably cheaper. And larger.
I bet the decision to purchase or lease a bluemotion golf was made at least as much on its BIK and mpg as it would be for the majority of Prius (for example) purchases and leases. Why are there so few threads slagging off Bluemotion golfs (for those reasons)?
My employer runs a large Golf Bluemotion fleet (around 70) and I don't recall any DPF or mechanical issues.From a purely practical perspective a hybrid petrol would likely have been more economical and more reliable and probably cheaper. And larger.
I bet the decision to purchase or lease a bluemotion golf was made at least as much on its BIK and mpg as it would be for the majority of Prius (for example) purchases and leases. Why are there so few threads slagging off Bluemotion golfs (for those reasons)?
Yes, Bluemotion Golf's were chosen for the BIK and MPG.
AnotherClarkey said:
Obviously your reasons are your own but there are good reasons for at least considering a Prius, even if some (or all) may not apply to you, e.g:
You want an auto.
You want to spend still less on fuel.
You want something with more space for passengers and luggage.
You want something with better 0-60 performance.
You want something more refined.
You want something with better equipment levels.
You want something with a longer warranty from a company with a better record of reliability.
1. A Golf Bluemotion is available as an auto.You want an auto.
You want to spend still less on fuel.
You want something with more space for passengers and luggage.
You want something with better 0-60 performance.
You want something more refined.
You want something with better equipment levels.
You want something with a longer warranty from a company with a better record of reliability.
2. The Golf Bluemotion achieves 56-59 mpg, and probably more in the right hands.
3. The Golf Bluemotion is available as an estate.
4. The 0-62 of the Golf Bluemotion is very similiar to that of the Prius.
5. I wouldn't say a Prius is "more refined".
6. The spec of a Golf Bluemotion is pretty good and cheaper than a Prius.
7. I'm not so sure Toyota had a recent better record of reliability given recent recalls. I'm finding my Golf Bluemotion to be very reliable.
I still struggle to see why I'd choose a Prius?
XDA said:
My employer runs a large Golf Bluemotion fleet (around 70) and I don't recall any DPF or mechanical issues.
Yes, Bluemotion Golf's were chosen for the BIK and MPG.
I bet my fleet manager wishes he had your fleet manager's luck. The current fleet of diesel golfs are failing and falling apart at a much greater rate than they ever did in the past. It takes hardly any effort at all to find evidence of widespread mechanical issues with mark VI diesels. I'd suggest over the thousands of examples on the road a current model Prius is likely to be more reliable than a model VI diesel golf.Yes, Bluemotion Golf's were chosen for the BIK and MPG.
wrt fuel consumption I don't doubt if you borrowed my specific car for your purposes you would get 50mpg plus out of it but I also contend if I was driving your exact car for a month I'd be unlikely to better 45mpg - a significant drop over your 58. So just on the basis of fuel consumption our diesel golfs don't necessarily perform as well as a petrol hybrid would over the driving I endure. With an automatic gearbox I'm sure that would deteriorate further. If we were comparing automatic diesel passats to a Prius I don't doubt other observatins could be made.
There are a huge range of reaosns specific models are bought over another. I have no interest whatsoever in promoting hybrids, I just don't understand why so much negative energy is put into criticising them.
scenario8 said:
I bet my fleet manager wishes he had your fleet manager's luck. The current fleet of diesel golfs are failing and falling apart at a much greater rate than they ever did in the past. It takes hardly any effort at all to find evidence of widespread mechanical issues with mark VI diesels. I'd suggest over the thousands of examples on the road a current model Prius is likely to be more reliable than a model VI diesel golf.
wrt fuel consumption I don't doubt if you borrowed my specific car for your purposes you would get 50mpg plus out of it but I also contend if I was driving your exact car for a month I'd be unlikely to better 45mpg - a significant drop over your 58. So just on the basis of fuel consumption our diesel golfs don't necessarily perform as well as a petrol hybrid would over the driving I endure. With an automatic gearbox I'm sure that would deteriorate further. If we were comparing automatic diesel passats to a Prius I don't doubt other observatins could be made.
There are a huge range of reaosns specific models are bought over another. I have no interest whatsoever in promoting hybrids, I just don't understand why so much negative energy is put into criticising them.
I can only guess that people who have never owned one and have no desire to do so throw in all these, often factually incorrect, comments because they somehow feel threatened by them. For the life of me I cannot see why?wrt fuel consumption I don't doubt if you borrowed my specific car for your purposes you would get 50mpg plus out of it but I also contend if I was driving your exact car for a month I'd be unlikely to better 45mpg - a significant drop over your 58. So just on the basis of fuel consumption our diesel golfs don't necessarily perform as well as a petrol hybrid would over the driving I endure. With an automatic gearbox I'm sure that would deteriorate further. If we were comparing automatic diesel passats to a Prius I don't doubt other observatins could be made.
There are a huge range of reaosns specific models are bought over another. I have no interest whatsoever in promoting hybrids, I just don't understand why so much negative energy is put into criticising them.
XDA said:
AnotherClarkey said:
Obviously your reasons are your own but there are good reasons for at least considering a Prius, even if some (or all) may not apply to you, e.g:
You want an auto.
You want to spend still less on fuel.
You want something with more space for passengers and luggage.
You want something with better 0-60 performance.
You want something more refined.
You want something with better equipment levels.
You want something with a longer warranty from a company with a better record of reliability.
1. A Golf Bluemotion is available as an auto.You want an auto.
You want to spend still less on fuel.
You want something with more space for passengers and luggage.
You want something with better 0-60 performance.
You want something more refined.
You want something with better equipment levels.
You want something with a longer warranty from a company with a better record of reliability.
2. The Golf Bluemotion achieves 56-59 mpg, and probably more in the right hands.
3. The Golf Bluemotion is available as an estate.
4. The 0-62 of the Golf Bluemotion is very similiar to that of the Prius.
5. I wouldn't say a Prius is "more refined".
6. The spec of a Golf Bluemotion is pretty good and cheaper than a Prius.
7. I'm not so sure Toyota had a recent better record of reliability given recent recalls. I'm finding my Golf Bluemotion to be very reliable.
I still struggle to see why I'd choose a Prius?
Volkswagen are having their own issues with safety recalls at the moment but I wouldn't hold that against them - after all, recalls do not leave you stranded by the side of the road or cost you large sums of money.
The fact that the Golf is available as an estate is an advantage for many and I assume it can tow - which the Prius can't. Of course many will drive both and simply prefer one over the other for entirely subjective and personal reasons and that is fine.
AnotherClarkey said:
Garvin said:
I think you'll find governments have a habit of changing taxation laws when they deem it necessary to raise additional revenue! The tax 'rules' of today are no guarantee of the tax 'rules' of the future. But, we'll just have to wait and see - I remember years ago when people were conned encouraged to swap from diesel to petrol through the 'preferential' taxation applied to diesel fuel!
You are the one who piled in here stridently asserting that 'it is all a con' and you have singularly failed to back that up in any way.I realise those who have already committed to hybrids and the like will not take kindly to counter arguments that they are not as 'green' as made out to be or will remain as financially attractive as they currently are. It's what forums are about though - being able to discuss/debate topics and consider other views etc. Just because counter arguments are posed in the middle of a mutual love-in on hybrids doesn't make them wrong.
AnotherClarkey said:
Bonefish Blues said:
Roo said:
Wow, another hybrid bashing thread.
...but a lot more people who now stand up to be counted v-a-v hybrids 
McWigglebum4th said:
I personally believe that anyone who complains about the environmental footprint of a hybrid should be forced to walk anywhere for the rest of their lives
Otherwise they are huge hypocrites
Why shouldn't the 'supposed' green footprint be challenged? In my case I am not convinced that the overall environmental footprint of hybrids is as beneficial as it's made out to be - a lot of signifcant consequential effects are conveniently ignored by some.Otherwise they are huge hypocrites
It is my opinion that anyone who blindly believes the environmental hype without first investigating and fully understanding the total implications of hybrids and believes the current financial advantages will remain are, quite frankly, naive in the extreme and open to being conned.
Garvin said:
I realise those who have already committed to hybrids and the like will not take kindly to counter arguments that they are not as 'green' as made out to be or will remain as financially attractive as they currently are.
It's a tempting assumption to make that "green credentials" and tax treatment are the main motivators, but neither featured in our decision to buy one. Would buy another, but that's a judgement on the car as a whole rather than it specifically being a hybrid.If you're so minded, you can read more about our time with the car in this thread over in the Merc section: http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a... - on balance it's positive, but there's certainly scope for further improvements.
McWigglebum4th said:
Technomatt said:
The 'con' is you pay £22K for a Prius.
Rather that then a VWI'm not so sure about german reliability
And we dont need another series of your yeah but, no but, yeah but what if you actually have £22K to spend and you have to have a petrol auto with Zero VED and the only other car in the world is a Golf diesel.
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