"Pedestrians in the road" on the motorway, does anyone care?

[Gafferjim]

(quote)We had one yesterday, elderly driver has rejoined the motorway on the exit slip the wrong way at J## (/quote)

signals were set both c/ways for 20's, until both c/ways had been checked by police, they then came back with "no trace" so the driver must have realised his mistake and got himself off. signals were cleared as soon as the police gave authorisation to.

[Gafferjim]

Johnytheboy, there is no such thing as "Pedestrian on the hardshoulder" so please don't make up stories, there is only "Pedestrian in road, slow"

Edited by Gafferjim on Wednesday 4th September 19:21

[Johnnytheboy]

Gafferjim said:

Johnytheboy, there is no such sing as "Pedestrian on the hardshoulder" so please don't make up stories, there is only "Pedestrian in road, slow"

Not sure if serious.

[otolith]

Gafferjim said:

people like you ignore the signs

And, by the way, that's quite a jump of reasoning from an observation that the signs so frequently give useless information that people are likely to ignore them when there is a real problem.

[Gafferjim]

otolith said:

The problem with motorway matrix warnings is that they cry wolf more than half the time.

How many times do I have to tell you? if we get a report on ANYTHING that is, or could be "live lane" then signals have to be set. There is a procedure as to what is set;

Unless reported by HATO, Police, HA contractor or seen on cctv, then only 50's can be set (& usually "INCIDENT" but there are a couple of exceptions) even if the report says that there's a multiple RTC blocking the whole c/way. If there are a number of calls saying the same thing, in the same location, then signals can be reduced to 30's for a maximum of 2 signals prior the location (if confident about it) Once confirmation is made by any of the above (police, HATO, CCTV, HA Contractor ) then relevant lane closure can be set.

We have to set signals that cover the location given, If it's vaugue, then signals are spread, if a markerpost is known, then signals are localised.

SIGNALS CAN ONLY BE CHANGED OR CLEARED WITH THE AUTHORISATION OF THE HATO / POLICE PATROL AT SCENE, OR ONCE A SEARCH HAS BEEN MADE AND "NO TRACE" CONFIRMED.

[SGirl]

We saw a "Pedestrians on motorway" sign a couple of weeks ago. After at least five or six of these signs over quite a few miles, they were still appearing - and then we saw him. Some muppet walking along the hard shoulder, carrying a card with a name on it (didn't see what) and trying to thumb a lift. No sign of a car on the hard shoulder for miles, so he wasn't broken down anywhere.

The problem was that most people had got bored with not seeing the alleged pedestrian by this time and had sped back up to motorway speeds.

The signs are a good idea, but they have to be applied with a reasonable degree of accuracy otherwise people just don't believe them any more. How many times have we seen "debris in road", only to slow to 40 or 50 for at least ten miles and then see an "End" sign with no sign of debris?

Mind you, keeping tabs on exactly what's happening on the motorway must be difficult except on the bits covered by lots of CCTV. But that doesn't explain why the clearer-uppers of the debris can't radio in to say "got it, you can turn the signs off now".

[otolith]

Gafferjim said:

How many times do I have to tell you? if we get a report on ANYTHING that is, or could be "live lane" then signals have to be set. There is a procedure as to what is set;

Unless reported by HATO, Police, HA contractor or seen on cctv, then only 50's can be set (& usually "INCIDENT" but there are a couple of exceptions) even if the report says that there's a multiple RTC blocking the whole c/way. If there are a number of calls saying the same thing, in the same location, then signals can be reduced to 30's for a maximum of 2 signals prior the location (if confident about it) Once confirmation is made by any of the above (police, HATO, CCTV, HA Contractor ) then relevant lane closure can be set.

We have to set signals that cover the location given, If it's vaugue, then signals are spread, if a markerpost is known, then signals are localised.

SIGNALS CAN ONLY BE CHANGED OR CLEARED WITH THE AUTHORISATION OF THE HATO / POLICE PATROL AT SCENE, OR ONCE A SEARCH HAS BEEN MADE AND "NO TRACE" CONFIRMED.

IT DOESN'T MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE WHETHER IT IS YOUR FAULT OR NOT, THE SYSTEM IS STILL CRAP.

[carlove]

Gafferjim said:

We had one yesterday, elderly driver has rejoined the motorway on the exit slip the wrong way at J##

We don't know which direction (police call taker didn't get that, or informant never gave it) so exactly what would you like us to set????

Remember, this vehicle could be travelling at 70 mph the wrong way on the c/way, and you don't know which c/way.


Just go to youtube and search "car wrong way on motorway" then tell me it doesn't happen. I also have CCTV footage of a HGV wrong way in lane 3 around the M60 (but policy says that i can't put it on the 'net)

Edited by Gafferjim on Wednesday 4th September 18:32

I know it happens, there was a serious accident, possibly fatal I can't remember exactly, where another driver hit them head on on a dual carriageway.

If you don't know the direction that fair enough it just confused me a bit when I saw the sign on the other side.

I was ready to see the car coming and did slow down like almost everyone else, but I didn't think it'd be safe going down to 20 when there were still a small number of people going 70-80.

I have seen the "pedestrian in road" signs and seen people stood around a car on the shoulder.

[Gafferjim]

Gaz. said:

The amount of times I see "queue-caution" on a section of motorway at 4.45am that could be used as a back-up runway for Heathrow or Northolt airports is unbelievable. On many of those occasions I'm the only vehicle on the entire stretch -which is covered by CCTV.

Gaz, now that I can agree with. This is due to MIDAS (Motorway_Incident_Detection_and_Automatic_Signalling )
Basically, there are wire loops sunk into the road surface in each lane (on busy motorways, not all) these detact vehicles passing over them (similar to those prior a set of t/lights) they measure the average speed of the vehicles, and if the speed drops below 50mph, then 50's will automatically set and "Queue caution" on the VMS (Variable Message Sign)if the speed reduces even further, they'll go down to 40's.
Note; on some locations where there is a stretch of road with a reduced speed limit anyway, MIDAS will set lower speeds.

The system "looks" at this MIDAS loop approx every 4 minutes, if the average speed of vehicles has increased, then MIDAS will switch off the signs. The problem comes on nights especially, is that there needs to have been a number of vehicles pass over the loops faster to trigger switching them off, if only one or two have passed over, it ignores them. So a slow HGV, Abnormal load, or similar can set MIDAS active, with not enough traffic to trigger them off.

We have 14 motorways in our region, only a % is covered by CCTV, and on nights there can be only 3/4 of us. If the problem is reported to us, we do sort it.

[Baryonyx]

Best take heed of these notices, they are there for a reason! Better to proceed with caution than to disregard the sign and end up knocking someone over.

[Gafferjim]

No system is perfect, and cannot cover every eventually from every angle.
Signals are set according to tried and tested procedures, authorised by the government & Police.
Signals have to be set within 3 minutes of receiving the call, this includes typing out the information on the command & control system, passing it to radio despatch, setting the signals in the signals system itself (can take 2+ mins)
Signals must be cleared within 2 minutes of receiving the call from the HATO or Police patrol to do so.

There is a quality person who's job it is each day to pick out random jobs & check that everything is done within the time limits (there are other things as well as signals with time limits on) Everyone has a number of jobs checked within a week, anyone who doesn't conform to the time constraints, is asked to attend for a meeting "without coffee" with their supervisor, and would get put on a remedial training course.

With decent locations, there is nothing wrong with the system, it's down to the information passed to us.

otolith, If you can design a better system to cover all eventualities, or re-write the procedures, please contact the HA, I'm sure they'd love to hear from you.

Edited by Gafferjim on Wednesday 4th September 19:21

[s p a c e m a n]

Gafferjim said:

Gaz. said:

Gaz, now that I can agree with. This is due to MIDAS (Motorway_Incident_Detection_and_Automatic_Signalling )
Basically, there are wire loops sunk into the road surface in each lane (on busy motorways, not all) these detact vehicles passing over them (similar to those prior a set of t/lights) they measure the average speed of the vehicles, and if the speed drops below 50mph, then 50's will automatically set and "Queue caution" on the VMS (Variable Message Sign)if the speed reduces even further, they'll go down to 40's.
Note; on some locations where there is a stretch of road with a reduced speed limit anyway, MIDAS will set lower speeds.

First time that I have ever seen someone explain the reason for that, it wouldn't be so bad if there wern't speed cameras on the gantrys.

[jmorgan]

Johnnytheboy said:

otolith said:

The problem with motorway matrix warnings is that they cry wolf more than half the time.

The other problem is they start far too early, by the time you get to the supposed problem you think the signs must be wrong.

The last time I saw "pedestrian on hard shoulder" sure enough there was a guy strolling down the hard shoulder with a suit jacket over his shoulder looking like he didn't have a care in the road. Shortly after I saw a traffic police car sitting the hard shoulder waiting for him.

Come to Wales. The Assembly would appear to have a hand in traffic control. Not unusual to get a 50 many miles before it is needed. Eight miles warning set to 50 one night for an outside lane closure, hardly anyone around. Slight draft in the air and it is adverse weather signs up and mandatory 50 and when it is cats and dogs, caution, bad weather. As if we did not know.

Someone mentioned it is like crying wolf, certainly seems that way at times.

And I am convinced the 40 in heavy traffic is the real cause......

[Mabbs9]

Hi Gafferjim,

Some useful insights there. Due to the observed, high number of alerts for queues, with corresponding speed limits or speed advisories. Could human intervention check cameras, where available, before the limit goes on?

I travel the M40 and M25 frequently, my current tally shows that just over 60% of speed reductions and queue warnings, are false. It makes people ignore them when of course they could be helpful.

Also there is rarely a de-restriction sign after a limited section. Technically the (say) 40 zone, continues until there's another sign?

I'm sure the system is very expensive, I'm sure it can be lots of use, I wonder if you could feedback these thoughts?

ATB

Mabbs

Ps, no argument with your explanation for when information is vague from a report and safety related, makes complete sense.

[Leptons]

I saw some weirdo walking along the central reservation of the m606 last month. It does happen

[Gafferjim]

Mabbs9 said:

Hi Gafferjim,

Some useful insights there. Due to the observed, high number of alerts for queues, with corresponding speed limits or speed advisories. Could human intervention check cameras, where available, before the limit goes on?

I travel the M40 and M25 frequently, my current tally shows that just over 60% of speed reductions and queue warnings, are false. It makes people ignore them when of course they could be helpful.

Also there is rarely a de-restriction sign after a limited section. Technically the (say) 40 zone, continues until there's another sign?

I'm sure the system is very expensive, I'm sure it can be lots of use, I wonder if you could feedback these thoughts?

ATB

Mabbs

Ps, no argument with your explanation for when information is vague from a report and safety related, makes complete sense.

Hi Mabbs,

During the day, midas usually sorts itself out very well, if a slow HGV has tripped it, then at the most it'll only be on for 4 mins, so that HGV will not have got too far in front and you can guarantee that there'll still be queues behind it trying to pass it, so queues are still present, midas doing it's job. as I've said, during the night it can be different, and if we see it we'll sort it, but I can't remember when we last had a rough midas setting.

This is just part of our area, you can see very small squares next to the road, these are VMS settings, they can be anything from the "Don't drink & drive" type campaign messages (These are set by the NTIC down near Birmingham, and are authorised at the start of the year, ie what will be show, where, and for how long. The regional RCC have nothing to do with these.
Also some are the automatic messages i.e. "12 miles to J##. 10 mins" type of messages. these are set but cameras very similar to ANPR ones, they record the last 3 letters of a group of numberplates, time how log most of these take to get to the next point, then put the average time up. (never with a quicker time than 70 mph average) these can be a nuisance, as there can be an RTC between 2 junctions blocking the road to some degree, and it could take some time before that message changes to show the delay. (I personally over-write them with info about the incident)

This snapshot was taken when there was very little traffic on the network, to see the same when it's rush hour, it's lit up like a Christmas tree!
Also you can only see up to just past J27 on the M6, our area goes right up to Gretna Green and the border at Scotland, you need to move the screen around to see that part.

Network with permanent speed restrictions will have a de-restriction sign (round white diagonal black line) roadworks with a speed restriction should also have the nation de-restriction sign, but at least and "END" sign.

Edited by Gafferjim on Wednesday 4th September 21:02

Edited by Gafferjim on Wednesday 4th September 21:07

Edited by Gafferjim on Wednesday 4th September 21:09

[otolith]

Gafferjim said:

otolith, If you can design a better system to cover all eventualities, or re-write the procedures, please contact the HA, I'm sure they'd love to hear from you.

Fixing the problems you describe with MIDAS would remove a large chunk of false positives, for a start. Of course, that would require someone to (a) care that the system is broken and (b) pony up the money to fix it. Pretending there isn't a problem doesn't help!

[Gafferjim]

otolith said:

Fixing the problems you describe with MIDAS would remove a large chunk of false positives, for a start. Of course, that would require someone to (a) care that the system is broken and (b) pony up the money to fix it. Pretending there isn't a problem doesn't help!

otolith, you keep changing you goalpost! there is nothing wrong 99.9% of the time with MIDAS settings, I can't remember the last time there was a rogue one that needed dealing with. If you see "Queues" you can be sure that within the last 4 minutes, there was one. It may have been traffic queueing on an exit slip, that cleared as soon as the t/lights change, or some muppet that stopped to check his map, satnav, (believe me! they do it!! We've had drivers change wheels in the outside lane before now. how many times have you been held up in a "ghost queue" ??
We see them all the time, traffic is stopped, we check the CCTV to see why but there's nothing there, probably someone holding things up whilst they change lanes or something, it's a very common occurrence .

Edited by Gafferjim on Wednesday 4th September 21:20

[moribund]

Gafferjim - thanks for posting, interesting to hear how these things actually work

[Gafferjim]

If anyone wants to get 10 - 12 people together as a group, contact me by PM, I can try to get you into the RCC to see first-hand how it all works. (PS, near J23,M6)