"Pedestrians in the road" on the motorway, does anyone care?
Discussion
I often used to see people walking on the motorway (M20) a few years ago when I lived near Dover.
All were men in their 20's and I wondered where they were coming from.
I eventually realised after seeing a few climb out of the back of a lorry in a lay-by at the end of the A20 before it joins the M20.
They were indefinitely "visiting" England and are probably now proud owners of a hand car wash near you having been here a few years and brought all of their families over.
All were men in their 20's and I wondered where they were coming from.
I eventually realised after seeing a few climb out of the back of a lorry in a lay-by at the end of the A20 before it joins the M20.
They were indefinitely "visiting" England and are probably now proud owners of a hand car wash near you having been here a few years and brought all of their families over.
otolith said:
IT DOESN'T MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE WHETHER IT IS YOUR FAULT OR NOT, THE SYSTEM IS STILL CRAP.
It's crap because we as the Motoring public are s
t at telling someone who isn't with us in the car exactly where we are and even if we do the issue is that a pedestrian could cross the motorway or the stationary vehicle could be the kind of fkwit who would stop in a live lane after a bump to exchange details before driving off.
Gafferjim said:
Hi Mabbs,
During the day, midas usually sorts itself out very well, if a slow HGV has tripped it, then at the most it'll only be on for 4 mins, so that HGV will not have got too far in front and you can guarantee that there'll still be queues behind it trying to pass it, so queues are still present, midas doing it's job. as I've said, during the night it can be different, and if we see it we'll sort it, but I can't remember when we last had a rough midas setting.
This is just part of our area, you can see very small squares next to the road, these are VMS settings, they can be anything from the "Don't drink & drive" type campaign messages (These are set by the NTIC down near Birmingham, and are authorised at the start of the year, ie what will be show, where, and for how long. The regional RCC have nothing to do with these.
Also some are the automatic messages i.e. "12 miles to J##. 10 mins" type of messages. these are set but cameras very similar to ANPR ones, they record the last 3 letters of a group of numberplates, time how log most of these take to get to the next point, then put the average time up. (never with a quicker time than 70 mph average) these can be a nuisance, as there can be an RTC between 2 junctions blocking the road to some degree, and it could take some time before that message changes to show the delay. (I personally over-write them with info about the incident)
This snapshot was taken when there was very little traffic on the network, to see the same when it's rush hour, it's lit up like a Christmas tree!
Also you can only see up to just past J27 on the M6, our area goes right up to Gretna Green and the border at Scotland, you need to move the screen around to see that part.
Network with permanent speed restrictions will have a de-restriction sign (round white diagonal black line) roadworks with a speed restriction should also have the nation de-restriction sign, but at least and "END" sign.
Thats really informative, thanks for that. always find it interesting to learn how these things work.During the day, midas usually sorts itself out very well, if a slow HGV has tripped it, then at the most it'll only be on for 4 mins, so that HGV will not have got too far in front and you can guarantee that there'll still be queues behind it trying to pass it, so queues are still present, midas doing it's job. as I've said, during the night it can be different, and if we see it we'll sort it, but I can't remember when we last had a rough midas setting.
This is just part of our area, you can see very small squares next to the road, these are VMS settings, they can be anything from the "Don't drink & drive" type campaign messages (These are set by the NTIC down near Birmingham, and are authorised at the start of the year, ie what will be show, where, and for how long. The regional RCC have nothing to do with these.
Also some are the automatic messages i.e. "12 miles to J##. 10 mins" type of messages. these are set but cameras very similar to ANPR ones, they record the last 3 letters of a group of numberplates, time how log most of these take to get to the next point, then put the average time up. (never with a quicker time than 70 mph average) these can be a nuisance, as there can be an RTC between 2 junctions blocking the road to some degree, and it could take some time before that message changes to show the delay. (I personally over-write them with info about the incident)
This snapshot was taken when there was very little traffic on the network, to see the same when it's rush hour, it's lit up like a Christmas tree!
Also you can only see up to just past J27 on the M6, our area goes right up to Gretna Green and the border at Scotland, you need to move the screen around to see that part.
Network with permanent speed restrictions will have a de-restriction sign (round white diagonal black line) roadworks with a speed restriction should also have the nation de-restriction sign, but at least and "END" sign.
Personally, I think those information messages saying "J29 - 10 miles, 10 minutes" etc are brilliant, particularly in heavy traffic as you can better evaluate if to stay on the road or get off. It somehow makes the journey a bit more relaxing as you know the signs are more-or-less correct.
I shall try to answer the points raised.
Mybrainhurts; The 50's & 60's would come up because traffic has slowed, not to make traffic slow (unless they are mandatory, ie have a red circle around them.) This usually happens when there is a busy slip-road with traffic trying to join the motorway.
In area's of managed motorways, I believe that all gantries have speed cameras on, but are only active when the mandatory speeds are lit up(not confirming as we don't have any MM yet)
thecremeegg; Same as above, midas has triggered because there is queueing traffic.
Cunnin Punt: I can't answer for other regions, but I fairly certain that motorcycle emergency responders (police or Ambo) are not used on the motorways in our region, they may use the motorway to get from A to B, and stop with anything major that they see (just as you or I would) but are not deployed to motorway incidents, (H&S)
Your question 1)
All traffic density information on these maps comes from the overhead cameras, They're usually blue one fixed on bridges over the lanes. You'll also see them on blue poles at the side of major trunk roads. The HA have nothing to do with these.
Question 2)
Yes, once the location is tied down to a specific marker-post, then the signals should be trimmed so that only that area is then left with signals, but you certainly need to be confident that the information is correct.
Baldy1926; Unless we've been told about it, or it just happens to be on one of the camera views presently on show, we don't know that a guy is chasing the hound of the Baskervilles up the H/S. (Did you ring it in? or leave it to someone else to do?)
Atrevetetete; As I've already said about these, there must have been some delay, but until it resets itself it can be "out" I personally am not a fan of these, but in questionnaires carried out, the majority of the general public do like them.
Funkateer; All camera partnerships use these types of statistics to put cameras where-ever they believe necessary, not just motorways. more often ANPR cameras are used.
If you use Twitter, go and follow NWMPG (North West Motorway Police) you'll see how active the police are in our region.
Elroy Blue; you are so right on all points!
Locations given by the general public can be so way out, junctions out, direction incorrect, we've even been given the wrong motorway more than a few times. Some of the 999 call takers who are not motorway knowledgeable, don't help, with "Highway disruption, M65" being the total information and location about an incident, luckily though they always put the informers tel number on the log, so we recall them and the the correct info.
ref getting emergency crews through stopped traffic on MM, yes it's certainly a problem, I have my ideas but they're not for the internet.
Mybrainhurts; The 50's & 60's would come up because traffic has slowed, not to make traffic slow (unless they are mandatory, ie have a red circle around them.) This usually happens when there is a busy slip-road with traffic trying to join the motorway.
In area's of managed motorways, I believe that all gantries have speed cameras on, but are only active when the mandatory speeds are lit up(not confirming as we don't have any MM yet)
thecremeegg; Same as above, midas has triggered because there is queueing traffic.
Cunnin Punt: I can't answer for other regions, but I fairly certain that motorcycle emergency responders (police or Ambo) are not used on the motorways in our region, they may use the motorway to get from A to B, and stop with anything major that they see (just as you or I would) but are not deployed to motorway incidents, (H&S)
Your question 1)
All traffic density information on these maps comes from the overhead cameras, They're usually blue one fixed on bridges over the lanes. You'll also see them on blue poles at the side of major trunk roads. The HA have nothing to do with these.
Question 2)
Yes, once the location is tied down to a specific marker-post, then the signals should be trimmed so that only that area is then left with signals, but you certainly need to be confident that the information is correct.
Baldy1926; Unless we've been told about it, or it just happens to be on one of the camera views presently on show, we don't know that a guy is chasing the hound of the Baskervilles up the H/S. (Did you ring it in? or leave it to someone else to do?)
Atrevetetete; As I've already said about these, there must have been some delay, but until it resets itself it can be "out" I personally am not a fan of these, but in questionnaires carried out, the majority of the general public do like them.
Funkateer; All camera partnerships use these types of statistics to put cameras where-ever they believe necessary, not just motorways. more often ANPR cameras are used.
If you use Twitter, go and follow NWMPG (North West Motorway Police) you'll see how active the police are in our region.
Elroy Blue; you are so right on all points!
Locations given by the general public can be so way out, junctions out, direction incorrect, we've even been given the wrong motorway more than a few times. Some of the 999 call takers who are not motorway knowledgeable, don't help, with "Highway disruption, M65" being the total information and location about an incident, luckily though they always put the informers tel number on the log, so we recall them and the the correct info.
ref getting emergency crews through stopped traffic on MM, yes it's certainly a problem, I have my ideas but they're not for the internet.
Like many others, I spend a large part of my time on the motorways.
I've seen 'Fog' signs up when it's 100% visability, 'Queue caution' when there is the lightest of traffic and no queue, 'Incident' when there is no incident. Etc etc.
Surely the people on the other end of the camera can clearly see that there is no queue, fog or incident?? And if not, they need their eyes testing.
At first, I would acknowledge these signs. But now, after years on the road, I ignore them, but up my wits just incase there is an issue.
The more false signs that go up, the less people read them.
I can't see the point in them. Do people really need informing that they are sitting in a queue and that they have to do 40mph? I think they know this!
The only signs that are usefull is the 'Juntion 9-10 slow moving traffic'. But even then they are poitnless as most of the time the traffic is actually slow between junction 5-10.
Edit...just read GafferJim's post. Makes sense to some of the above.
I've seen 'Fog' signs up when it's 100% visability, 'Queue caution' when there is the lightest of traffic and no queue, 'Incident' when there is no incident. Etc etc.
Surely the people on the other end of the camera can clearly see that there is no queue, fog or incident?? And if not, they need their eyes testing.
At first, I would acknowledge these signs. But now, after years on the road, I ignore them, but up my wits just incase there is an issue.
The more false signs that go up, the less people read them.
I can't see the point in them. Do people really need informing that they are sitting in a queue and that they have to do 40mph? I think they know this!
The only signs that are usefull is the 'Juntion 9-10 slow moving traffic'. But even then they are poitnless as most of the time the traffic is actually slow between junction 5-10.
Edit...just read GafferJim's post. Makes sense to some of the above.
Edited by Lawbags on Thursday 5th September 09:08
Edited by Lawbags on Thursday 5th September 09:09
Just to inform everyone about marker-posts. All the numbers on these tell us where you are, down to 100 yds. they're as good as the number on your front door. Quoting a marker-post (And make sure the call taker gets it!) will make it so that signals are only set just for the location of the incident, and not for miles between junctions.
This type of marker-posts are every ½km, and can be seen by drivers whilst still moving, including emergency crews looking for a particular location. If you look a little closure, you can see the smaller marker-post with the same number on, these are every 100yds along the H/S. You will also see a sticker on the side showing you which way to walk to the nearest SOS box.
This is an old type SOS box, the numbers on this will correspond with the marker-post location as well.
This is inside one of the newer type SOS boxes, they are free to use, and connect straight to our control rooms, so the operator that answers the call, will get all relevant information and if signals are required they'll be set just in the correct location, emergency services are called for at the flick of a button etc.
If you have difficulty hearing the operator, there is a green button on the telephone consul, press that 3 times will increase the volume to the handset.
This type of marker-posts are every ½km, and can be seen by drivers whilst still moving, including emergency crews looking for a particular location. If you look a little closure, you can see the smaller marker-post with the same number on, these are every 100yds along the H/S. You will also see a sticker on the side showing you which way to walk to the nearest SOS box.
This is an old type SOS box, the numbers on this will correspond with the marker-post location as well.
This is inside one of the newer type SOS boxes, they are free to use, and connect straight to our control rooms, so the operator that answers the call, will get all relevant information and if signals are required they'll be set just in the correct location, emergency services are called for at the flick of a button etc.
If you have difficulty hearing the operator, there is a green button on the telephone consul, press that 3 times will increase the volume to the handset.
Gafferjim, you talk about reporting stuff - who in your opinion should we (let's assume a passenger) ring if we see something dangerous? How about something obvious like a pedestrian on the motorway, and then also something more subtle like a car stopped on the H/S at the very edge of the carriageway?
Without reading all the thread - I've seen these signs a few times now, I slow right down. I have no desire to splatter anyone stupid enough to be trying to cross a motorway. And it may even be that officers are trying to recover debris etc. I can spare 10 mins of my time to slow down and be on the safe side.
otolith said:
Gafferjim said:
How many times do I have to tell you? if we get a report on ANYTHING that is, or could be "live lane" then signals have to be set. There is a procedure as to what is set;
Unless reported by HATO, Police, HA contractor or seen on cctv, then only 50's can be set (& usually "INCIDENT" but there are a couple of exceptions) even if the report says that there's a multiple RTC blocking the whole c/way. If there are a number of calls saying the same thing, in the same location, then signals can be reduced to 30's for a maximum of 2 signals prior the location (if confident about it) Once confirmation is made by any of the above (police, HATO, CCTV, HA Contractor ) then relevant lane closure can be set.
We have to set signals that cover the location given, If it's vaugue, then signals are spread, if a markerpost is known, then signals are localised.
SIGNALS CAN ONLY BE CHANGED OR CLEARED WITH THE AUTHORISATION OF THE HATO / POLICE PATROL AT SCENE, OR ONCE A SEARCH HAS BEEN MADE AND "NO TRACE" CONFIRMED.
IT DOESN'T MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE WHETHER IT IS YOUR FAULT OR NOT, THE SYSTEM IS STILL CRAP.Unless reported by HATO, Police, HA contractor or seen on cctv, then only 50's can be set (& usually "INCIDENT" but there are a couple of exceptions) even if the report says that there's a multiple RTC blocking the whole c/way. If there are a number of calls saying the same thing, in the same location, then signals can be reduced to 30's for a maximum of 2 signals prior the location (if confident about it) Once confirmation is made by any of the above (police, HATO, CCTV, HA Contractor ) then relevant lane closure can be set.
We have to set signals that cover the location given, If it's vaugue, then signals are spread, if a markerpost is known, then signals are localised.
SIGNALS CAN ONLY BE CHANGED OR CLEARED WITH THE AUTHORISATION OF THE HATO / POLICE PATROL AT SCENE, OR ONCE A SEARCH HAS BEEN MADE AND "NO TRACE" CONFIRMED.
Which given your approach to this thread is probably true anyway.
Gafferjim said:
y2blade said:
These signs are a real pet hate of mine.
I wish the lazy fkers that do this job would put something useful on the signs if they can't be bothered to update them regularly 
"Keep left unless overtaking" would be a start.
They do from time to time, driver like you ignore them.I wish the lazy f
kers that do this job would put something useful on the signs if they can't be bothered to update them regularly "Keep left unless overtaking" would be a start.
They also set "Don't drink & drive" but we still get plenty over the limit, or causing RTC's due to being over.
They set "check your fuel" but you wouldn't believe how many people run out of fuel.
It's not the signs that are wrong, it's the general motorists that need to switch their brains on
Anyone walking in the lanes or on the hard shoulder of a motorway is a cretin and deserves to be removed from the gene pool. In fact, there are plenty of equally deserving morons in society and on the roads in general, so I would propose a mass cull...
Having said that, I've never seen a temporary speed limit posted for that reason, and I tend to obey them as it's usually not obvious what the reason for them is. They just exist.
Having said that, I've never seen a temporary speed limit posted for that reason, and I tend to obey them as it's usually not obvious what the reason for them is. They just exist.
trashbat said:
Gafferjim, you talk about reporting stuff - who in your opinion should we (let's assume a passenger) ring if we see something dangerous? How about something obvious like a pedestrian on the motorway, and then also something more subtle like a car stopped on the H/S at the very edge of the carriageway?
First of all, don't put yourself in danger. There are obviously 2 main ways of reporting things, by the SOS box, or by 999. each one has it's pro's and cons, I'll try to list them.999 via a mobile: You need to be sure of the location, including direction, and motorway, you need to be sure just what you've seen. when you get through to the mobile operator (who could be anywhere in the country, or even out of the country) they will put you through to the service for the area they think that you're in (nearest mobile mast) this is not always correct and it could be near force boundaries. Once you get through to say the police operator, they will take the details that you give - full stop- a large percentage of 999 call takers are not motorway knowledgeable, so may not know that they've missed important information that they could have asked you. They produce a police log with the information that you give, this is then electronically sent to the police motorway desk, they in turn electronically send it to the HA control room, we then will immediately set signals to the information passed if required. We then start to look through the CCTV cameras to see if wee can see the incident from the location description, meanwhile any other emergency service that might be required will be called (hot-key direct lines) unless the police have noted on the log that they've already done it.
By the emergency SOS box: you go straight through to a HA control room, the SOS phone number comes up on the system (but you will be asked to confirm it)so they know where YOU are, the operator knows exactly what information is required and will ask you the relevant questions, they will make a log on the system which is passed electronically straight to the Motorway Police controllers (who decide if a police response is required) as that operator is setting the signals, others will be deploying HATO, calling any other emergency service, and looking for the incident on CCTV.
If the incident is found on CCTV, then a number of things happen, all the emergency services get informed of the marker-post location, direction, and best way to approach the incident (think about it being under a junction) The signals are adjusted to suite, ie if lane closures are needed, lower speeds, the VMS is changed from "INCIDENT" to possibly "ACCIDENT" signals after the location are cleared, if there are too many signals before the incident, these are trimmed.
For me, information via the SOS box is far superior to anything called from a mobile, but some people are very frightened of being on the H/S, it is not the safest place in the world, and if you do stop on the H/S, stay well over to the left, don't forget to put the hazards on, keep one eye on the oncoming traffic all the time.
Also note that should you breakdown, if you call on the SOS box, once we confirm that your vehicle is not in a live running lane we will contact your recovery for you, call the wife to tell them you'll be late etc. if you don't have a mobile. we can also give your recovery the correct location for you, and as they are aware that we know of you predicament, they tend not to drag their feet in attending.
oyster said:
System seems fine to me. Unless your time is more important than someone else's (or your own) life?
Which given your approach to this thread is probably true anyway.
Just for clarity, this is NOT WHAT I AM SAYING:Which given your approach to this thread is probably true anyway.
"I am annoyed that the information on the signs causes me to slow down when I don't need to"
OK. Got that?
What I originally said was;
otolith said:
The problem with motorway matrix warnings is that they cry wolf more than half the time.
Now, perhaps I was wrong to assume that the cultural reference was universal enough that it would be understood, but since it clearly isn't, let me remind you;Aesop's Fables said:
There was once a young Shepherd Boy who tended his sheep at the foot of a mountain near a dark forest. It was rather lonely for him all day, so he thought upon a plan by which he could get a little company and some excitement. He rushed down towards the village calling out “Wolf, Wolf,” and the villagers came out to meet him, and some of them stopped with him for a considerable time. This pleased the boy so much that a few days afterwards he tried the same trick, and again the villagers came to his help. But shortly after this a Wolf actually did come out from the forest, and began to worry the sheep, and the boy of course cried out “Wolf, Wolf,” still louder than before. But this time the villagers, who had been fooled twice before, thought the boy was again deceiving them, and nobody stirred to come to his help. So the Wolf made a good meal off the boy’s flock, and when the boy complained, the wise man of the village said:
“A liar will not be believed, even when he speaks the truth.”
So, the reason I would like the signs not to "cry wolf" is that they will be more effective in making people react correctly to them. It was a comment on the effectiveness of the system and on human nature, not a self-interested whinge or an attack on GafferJim's colleagues.“A liar will not be believed, even when he speaks the truth.”
I wish people on PH wouldn't assume that everyone is as self-centred as they are.
Try this out guys. http://www.trafficengland.com/map.aspx
It should come up with a map of England's motorway network. switch on the various items, cameras, signs etc.
click on the toolbar buttons for "alerts" and "motorway traffic flow" enter where you want to look at, and see just what is going on.
It should come up with a map of England's motorway network. switch on the various items, cameras, signs etc.
click on the toolbar buttons for "alerts" and "motorway traffic flow" enter where you want to look at, and see just what is going on.
Gafferjim said:
First of all, don't put yourself in danger. There are obviously 2 main ways of reporting things, by the SOS box, or by 999. each one has it's pro's and cons, I'll try to list them.
999 via a mobile: You need to be sure of the location, including direction, and motorway, you need to be sure just what you've seen. when you get through to the mobile operator (who could be anywhere in the country, or even out of the country) they will put you through to the service for the area they think that you're in (nearest mobile mast) this is not always correct and it could be near force boundaries. Once you get through to say the police operator, they will take the details that you give - full stop- a large percentage of 999 call takers are not motorway knowledgeable, so may not know that they've missed important information that they could have asked you. They produce a police log with the information that you give, this is then electronically sent to the police motorway desk, they in turn electronically send it to the HA control room, we then will immediately set signals to the information passed if required. We then start to look through the CCTV cameras to see if wee can see the incident from the location description, meanwhile any other emergency service that might be required will be called (hot-key direct lines) unless the police have noted on the log that they've already done it.
I'm thinking of this from a passerby perspective, rather than having broken down or stopped myself. The above is certainly relevant to that.999 via a mobile: You need to be sure of the location, including direction, and motorway, you need to be sure just what you've seen. when you get through to the mobile operator (who could be anywhere in the country, or even out of the country) they will put you through to the service for the area they think that you're in (nearest mobile mast) this is not always correct and it could be near force boundaries. Once you get through to say the police operator, they will take the details that you give - full stop- a large percentage of 999 call takers are not motorway knowledgeable, so may not know that they've missed important information that they could have asked you. They produce a police log with the information that you give, this is then electronically sent to the police motorway desk, they in turn electronically send it to the HA control room, we then will immediately set signals to the information passed if required. We then start to look through the CCTV cameras to see if wee can see the incident from the location description, meanwhile any other emergency service that might be required will be called (hot-key direct lines) unless the police have noted on the log that they've already done it.
For less life threatening but concerning incidents, do calls to the non-emergency 101 produce incidents that get to you? Alternatively, do the Highways Agency have a public facing call centre that's relevant here?
I ask because I've often seen things that I think are dangerous, but probably not worth a 999 call.
y2blade said:
Gafferjim said:
y2blade said:
These signs are a real pet hate of mine.
I wish the lazy fkers that do this job would put something useful on the signs if they can't be bothered to update them regularly
"Keep left unless overtaking" would be a start.
They do from time to time, driver like you ignore them.I wish the lazy f
kers that do this job would put something useful on the signs if they can't be bothered to update them regularly "Keep left unless overtaking" would be a start.
They also set "Don't drink & drive" but we still get plenty over the limit, or causing RTC's due to being over.
They set "check your fuel" but you wouldn't believe how many people run out of fuel.
It's not the signs that are wrong, it's the general motorists that need to switch their brains on
kers. Reads to me as Jim using similar reasoning to assume that you ignore the VMS.
The "cry wolf" is not a problem with the system / signals, it's usually down to 2 things.
The location is very sketchy so signals are set over a distance. This is certainly a problem, if you guys now know how to report things better than before, and spread to word, then maybe we can reduce long distance signals.
The other thing is, whilst there was a problem when it was called in, that problem has cleared, but the signals cannot be cleared until a search confirms "no trace"
incidents like; Tarpaulin blowing about.
Children playing chicken.
Drunken pedestrian. (we had one recently, every-time he saw a patrol car, he dived into the undergrowth. 5 times we & the police went looking for him, but he did eventually disappear.
Car broke down in live lane, has been pushed to H/S by the time patrol arrives.
Debris in c/way. hit by veh's and flicked out of c/way, blown away, collected by the driver.
Animals that disappear.
but most of all the wrong location given, or no direction given so sigs have to be set on both c/ways.
VMS with "INCIDENT" is normally unconfirmed, these get changed to some more relevant once confirmed. Except "ONCOMING VEH" "PEDESTRIANS" & "ANIMALS"
The location is very sketchy so signals are set over a distance. This is certainly a problem, if you guys now know how to report things better than before, and spread to word, then maybe we can reduce long distance signals.
The other thing is, whilst there was a problem when it was called in, that problem has cleared, but the signals cannot be cleared until a search confirms "no trace"
incidents like; Tarpaulin blowing about.
Children playing chicken.
Drunken pedestrian. (we had one recently, every-time he saw a patrol car, he dived into the undergrowth. 5 times we & the police went looking for him, but he did eventually disappear.
Car broke down in live lane, has been pushed to H/S by the time patrol arrives.
Debris in c/way. hit by veh's and flicked out of c/way, blown away, collected by the driver.
Animals that disappear.
but most of all the wrong location given, or no direction given so sigs have to be set on both c/ways.
VMS with "INCIDENT" is normally unconfirmed, these get changed to some more relevant once confirmed. Except "ONCOMING VEH" "PEDESTRIANS" & "ANIMALS"
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