M25. Is there any point in it anymore?
Discussion
leafspring said:
The other problem as far as I can tell the M25 is the only motorway route out of Kent and all of the South East if your heading North.
Totally agree. I regularly drive from blackburn to Maidstone and back, and the m25 is unavoidable. Usually go anti clockwise on the way down avoiding dartford toll (dosent seem much quicker)leafspring said:
The other problem as far as I can tell the M25 is the only motorway route out of Kent and all of the South East if your heading North.
Totally agree. I regularly drive from blackburn to Maidstone and back, and the m25 is unavoidable,on a thursday afternoon around 3pm heading north, ive found that I usually get near the m25 at dartford, and travel anticlockwise.The last few times ive done that, traffic is a nightmare, so usually come off at south mimms and join the a1 to freedom
skyrover said:
what the M25 looks like
what the M25 SHOULD look like
For a large capacity motorway you need collector lanes and express lanes
Bit of a different design though - city freeways in america have lots of junctions and are designed to take local traffic off the streets, while motorways are designed for long distance traffic and discourage local traffic.what the M25 SHOULD look like
For a large capacity motorway you need collector lanes and express lanes
And they still jam up like crazy in the rush hour (hence the popularity of HOV lanes to allow people to avoid queues).
Having seen 4-5 lanes of traffic at a virtual standstill for some 40 odd miles queuing out of oakland down I-580 I'm not sure the Americans have traffic problems solved any more than we do...
Atrevetetete said:
Life without the M25 would be hell. I had to take someone to London yesterday and a 3 hour return journey took nearly 7 1/2 hours. I've never had much more than slowing for a few miles on the M25.
I've had much worse than a slow few miles on the M25, and I don't even live in the south east. The last time I used it I queued for over an hour then had to pull off because I was low on petrol (and there are so few services leaving is the only option). I had travelled approximately 5 miles in that hour.Edited by Flibble on Sunday 8th September 12:08
DonkeyApple said:
What is really needed is a few link motorways between the key spoke motorways a set distance out from the M25.
An awful lot of the traffic is not London centric but people trying to connect from their local motorway to another.
For example, there is a near motorway link between the M40 and the M4 by Marlow and this simple stretch of road opens a lot of options for people.
Obviously these roads already exist but are too low capacity and so people stick with the M25 option instead of dog legging over further out.
when you look at the 'low(er) status' but vital to regional and national economy roads such as:An awful lot of the traffic is not London centric but people trying to connect from their local motorway to another.
For example, there is a near motorway link between the M40 and the M4 by Marlow and this simple stretch of road opens a lot of options for people.
Obviously these roads already exist but are too low capacity and so people stick with the M25 option instead of dog legging over further out.
M62
A50 M1 - derby - Staffs
A14
A46 from Leicester to Lincoln ( which is (one of) the 'middle' M1 - A1 link as well now the dualling is 'completed' ( bar the Newark bypass )
from an agricultural / food production point of view the A52 and A17 are also important links although they don't necessarily link the high status spoke roads ( ok technically the A52 does to a point )
Edited by mph1977 on Sunday 8th September 13:05
If they widen the M25 then those of us who currently avoid it at peak times would start using it again, so the extra capacity will soon get used up. I've spent many an hour on the M25, most times it's ok, when it's running at or near full capacity it's ok, but when it get's too busy or there's an incident it's a nightmare. Keep off it on Monday mornings, Friday afternoons, anytime between 7.30-9.00 and 16.30-19.00 and you should be ok, unfortunately you need a fully functioning crystal ball to predict incidents.
Engineer1 said:
The motorway network could do with high level carriageways that run over the normal carriageways, in my mind running one between junction 11 or 10 till just after 8 on the M6 bypassing local traffic and meaning issues on the M5 don't screw up the M6
Given adequate funds I would agree. But the cost of high level carriageways would surely be prohibitive in the UK? Who would pay? The motorist or the taxpayer? Toll roads have been clearly shown to be wholly ineffective at redirecting travelers as evidenced by the M6 toll road fiasco soon to be nationalised because the M6 toll road cannot earn sufficient to repay its debts with the existing use levels.vikingaero said:
Before the M25 it used to take us 2-3 hours of driving through Central London to reach Heathrow. Now it can take as little as 1 hour from Kent.
I think the problem is that there are too many junctions. Motorways seem to be an overflow for local roads when they should be about high speed transit over long distances.
Indeed it is. I can do m20 j5 to Heathrow/m4 junction in 55 minutes on a clear run. You just have to choose your time I.e after 7.30 pm. I think the problem is that there are too many junctions. Motorways seem to be an overflow for local roads when they should be about high speed transit over long distances.
roadend1981 said:
leafspring said:
The other problem as far as I can tell the M25 is the only motorway route out of Kent and all of the South East if your heading North.
Totally agree. I regularly drive from blackburn to Maidstone and back, and the m25 is unavoidable,on a thursday afternoon around 3pm heading north, ive found that I usually get near the m25 at dartford, and travel anticlockwise.The last few times ive done that, traffic is a nightmare, so usually come off at south mimms and join the a1 to freedom
richwig83 said:
DonkeyApple said:
80bn is the estimate.
It would be smarter to find the point in Britain where non stop fast rail can get from all major English cities in under an hour and build the equivalent of Canary Wharf. An entirely new working city where the big firms can locate and draw labour from outside the SE without that labour needing to physically migrate as it currently does.
The other end of each city line then terminates at a massive car park where existing rail links can meet but primarily it is for people with cars who live around the city rather than in it.
It's the only way to start making England less London centric.
How??It would be smarter to find the point in Britain where non stop fast rail can get from all major English cities in under an hour and build the equivalent of Canary Wharf. An entirely new working city where the big firms can locate and draw labour from outside the SE without that labour needing to physically migrate as it currently does.
The other end of each city line then terminates at a massive car park where existing rail links can meet but primarily it is for people with cars who live around the city rather than in it.
It's the only way to start making England less London centric.
The reason why the SE is more crowded is not because it breeds quicker (quite the opposite) but because of economic migration.
London rents are over £50 because it's currently easier and cheaper to retain middle office functions in the SE.
DonkeyApple said:
richwig83 said:
DonkeyApple said:
80bn is the estimate.
It would be smarter to find the point in Britain where non stop fast rail can get from all major English cities in under an hour and build the equivalent of Canary Wharf. An entirely new working city where the big firms can locate and draw labour from outside the SE without that labour needing to physically migrate as it currently does.
The other end of each city line then terminates at a massive car park where existing rail links can meet but primarily it is for people with cars who live around the city rather than in it.
It's the only way to start making England less London centric.
How??It would be smarter to find the point in Britain where non stop fast rail can get from all major English cities in under an hour and build the equivalent of Canary Wharf. An entirely new working city where the big firms can locate and draw labour from outside the SE without that labour needing to physically migrate as it currently does.
The other end of each city line then terminates at a massive car park where existing rail links can meet but primarily it is for people with cars who live around the city rather than in it.
It's the only way to start making England less London centric.
The reason why the SE is more crowded is not because it breeds quicker (quite the opposite) but because of economic migration.
London rents are over £50 because it's currently easier and cheaper to retain middle office functions in the SE.
Cheib said:
The M25 is one of the reasons I don't want to move to Kent. We're moving out of London in two or three years and will probably move to Bucks....plenty of people I know have moved to Kent....the thought of driving half way round the M25 when I have been anywhere else in the country puts me right off!
Exactly, I had a supplier that lived and was based in Tenterden, lovely, lovely part of the world but you cannot get out of there without using the m25. mybrainhurts said:
Why does the M25 have more Middle Lane Cruisers than your average motorway?
That I do not know but it certainly does. Doubtless a number of socio/academic researchers have waxed lyrical about the "phenomena" at some length. You are correct it does and I have no idea why. Possibly the circuitous nature of a Ringway? I await suggestions more considered than mine.IMO, the major problem is that there are too many junctions. Had they been restricted to only motorway, or, at a stretch, major A roads, such as the A3 & A1, then the M25 would have served its purpose.
However, the fools built far too many junctions and so the road attracts local traffic, which pops on and pootles along for a junction or two, getting in the way of the through traffic.
I live near the Potters Bar junction. A couple of miles along from Enfield and the A10 in one direction and a couple of miles from Barnet and the A1 exit in the other.
Potters Bar is a pointless junction. All that it does is funnel unwanted traffic onto the motorway. If I, as a local, wish to join the M25, I could easily just head for the A10 or A1 interchanges. Multiply this by the number of other superfluous junctions and the problem becomes clear.
However, the fools built far too many junctions and so the road attracts local traffic, which pops on and pootles along for a junction or two, getting in the way of the through traffic.
I live near the Potters Bar junction. A couple of miles along from Enfield and the A10 in one direction and a couple of miles from Barnet and the A1 exit in the other.
Potters Bar is a pointless junction. All that it does is funnel unwanted traffic onto the motorway. If I, as a local, wish to join the M25, I could easily just head for the A10 or A1 interchanges. Multiply this by the number of other superfluous junctions and the problem becomes clear.
^^ that makes sense^^ - but then surely you'd have the local, more minor, roads even more congested as everyone would have to use the same route as each other to join at a major junction?
I'm not saying I'm right - I'm just presenting what I see as a flaw to your idea so I can be educated in case I've missed something obvious!!
I'm not saying I'm right - I'm just presenting what I see as a flaw to your idea so I can be educated in case I've missed something obvious!!
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