RE: Sub-seven and why it matters: PH Blog
Wednesday 11th September 2013
The topic of 'ring laps is one we've discussed a lot on PH and always sure to get a debate going. I'll put my cards on the table; I think it is a pretty good measure of a car and more relevant to its all-round performance than any straight-line acceleration or VMAX figure because it's as much about handling as it is impressive power outputs.
Hatz tells Walter: "Just don't bin it, right?"And though I don't try to get sucked into hitting every press conference at motor shows I was glad I was at Porsche's when the 918 Spyder's 6min 57sec time was announced, if only to witness the genuine gasp of excitement it provoked.
Walliser: "If we just chop this much out of the video..."The story of bagging the lap - which happened only last Wednesday - is worth hearing too, Walliser explaining that after the 7min 14sec the car did last year they were confident of a good time but not taking anything for granted. Bosses said go for it but stay safe, Wolfgang Hatz instructing that the cars were to come back intact.
Love it or hate it, it's done the numbersNext morning the team had 40 minutes, two cars, two drivers (Lieb and Timo Kluck) and a tight schedule. Drivers swapped between cars and the lap times came in, first a 7:01, then a seven dead, then 6:59 and then, with Lieb in the Martini car, the 6:57. And finally a sense of release. "Until that point we were just nodding and saying 'uh huh', noting down the times," said Frank. "But after that it was cheering and real celebration!"
Sub-seven and why it matters: PH Blog
Why that lap time counts and really matters to the 918 team
Hatz tells Walter: "Just don't bin it, right?"
Later that day we were with the Porsche guys at an after-show do and it's clear where they stand on 'ring lap time and their significance. "This is only what matters, it tests everything," said a clearly very chuffed Dr Frank Walliser, frizzy-haired 918 Spyder project chief. You'll know him from the two videos Chris Harris has done on the car, first with Frank driving and then when Harris got to take the wheel himself. Indeed, off the back of that Frank has found himself recognised in the street when out with the car, not something development engineers are necessarily used to.
Walliser: "If we just chop this much out of the video..."
First indication came when Marc Lieb arrived direct from a flight back from a WEC round at Brazil, late and after a frantic drive from Stuttgart airport. Helmet and suit on he jumped in the car and did a 7min 7sec, said "I'm good, see you tomorrow..." and that was that. Not bad for a sighting lap.
Then Walter Rohrl, ostensibly the voice of wisdom and restraint, went out. Frank relates that he came back nonplussed, saying the tyres were off, the brakes weren't too his liking and the rest. "And we said, Walter, you did a 7:04! He said 'not bad for an old guy' and he was smiling for the rest of the evening because he had gone faster than the young guys!" recalls Frank.
Love it or hate it, it's done the numbers
And what of McLaren, whose nose must now be pretty out of joint? Walliser pointed out that the 918's four-wheel drive traction is an advantage that offsets the power deficit over the P1 and though diplomatic couldn't hide his delight at bagging the first sub-seven lap in this new hybrid hypercar age.
As for the Carrera GT the project chief of that car, and technical manager of the 918 Spyder, told us tyre technology has moved on a long way in the last decade and accounts for as much as half of its 30-second or so lag over its successor.
Overall though there's just a huge sense of vindication from the 918 team. And whatever you think of electrically assisted supercars a feeling they've proved it can work.
Dan
Discussion
Impressive, but despite the articles claims, such laps are still pretty pointless as at these speeds it's more about racing levels of aero aids & design, trick tyres (???) and a vehicle setup unlikely to be used on the street for the most part.
Very impressive (needed saying twice
) and I do love the fact they do this, but it's not really all that useful as a metric.
Very impressive (needed saying twice
) and I do love the fact they do this, but it's not really all that useful as a metric.300bhp/ton said:
Impressive, but despite the articles claims, such laps are still pretty pointless as at these speeds it's more about racing levels of aero aids & design, trick tyres (???) and a vehicle setup unlikely to be used on the street for the most part.
Very impressive (needed saying twice ) and I do love the fact they do this, but it's not really all that useful as a metric.
Quite agree - I can't remember the last time I came across a corner like the Karussell. You may as well use Dunsfold or any other race track for what it's worth.Very impressive (needed saying twice
) and I do love the fact they do this, but it's not really all that useful as a metric.Monty Python said:
Quite agree - I can't remember the last time I came across a corner like the Karussell. You may as well use Dunsfold or any other race track for what it's worth.
The whole point of the Nordschleife, and why the manufacturers test there (other than the BS), is because is has almost every type of straight, bend, crest, camber, etc. Of course even London doesn't have pot-holes the size of the Karussell - but each part of the track represents a real world challenge. It's not perfect as a real-world test, of course not, but it is better than testing at Silverstone, or Dunsfold - it's also better than quoting 0-60 and Vmax (though of course those are interesting numbers too). Suspensions settings for the NS are more like the real world than for Silverstone, Dunsfold, Nardo, etc.The NS time is not the be all and end all (what test could be), IMHO, but it is a more interesting number for a sports car than most of the other numbers I hear.
Also, for those who have driven there, it has an extra significance - even though none of us could approach those actual times.
300bhp/ton said:
Impressive, but despite the articles claims, such laps are still pretty pointless as at these speeds it's more about racing levels of aero aids & design, trick tyres (???) and a vehicle setup unlikely to be used on the street for the most part
But this is the same with 0-60, 0-125, VMax, everything really. A benchmark of a *real* production spec road car at the nurburgring is just as much use as any of the others.Joe911 said:
It's not perfect as a real-world test, of course not, but it is better than testing at Silverstone, or Dunsfold - it's also better than quoting 0-60 and Vmax (though of course those are interesting numbers too). Suspensions settings for the NS are more like the real world than for Silverstone, Dunsfold, Nardo, etc.
I think that's what it comes down to, and the reason for the constant reference to 'ring time.Monty Python said:
Quite agree - I can't remember the last time I came across a corner like the Karussell. You may as well use Dunsfold or any other race track for what it's worth.
I thought the relevance was down to how narrow and bumpy the track is, so more like a B road than a race circuit. They couldn't do a proper time in an F1 car there for example. RadQuinn said:
It looked quick, but it also looked pretty boring and easy if I'm honest. Not that I'd do any better, but he missed a LOT of apexes and it looks like it's under-steering a decent amount at high speeds. Cool that it's under 7 minutes, but otherwise not really exciting..
#I see what you mean about it looking easy, but what qualifies a good car?
Getting round the track smoothly and fast or being a handful and slow, but looking better on youtube?
Strawman said:
I thought the relevance was down to how narrow and bumpy the track is, so more like a B road than a race circuit. They couldn't do a proper time in an F1 car there for example.
They did in the seventies, although I suppose ground clearance could be less these days. The record time is held, by a big margin, by a group C car and the records for track cars obliterate those for street cars, so I'm sure it would be suitable for the vast majority of racing cars if not F1.It still remains the closest thing to thrashing a car down 13 miles of derestricted B road, which is why it's more relevant than a track time. It's not the be-all-and-end-all but no single measure ever would be.
nonuts said:
300bhp/ton said:
Impressive, but despite the articles claims, such laps are still pretty pointless as at these speeds it's more about racing levels of aero aids & design, trick tyres (???) and a vehicle setup unlikely to be used on the street for the most part
But this is the same with 0-60, 0-125, VMax, everything really. A benchmark of a *real* production spec road car at the nurburgring is just as much use as any of the others.The trouble with "ring times..." is however quite different.
1. There are just way to many variables for it to be consistent and comparable. Even with the same car and the same driver. With 0-60mph there are still many variables, but their overall affect on the result are many times less.
2. The distance of the track. Meaning a vehicle that is only marginally slower over a shorter distance can suddenly seem a lot slower when compared over a distance such as this. e.g. on a 1.2 mile circuit two cars might only be a few tenths apart maybe .5 second, most would likely say they are pretty close.
Now use a track that is 16 miles long and the two cars will be maybe 8 seconds apart.
3. Straights and turns. Tracks with long straights will obviously favour vehicles capable of higher speeds. However when using the metric for "real world" performance, how many parts of the public roads will truly allow massive high speeds?
Turns wise, well all these latest purpose built 'Ring cars will have huge aero aids and design, meaning a lot more down force at speed, thus allowing higher cornering speeds. Trouble is, on a road how often do you get to corner at 120mph just to get the benefit of additional aero downforce?
All metrics are flawed, but the simple acceleration ones and lateral g ones at least offer up more comparable stats.
I too am surprised at how un-spikey that was, mark was taking some proper handfuls of lock and the car was not being baited at all, only once at the end did it give him a wiggle. No doubt that is the fastest way round the NS (you don't want to be worrying about the back end trying to overtake the front round there) but it looked pretty inert from behind my monitor (and no, i don't think i could do any better - just typical armchair punditry)
I'd not be surprised if the McL in particular didn't take some pretty large bites out of that time in the coming months...
And to those bemoaning the lack of relevancy to real life - get real. How do you expect your typical supercar manufacturer to develop their car and to what metric, "the fastest time across the york moors"
these are the fastest cars on the planet, anything above 30% on a real road would be imprisonable, the NS is the closest thing we have to a B road blast. And as the market has dictated (by their buying habits) that they want fast 'n loud, the manufacturers have to develop them somewhere........
I'd not be surprised if the McL in particular didn't take some pretty large bites out of that time in the coming months...
And to those bemoaning the lack of relevancy to real life - get real. How do you expect your typical supercar manufacturer to develop their car and to what metric, "the fastest time across the york moors"
these are the fastest cars on the planet, anything above 30% on a real road would be imprisonable, the NS is the closest thing we have to a B road blast. And as the market has dictated (by their buying habits) that they want fast 'n loud, the manufacturers have to develop them somewhere........
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