RE: Sub-seven and why it matters: PH Blog
Discussion
Debaser said:
The lap times might be a pissing contest, but they are also a good indicator of how capable the car is at going (very) fast along a country road.
Yep, the three second a mile difference in pace between this and a mid sevens car like a GTR when taking every corner of the Nurburgring at the limit of grip and every straight at full throttle all the way to the braking zone will translate into a very noticeable difference in your cross country pace. 
Top speed constrained by the desire not to be thrown in prison. Cornering speed more often constrained by how far you can see than by how many G you can pull. I reckon if you plotted actual cross country speed against Nurburgring time, you'd start to go asymptotic at high 8's.
havoc said:
I'd have to disagree - a typical B-road would undo a lot of cars with very quick N'ring times, mainly because of the rapid lumps/bumps/etc in the road, which in a stiff car mean you have to drive at 8/10ths to allow the suspension to keep up. And I'll vouch for that because I've gone from an (allegedly stiff but actually better than a Golf GTi) DC2 ITR to a (properly stiff, track/'ring-spec) FD2 CTR. And despite being notably quicker and grippier than the DC2 with more immediate steering, I'm no quicker down some of my favourite B-roads as the Civic's suspension can't cope with flat-chat blats. Indeed the (softest of the 3, with the most expensive dampers) NSX is probably better still, if you ignore the width of the car and the slower steering.
So exactly how are all these R35s and 991 GT3s etc. going to cope with a B-road? The answer is they're not...as they're not designed for B-roads - they're too big and too quick - they need a sweeping A-road to start getting interesting. So you come down a class of car, to RS3s, 1Ms, etc. ...and find they're also now too stiff and too quick for B-roads. So you end up with mid-spec hot-hatches, which often don't have the expensive dampers to deal with the stiffer springs and (note!) minimal sidewalls they're now sold with.
So the best current B-road car is probably something like a Twingo 133. Because out of all of the above that's the only car which will feel like you're working it at speeds which won't get you a driving ban.
A car set up to be fast at the Nürburgring will be absolutely at home when going fast along a B road. It might feel uncomfortable to the passengers but that doesn't mean the car isn't coping fine.So exactly how are all these R35s and 991 GT3s etc. going to cope with a B-road? The answer is they're not...as they're not designed for B-roads - they're too big and too quick - they need a sweeping A-road to start getting interesting. So you come down a class of car, to RS3s, 1Ms, etc. ...and find they're also now too stiff and too quick for B-roads. So you end up with mid-spec hot-hatches, which often don't have the expensive dampers to deal with the stiffer springs and (note!) minimal sidewalls they're now sold with.
So the best current B-road car is probably something like a Twingo 133. Because out of all of the above that's the only car which will feel like you're working it at speeds which won't get you a driving ban.
Something like a 911 GT3 will be happy on a B road and on a fast A road. I'm not talking about how likely you are to get banned though, fortunately it's not the manufacturers who have to pick up customers speeding fines.
otolith said:
Yep, the three second a mile difference in pace between this and a mid sevens car like a GTR when taking every corner of the Nurburgring at the limit of grip and every straight at full throttle all the way to the braking zone will translate into a very noticeable difference in your cross country pace.
Top speed constrained by the desire not to be thrown in prison. Cornering speed more often constrained by how far you can see than by how many G you can pull. I reckon if you plotted actual cross country speed against Nurburgring time, you'd start to go asymptotic at high 8's.
I agree with your points, but they don't mean that the car isn't capable of going quickly. Top speed constrained by the desire not to be thrown in prison. Cornering speed more often constrained by how far you can see than by how many G you can pull. I reckon if you plotted actual cross country speed against Nurburgring time, you'd start to go asymptotic at high 8's.
CraigyMc said:
Max_Torque said:
It's worth noting that if we plot "The people that can actually afford a new edge Hypercar" and "The people who are good enough drivers to actually exploit a new edge hypercar" on a Venn diagram, the intersection would be astonishingly small. As the J-Leno video proved...... ;-)
I know he's portly, but that doesn't mean he takes up more space on a venn diagram than anyone else...
Debaser said:
A car set up to be fast at the Nürburgring will be absolutely at home when going fast along a B road. It might feel uncomfortable to the passengers but that doesn't mean the car isn't coping fine.
Something like a 911 GT3 will be happy on a B road and on a fast A road. I'm not talking about how likely you are to get banned though, fortunately it's not the manufacturers who have to pick up customers speeding fines.
I've got to disagree. The GT3 has expensive dampers and is probably a bad example, but most affordable, wieldy cars set-up for the 'ring are IMHO TOO stiff for a twisty, bumpy B-road and the suspension DOES run out of travel at high 2-figure speeds. I've done the 'ring a couple of times, and the tarmac is in good nick and doesn't tend to have the random lumps and bumps that characterise a lot of UK back-roads. It's also sighted more like a fast UK A-road than a twisty B-road...and is a 1-way road which allows a lot more commitment...Something like a 911 GT3 will be happy on a B road and on a fast A road. I'm not talking about how likely you are to get banned though, fortunately it's not the manufacturers who have to pick up customers speeding fines.
Moreover, your point about the passengers also applies to the driver - are you on a road or a rally-stage??? And do you really want a boneshaker/rollercoaster ride just to travel 10mph quicker down said road...when the original VMax is almost certainly quicker than the 'safe'* speed for the road anyway...
* i.e. being able to stop (or almost so) in the distance you can see to be clear.
I know we don't always adhere to it, but it's got to be the main rule to drive by...this summer I've seen lots of horse-riders and cyclists and not all adhere to the Highway Code...more than once rounded a corner to see 2 side-by-side! Only last week I was on a bit of a blat on a familiar road, overtook a cyclist shortly before a blind left-hander, then saw one appear coming the other way...and for some reason (caution, 6th sense, luck) decided to brake hard...just as a t
t in a Mondeo rounded said blind corner in the middle of the road so he could overtake the cyclist! If I'd not braked, we would certainly have hit. (Also, if I'd been driving the Civic (quite bouncy and crashy towards the limit) harder, I believe I wouldn't have had enough purchase on the tarmac due to the stiff suspension and my ABS would have chattered away as the suspension tried to settle down, failing to slow the car much and creating a bigger accident.)
Edit: Had a think about this overnight - there are some B-roads which would fit your definition (e.g. Fosse Way) - smoother, better-sighted etc. So on balance I can see where you're coming from. But some of the more fun B-roads I've driven have been rather less 'refined'...
Edited by havoc on Sunday 15th September 09:18
Whilst I personally favour a bit less power and grip in a road car I'm not sure I agree with the comments about never being able to use all the potential of a car on the road. Sure, in a blind corner your speed is limited by visibility but there are plenty of times when you can see all the way down a road and know full well there's no traffic/bicycles/horses coming up so the limiting factor is your and the car's ability. Of course it depends where you live to some extent...I cut my teeth driving around the wilds of Scotland so maybe I've been spoilt
boxsey said:
....and how good the driver is. The fastest drivers often make it all look a bit easy. 
This +100000How can anyone say its boring and they haven't even driven the thing. If you was sat at the side of him you'd completely s
te yourselfI bet if any of us had the chance to drive the car at even 7/10th's, we'd be absolutely blown away.
Some F1 car laps look boring, but I'd be very surprised if they were
"This is only what matters, it tests everything," said a clearly very chuffed Dr Frank Walliser
No it does not.
It does not test the ride comfort.
It does not test the refinement, or the noise.
It does not test how much fun the driver is having.
etc.
For most vehicles, most drivers would be happy to see an increase in the lap time in order to increase the above.
It is good to know that your potential purchase is in the right ball park, but if I were choosing between 3 cars, there would be many things more important than a few seconds around a track in the hands of a professional driver.
No it does not.
It does not test the ride comfort.
It does not test the refinement, or the noise.
It does not test how much fun the driver is having.
etc.
For most vehicles, most drivers would be happy to see an increase in the lap time in order to increase the above.
It is good to know that your potential purchase is in the right ball park, but if I were choosing between 3 cars, there would be many things more important than a few seconds around a track in the hands of a professional driver.
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