RE: Toyota GT86: PH Carpool

[dapearson]

David1976 said:

Maybe, maybe not. I would be surprised if they get that cheap that quickly. The residual value set by Toyota after 3 years is higher and it is rare for manufacturers to take a risk like that just in case people hand back the keys.

Interesting. If you don't mind me asking, what are they setting the GFV to?

All of the lease deals i've seen for these have been very expensive at around £500 p/m over 2 yrs, plus a grand or two up front. Pretty similar to a C63 AMG...

[kidastu]

oop north said:

Quick question - what's it like out of a t-junction in the wet/damp? Does the LSD make for smooth progress rather than struggling to get going? I remember the MX5 being fine in the wet, though that was of course much weedier (115bhp!). I would definitely get a second set of wheels and have winter tyres, but it is so wet here (Preston area) that dry weather driving ability is almost irrelevant!

Traction is a worry - live on a farm and I often have to go up muddy verges to let by people coming the other way. Not a problem in the Outback of course

I've not had major problems at junctions in the wet so far. It will let go if you floor it at a roundabout in heavy rain but apart from that its fine. Not sure how it would cope on muddy verges on the standard tyres tho.

[David1976]

oop north said:

Quick question - what's it like out of a t-junction in the wet/damp? Does the LSD make for smooth progress rather than struggling to get going? I remember the MX5 being fine in the wet, though that was of course much weedier (115bhp!). I would definitely get a second set of wheels and have winter tyres, but it is so wet here (Preston area) that dry weather driving ability is almost irrelevant!

Traction is a worry - live on a farm and I often have to go up muddy verges to let by people coming the other way. Not a problem in the Outback of course

Funny you should mention this but I have plenty of experience in this situation in wet conditions. Coming into a wet second gear T-junction the other day I dropped to second, turned right, and depressed the throttle no more than 1/4 and the GT86 went slippy/slidey and with the LSD I held a nice slide for about 20 metres. It was easy peasy and I felt like a hero.

The standard tyres, as alluded to in EVO, are not great in the wet conditions you get when it has just started raining and the road surface is greasy, but are perfectly judged for dry conditions.

I also race model cars and have often got out of muddy fields in the GT86 when BMW's have been beached and need a tow. I just turn off the traction control and pull away carefully letting the LSD do the rest.

[kambites]

I would guess something like 13k after 3 years for the bottom of the "normal" market.

[W124]

I remember at an SMMT thing a few years back. There was a silver BRZ there and I watched a very respected motoring journo get out after being gone for quite some time hammering it round the alpine route. He got out laughing, with a huge smile on his face. Looked at me as he gave me the keys, and just said "at last'.

Utterly brilliant cars. Thing is - it doesn't feel slow when you are in it. Unless you are racing somebody it's plenty fast enough. If you track it lot then it might be too slow - I can see that. But, as a road car, in the UK, in 2013. It's perfect. I think EVO have taken against it for editorial reasons myself.

[oop north]

kidastu - thanks, appreciate that - wouldn't be hoofing it off the verge, just being gentle - I had a 530d for 18 months that I would often worry I might never get off the verge with the wheel on the verge spinning and the one on the tarmac doing very little. Am thinking the LSD can only help

re money: Subaru are offering lease at (well, from) £289 + VAT/month I think. Can buy on PCP from Subaru at £299 per month I think. Bottom second hand price for a GT86 seems to be £19k currently, the bottom for BRZ is about £20k though there is one on autotrader at 18k (private sale) - would be very tempted to go for that if (a) it wasn't 200 miles away (b) I wouldn't be stressed getting rid of the outback (c) I had some money at the moment. Don't think I will be buying a brand new one, though discounts around £3k are available from autoebid on BRZ (lower on GT86, oddly)

[David1976]

dapearson said:

Interesting. If you don't mind me asking, what are they setting the GFV to?

All of the lease deals i've seen for these have been very expensive at around £500 p/m over 2 yrs, plus a grand or two up front. Pretty similar to a C63 AMG...

£11,600 completely bog standard. Mine was higher

[oop north]

David1976 - thanks - very helpful, if not dangerous

[P-Jay]

300bhp/ton said:

shalmaneser said:

WTF?

Are you delusional?!

How much will the Toyota be worth in 5 years time? The Mondial is likely to be worth the same or more than it is today.

If the Toyota loses say £5-7k in depreciation, that's a lot of money to fund running a Ferrari.

storminnorman said:

I usually agree with the "buy used instead of new" brigade but really they're not even remotely comparable. Poor form to come on a thread about someone's car and tell them they should have bought a dodgy 20yrold budget Ferrari

Can you point out where I told them anything

McAndy said:

Particularly when they are not in the same price bracket due to running costs.

I have a GT86 on my "possibly in the future" radar and The Whiff agrees.

So how much a month over 5 years would a GT86 cost you in depreciation?

Or... how much is the Mondial going to cost you when your boss calls you in for a chat with HR over your timekeeping and attendance.

"Sorry boss, going to be late today, it's happened again" only washes a few times.

You'd have to be certifiably mental to sake your livelihood on a 20 year old Mondial getting you 90 miles, 5 days a week, without fail.

Badge snobbery aside, the GT is the better car in every single possible quantifiable category. The Mondial may seem cheap at £20k, but if it had another badge on it, it would be worth about 40p

[300bhp/ton]

P-Jay said:

Or... how much is the Mondial going to cost you when your boss calls you in for a chat with HR over your timekeeping and attendance.

"Sorry boss, going to be late today, it's happened again" only washes a few times.

You'd have to be certifiably mental to sake your livelihood on a 20 year old Mondial getting you 90 miles, 5 days a week, without fail.

Badge snobbery aside, the GT is the better car in every single possible quantifiable category. They may seem cheap at £20k, but if it had another badge on it, it would be worth about 40p

Of course, I forgot anything over 5 years old on PH is considered and antique and will fall apart either at the first round about, or the 3rd mile you reach for every journey

[W124]

Sir, your point was valid. But, alas, you picked absolutely the worst possible way of illustrating it. Perhaps you should simply acknowledge this?

[kambites]

If one has to compare it to an old(ish) car, I'd have though a 996 C2 would be the obvious point to start.

[chrisw666]

300bhp/ton said:

P-Jay said:

Or... how much is the Mondial going to cost you when your boss calls you in for a chat with HR over your timekeeping and attendance.

"Sorry boss, going to be late today, it's happened again" only washes a few times.

You'd have to be certifiably mental to sake your livelihood on a 20 year old Mondial getting you 90 miles, 5 days a week, without fail.

Badge snobbery aside, the GT is the better car in every single possible quantifiable category. They may seem cheap at £20k, but if it had another badge on it, it would be worth about 40p

Of course, I forgot anything over 5 years old on PH is considered and antique and will fall apart either at the first round about, or the 3rd mile you reach for every journey

Come on, would you seriously commit to a 45 mile trip to work every day, year round in a Ferrari Mondial? I've ignored getting home but still its a stupidly big risk to take unless you own the company and arriving late/not at all because your highly strung old car built by Italians has thrown a wobbler, and I'm pretty sure that while all cars can (and indeed do) breakdown from time to time the kind of issue you'd get in a 10 year old MX5 or 2 year old GT86 will be more readily fixed than the ones that require sourcing specialist parts for a low volume manufacturers now defunct model.

[chrisw666]

kambites said:

If one has to compare it to an old(ish) car, I'd have though a 996 C2 would be the obvious point to start.

The new for old argument is a silly one anyway, how do cars become used cars? Some on here would cut that first stage out of the loop, luckily the Germans are devising a way to build new cars with worn parts to make them feel used.

[BlimeyCharlie]

dapearson said:

Same here. Autocar reckon they'll be worth about £11k after 3 yrs of depreciation. At that point i'd consider one. 2 yrs warranty remaining too.

Do they? That means £5k on a good day from a dealer then.
Is this along the lines of the "browsing in WHSmith at the Parkers guide" school of valuation?

[P-Jay]

300bhp/ton said:

P-Jay said:

Or... how much is the Mondial going to cost you when your boss calls you in for a chat with HR over your timekeeping and attendance.

"Sorry boss, going to be late today, it's happened again" only washes a few times.

You'd have to be certifiably mental to sake your livelihood on a 20 year old Mondial getting you 90 miles, 5 days a week, without fail.

Badge snobbery aside, the GT is the better car in every single possible quantifiable category. They may seem cheap at £20k, but if it had another badge on it, it would be worth about 40p

Of course, I forgot anything over 5 years old on PH is considered and antique and will fall apart either at the first round about, or the 3rd mile you reach for every journey

Yes age plays a part, but seriously - 25k- 30k miles, in a not-great-when-they-were-new Ferrari? You'd need your head read. Services a year at £500 and £1000 if you need belts, you'll need a few of those a year, tyres are £300 each, it'll do 19mpg and they rust just as badly as any 90's Italian car which means if you take it out on those drizzly February mornings when the gritters have been out you'll need to start replacing the bits that have turned to red dust, that'll be very expensive, if it's financially worthwhile at all.

At the end of it you'll have a dog eared Ferrari model that isn't very popular with an extra 100k miles on the clock, if it makes it there and you really think that's going to be worth more than you paid for it?

[300bhp/ton]

chrisw666 said:

Come on, would you seriously commit to a 45 mile trip to work every day, year round in a Ferrari Mondial? I've ignored getting home but still its a stupidly big risk to take unless you own the company and arriving late/not at all because your highly strung old car built by Italians has thrown a wobbler, and I'm pretty sure that while all cars can (and indeed do) breakdown from time to time the kind of issue you'd get in a 10 year old MX5 or 2 year old GT86 will be more readily fixed than the ones that require sourcing specialist parts for a low volume manufacturers now defunct model.

Maybe not for 90 miles a day no. But I did say that earlier, that it would depend on how many miles you are doing a year. For say 8000 miles a year - yes I would. Maybe even 10,000 miles a year.

I know Ferrari's have a bad rep, but lets face it, that is largely due to the labour charges a Ferrari main dealer will charge and the fact the earlier V12 cars required complex engine removal to perform many simple tasks on. This isn't the case with the Mondial.


The Mondial however is not a complex car and by modern standards almost has no electronics at all. Suspension parts are likely going to be your biggest cost. But normal oil & filter type servicing isn't.

The Mondial also uses Bosche K Jetronic fuel injection, which I believe is German not Italian!!



EDITED:

Also lets not forget many people manage to use cars like a 911 or TVR as dailys all year round. I would place the Mondial in a similar category to these.

[anonymous-user]

300bhp/ton said:

Of course, I forgot anything over 5 years old on PH is considered and antique and will fall apart either at the first round about, or the 3rd mile you reach for every journey

You are talking about a 30 year old Ferrari from an era when electrics were regarded as witchcraft and the people who put them together did so around coffee breaks.

There is a saying, no such thing as a cheap Ferrari. Belt service every 15K miles then a slush fund for ongoing jobs. I would think the average Mondial would need £2-3K a year barring any major issues. Fuel consumption is going to be early 20's and as a daily I am betting the ventilation is st and it really wouldn't like the winter very much, not to mention you would need to spend a fair bit of time keeping salt out of things. I would also assume that a high mileage Mondial is going to be about as tempting as a dose to most buyers.

In short not a daily car, unless you are mad.

[chris182]

W124 said:

Sir, your point was valid. But, alas, you picked absolutely the worst possible way of illustrating it. Perhaps you should simply acknowledge this?

Absolutely, there are many used options that could top the GT86 but that is not one of them. I think they look great and maybe in several years when they are down to £5k or so I might look at getting one.

[speedtwelve]

I'd like a GT86 in the future as a fun daily driver once they have come down in price. More and more appearing on the roads after seeming quite a rare sight in the first year of sale. I do like the styling and usually go "Ooh, a GT86!" when I see one go past. BRZ so much rarer; saw my first on the road only last week.

Read a buying guide on the Mondial recently; independent specialists seemingly charge c. £15k for a full engine rebuild if it goes bang. Entirely comparable to the running costs of an in-warranty Toyota then... At least 300 didn't suggest a Lincoln Continental as a viable alternative.