Australian driver tries to pay parking fine in small change!

[300bhp/ton]

GroundEffect said:

http://www.royalmint.com/aboutus/policies-and-guid...

I thought this was common knowledge?

Guess I'm not common enough

Seriously though, got a question.

That link clearly says "guidelines". It makes no reference to any legislation what so ever. So it is actually law, or simply an unenforceable guideline?

Also that page I think seems to be talking about very specific circumstances, not general use. I say this as it claims this:

"In England and Wales the £5, £10, £20 and £50 notes are legal tender for payment of any amount. However, they are not legal tender in Scotland and Northern Ireland."

Since when has cash notes not been legal tender in Scotland???

The only thing I can think of, is this isn't meaning any money transaction, just:

"It means that a debtor cannot successfully be sued for non-payment if he pays into court in legal tender. "


???

[kambites]

300bhp/ton said:

Since when has cash notes not been legal tender in Scotland???

I'm pretty sure notes have never been legal tender in Scotland. I didn't know about Northern Ireland though.

[300bhp/ton]

kambites said:

300bhp/ton said:

Since when has cash notes not been legal tender in Scotland???

I'm pretty sure notes have never been legal tender in Scotland. I didn't know about Northern Ireland though.

Really?

I've only been to Scotland a couple of times, last time was 7'ish years ago. I bought plenty of beer and the like up there. But I don't recall going to the Bureau De Change first. Or am I am missing something very obvious?

[kambites]

What's that got to do with anything? The currency is still the same.

One and two pound coins are still legal tender there.

[300bhp/ton]

kambites said:

What's that got to do with anything? The currency is still the same.

As I said I'm

How can a £5 note not be legal in Scotland though, that's what I don't get?

[kambites]

300bhp/ton said:

As I said I'm

How can a £5 note not be legal in Scotland though, that's what I don't get?

Of course a five pound note is "legal" there's no law against owning or spending them. They just aren't "legal tender"; all that means that that someone would be within their rights to refuse to take them as payment of a debt.

[TooLateForAName]

Legal tender means that they must be accepted when offered in payment for a debt - eg parking fine.

For purchases, any vendor can reuse to accept anything they like or indeed decline to sell for any reason they like. ie there is no legal obligation to accept even legal tender when offered as payment in a straight transaction. So ps off with your £50 note and penny chew.


If you look at a UK note they are just promissory documents, so no reason why they should be legal tender.

[300bhp/ton]

kambites said:

Of course a five pound note is "legal" there's no law against owning or spending them. They just aren't "legal tender"; all that means that that someone would be within their rights to refuse to take them as payment of a debt.

ok. Although I didn't think that is what CraigyMc was saying. They seemed to be implying that the figures they quoted would be for anything.

Also if you are correct, isn't that Royal-mint page still only referring to court, not in general? And it still doesn't cite any actual legislation.

[kambites]

300bhp/ton said:

ok. Although I didn't think that is what CraigyMc was saying.

That's exactly what he's saying, as he stated at the top of his post he is simply talking about "legal tender" which has no bearing on anything except the settlement of debts.

Also "into court" does not mean the same as "in court". Admittedly I'm not exactly sure what it does mean, but as far as I know it has nothing to do with "court" in the normal meaning.

Edited by kambites on Tuesday 17th September 13:37

[300bhp/ton]

kambites said:

That's exactly what he's saying, as he stated at the top of his post he is simply talking about "legal tender" which has no bearing on anything except the settlement of debts.

My mistake then.

[CraigyMc]

300bhp/ton said:

GroundEffect said:

http://www.royalmint.com/aboutus/policies-and-guid...

I thought this was common knowledge?

Guess I'm not common enough

Seriously though, got a question.

That link clearly says "guidelines". It makes no reference to any legislation what so ever. So it is actually law, or simply an unenforceable guideline?


???

The basis in law is the coinage act 1971, as amended by the 1983 version.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1971/24/sectio...

1971 Coinage act said:

Legal tender.[F1(1)Gold coins shall be legal tender for payment of any amount, but shall not be legal tender if their weight has become less than that specified in Schedule 1 to this Act, or in the proclamation under which they are made, as the least current weight.
(1A)Subject to any provision made by proclamation under section 3 of this Act, coins of cupro-nickel, silver or bronze shall be legal tender as follows—
(a)coins of cupro-nickel or silver of denominations of more than 10 pence, for payment of any amount not exceeding £10;
(b)coins of cupro-nickel or silver of denominations of not more than 10 pence, for payment of any amount not exceeding £5;
(c)coins of bronze, for payment of any amount not exceeding 20 pence.
(1B)Other coins, if made current by a proclamation under section 3 of this Act, shall be legal tender in accordance with the provision made by that proclamation or by any later proclamation made under that section.]
(2)References in [F2subsection (1A)]of this section to coins of any denomination include references to coins treated as being of such a denomination by virtue of a proclamation made in pursuance of section 15(5) of the M1Decimal Currency Act 1969; and silver coins of the Queen’s Maundy money issued before 15th February 1971 shall be treated for the purposes of this section as being denominated in the same number of new pence as the number of pence in which they were denominated.
[F3(3)In this section “coins”means coins made by the Mint in accordance with this Act and not called in by proclamation under section 3 of this Act.]

C

edited to stop stupid quoting

Edited by CraigyMc on Tuesday 17th September 13:44

[Dr Mike Oxgreen]

300bhp/ton said:

And, excuse the pun, but the other side of the coin when using something like a £20 or £50 note to pay for a 70p chocolate bar.

The concept of legal tender is irrelevant when paying for something in a shop. The shopkeeper is quite entitled to refuse the transaction for whatever reason they want (with the exception of objecting to your skin colour, for example).

Legal tender is only relevant when you are settling a debt. When you walk up to a shop counter holding the item you want to buy, that is not a debt because you haven't "taken" the item. You are offering a transaction, and the shopkeeper can refuse the transaction for any lawful reason, including not wanting to accept a £50 note because he can't be bothered to count the change.

Contrast that with paying for a meal in a restaurant after you've eaten. That is a debt, because you have irreversibly eaten the food and can't return it - at least, not in the same form The restaurant is therefore required to accept any legal tender.

[kambites]

I think it's a common mistake to make - a lot of people confused "currency" with "legal tender". You can have currency that's not legal tender and, in theory, legal tender that's not monetary currency (although I don't know if anywhere does the latter).

[Sam1990]

CraigyMc said:

Coins are legal tender throughout the United Kingdom for the following amount:

• £2 - for any amount
• £1 - for any amount
• 50p - for any amount not exceeding £10
• 25p (Crown) - for any amount not exceeding £10
• 20p - for any amount not exceeding £10
• 10p - for any amount not exceeding £5
• 5p - for any amount not exceeding £5
• 2p - for any amount not exceeding 20p
• 1p - for any amount not exceeding 20p

I wonder what the specific rules are in Oz.

C

So are you legally allowed to pay a £60 fine in £10 worth of 50p, £10 worth of 20p etc? and combine the lot into a single payment totalling £60?

Just so I know...

[kambites]

Sam1990 said:

So are you legally allowed to pay a £60 fine in £10 worth of 50p, £10 worth of 20p etc? and combine the lot into a single payment totalling £60?

I'm not certain, but I think the answer to this is "yes". Of course you'd have to pay some of it in pound coins or larger anyway because you'd only get to £30.40 in the smaller denominations unless you can lay your hands on some crowns.

I think the most annoying you could manage would be:

20 x 1p
10 x 2p
100 x 5p
50 x 10p
48 x 20p
20 x 50p
30 x £1


Which I suppose is still nearly 300 coins.

Edited by kambites on Tuesday 17th September 13:46

[CraigyMc]

Sam1990 said:

CraigyMc said:

Coins are legal tender throughout the United Kingdom for the following amount:

• £2 - for any amount
• £1 - for any amount
• 50p - for any amount not exceeding £10
• 25p (Crown) - for any amount not exceeding £10
• 20p - for any amount not exceeding £10
• 10p - for any amount not exceeding £5
• 5p - for any amount not exceeding £5
• 2p - for any amount not exceeding 20p
• 1p - for any amount not exceeding 20p

I wonder what the specific rules are in Oz.

C

So are you legally allowed to pay a £60 fine in £10 worth of 50p, £10 worth of 20p etc? and combine the lot into a single payment totalling £60?

Just so I know...

Not as the law actually reads:
(a)coins of cupro-nickel or silver of denominations of more than 10 pence, for payment of any amount not exceeding £10;
(b)coins of cupro-nickel or silver of denominations of not more than 10 pence, for payment of any amount not exceeding £5;
(c)coins of bronze, for payment of any amount not exceeding 20 pence.

In other words, I think you could part pay £15.20 in coins if you wanted.

C

edited to add: not having a good day with quotes today!

Edited by CraigyMc on Tuesday 17th September 13:46

[kambites]

CraigyMc said:

Not as the law actually reads:
(a)coins of cupro-nickel or silver of denominations of more than 10 pence, for payment of any amount not exceeding £10;
(b)coins of cupro-nickel or silver of denominations of not more than 10 pence, for payment of any amount not exceeding £5;
(c)coins of bronze, for payment of any amount not exceeding 20 pence.

In other words, I think you could part pay £15.20 in coins if you wanted.

C

edited to add: not having a good day with quotes today!

Ah OK, that sounds likely actually. So about 100 coins?

[CraigyMc]

kambites said:

Ah OK, that sounds likely actually. So about 100 coins?

I recon 50x20p + 100x5p + 20x1p, so 170 coins total.

I could be wrong.

C

[kambites]

CraigyMc said:

kambites said:

Ah OK, that sounds likely actually. So about 100 coins?

I recon 50x20p + 100x5p + 20x1p, so 170 coins total.

I could be wrong.

C

Of course you can't actually do that because you can't then get to £60 using only larger denominations. You'll have to use 49 20ps to hit an exact number of pounds.

[mrmr96]

kambites said:

I think it's a common mistake to make - a lot of people confused "currency" with "legal tender". You can have currency that's not legal tender and, in theory, legal tender that's not monetary currency (although I don't know if anywhere does the latter).

What about the new £20 coin?
Or the old £1m and £100m notes?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-21145103