RE: Ferrari F12: Review
Discussion
Pointless car.
Pointless right up to the moment you can afford one without even looking at the price, and you also have a few track cars to keep your 'hero driver' status intact. Probably a few Bentleys for going to the paper shop. Then it becomes rather less pointless.
Some people need to step outside their own frame of reference.
Pointless right up to the moment you can afford one without even looking at the price, and you also have a few track cars to keep your 'hero driver' status intact. Probably a few Bentleys for going to the paper shop. Then it becomes rather less pointless.
Some people need to step outside their own frame of reference.
Dagnut said:
0a said:
"Driving the F12 on the road in the UK is nothing more than a lesson in restraint. In most very, very fast cars the judicious, experienced driver can find moments to explore those capabilities without exposing themselves to too much trouble. The F12 exists outside those boundaries and in a zone I have only really experienced before driving loopy 800hp GT-Rs. It is so fast, the numbers accrue so vividly that it really is impossible to experience the full glory on the public road. That's a sad admission, but it's true."
What a completely pointless car
Name one supercar made past 1995 that you can experience in its full glory on the road? Can you fully exploit even an M3? no of course not ...no where near. What a completely pointless car
What a pointless critique of any modern supercar.
E38Ross said:
Dagnut said:
0a said:
"Driving the F12 on the road in the UK is nothing more than a lesson in restraint. In most very, very fast cars the judicious, experienced driver can find moments to explore those capabilities without exposing themselves to too much trouble. The F12 exists outside those boundaries and in a zone I have only really experienced before driving loopy 800hp GT-Rs. It is so fast, the numbers accrue so vividly that it really is impossible to experience the full glory on the public road. That's a sad admission, but it's true."
What a completely pointless car
Name one supercar made past 1995 that you can experience in its full glory on the road? Can you fully exploit even an M3? no of course not ...no where near. What a completely pointless car
What a pointless critique of any modern supercar.
365daytonafan said:
Blackpuddin said:
So Ferrari is now charging an extra £15k+ to paint its cars red? Hmm.
Rossa Monza is a special order shade of red, I believe that cars painted in that shade are initially finished in normal Rosso Corsa, The car is then taken to a specialist paintshop to be repainted in Rosso Monza. If you scratch it the car has to go back to the same paintshop to be redone.It's basically the same red as seen on the Alfa Romeo 8C and bizarrely enough was briefly available on the entire range of Alfa Romeos. You could have your Mito in the same colour and it still cost £15k to paint.
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Re ... All the negative comments towards Ferrari for making such a pointless car, the lack of steering feel, the ease of use, it's too fast for England's roads, it's not a proper Supercar, blah blah blah ... Are these negative comments actually coming from people who have actually driven the car and can therefore give us all their own personal views gained from personal experience ... or are people who have simply read articles other people have written jumping on the band wagon and regurgitating someone else's views?
I see the F12 as an epic car, not as flamboyant as an Aventador, but similar performance, 2 seats, £280-£300k price tag etc, so it's natural to put the two biggest rivals in the car game for the last 50yrs flagship models head to head to compare them, even if they are very different cars in truth.
My "GUESS" from what I've read and from recent Ferrari's such as the Cali and 458 feel/drive like, would be that the Ferrari is easier to live with every day, more comfortable, easier to drive for the majority of the time, slicker gear changes, lighter feel, better interior 'feel' quality, and generally better for longer distances so a Supercar + GT characteristics.
The Aventador is completely opposite (to what I guess the F12 will be like) in terms of harsher ride quiality, more raw, lower, wider, doors go up, 4 wheels drive so a touch less skittish and can be driven harder with more confidence in the damp/rain (by non-professional racing drivers), not very comfortable over longer journeys, otherwise completely impractical but gains far more looks and attention everywhere it goes than an F12 will ever get.
As for anyone wanting both cars, I seriously doubt for anyone who has to work for a living, that the differences are big enough to ever justify that, unless money doesn't even come into the equation and your garage can house 6+ cars ... Which unfortunately mine doesn't.
I can read these articles but until I have driven one myself, I can't really offer any sort of constructive comment as to whether it's good or bad ... But once I have which should be next week, I'll come back and give my opinion ... But that's all it'll be, my personal opinion and from someone who's highly unlikely to get anywhere close to 75% of either cars true capability.
That's the beauty of having so many makes, models of car these days ... There's something for everyone and no right or wrong to any car. For example, my wife would choose her Sirrocco every time over any of my cars which she won't even drive (which suits me fine).
I see the F12 as an epic car, not as flamboyant as an Aventador, but similar performance, 2 seats, £280-£300k price tag etc, so it's natural to put the two biggest rivals in the car game for the last 50yrs flagship models head to head to compare them, even if they are very different cars in truth.
My "GUESS" from what I've read and from recent Ferrari's such as the Cali and 458 feel/drive like, would be that the Ferrari is easier to live with every day, more comfortable, easier to drive for the majority of the time, slicker gear changes, lighter feel, better interior 'feel' quality, and generally better for longer distances so a Supercar + GT characteristics.
The Aventador is completely opposite (to what I guess the F12 will be like) in terms of harsher ride quiality, more raw, lower, wider, doors go up, 4 wheels drive so a touch less skittish and can be driven harder with more confidence in the damp/rain (by non-professional racing drivers), not very comfortable over longer journeys, otherwise completely impractical but gains far more looks and attention everywhere it goes than an F12 will ever get.
As for anyone wanting both cars, I seriously doubt for anyone who has to work for a living, that the differences are big enough to ever justify that, unless money doesn't even come into the equation and your garage can house 6+ cars ... Which unfortunately mine doesn't.
I can read these articles but until I have driven one myself, I can't really offer any sort of constructive comment as to whether it's good or bad ... But once I have which should be next week, I'll come back and give my opinion ... But that's all it'll be, my personal opinion and from someone who's highly unlikely to get anywhere close to 75% of either cars true capability.
That's the beauty of having so many makes, models of car these days ... There's something for everyone and no right or wrong to any car. For example, my wife would choose her Sirrocco every time over any of my cars which she won't even drive (which suits me fine).
toppstuff said:
E38Ross said:
Maybe you should tell ferrari this, you obviously have done more market research that they have and clearly know better than a multi million pound company! I'd suggest phoning them first thing tomorrow morning where they're going wrong.
They make them like they do because that's what the market wants. You don't understand it but you aren't in the market so why should ferrari care what you think?
The market is moving to places and to prospective drivers who can't drive a manual, don't like or understand why cars should be challenging to drive, don't see the reason or have the inclination to learn how to get the best from a car. They want power and prestige in a car as easy to drive as a Yaris. They make them like they do because that's what the market wants. You don't understand it but you aren't in the market so why should ferrari care what you think?
Amirhussain said:
toppstuff said:
E38Ross said:
Maybe you should tell ferrari this, you obviously have done more market research that they have and clearly know better than a multi million pound company! I'd suggest phoning them first thing tomorrow morning where they're going wrong.
They make them like they do because that's what the market wants. You don't understand it but you aren't in the market so why should ferrari care what you think?
The market is moving to places and to prospective drivers who can't drive a manual, don't like or understand why cars should be challenging to drive, don't see the reason or have the inclination to learn how to get the best from a car. They want power and prestige in a car as easy to drive as a Yaris. They make them like they do because that's what the market wants. You don't understand it but you aren't in the market so why should ferrari care what you think?
Oh wait, that market is so big Lotus are doing fantastically.
I'm shocked at reading most of the comments, this is PH and this is a car with a 6 litre V12 that puts out more power than the moon and is RWD using Natural Atmospheric means.
www.greenpeace.org.uk
I'll stay here and aspire to the F12 whilst you all go out and buy Prius's as it's more performance than you'll use on the road anyway.
On the car, I'm definitely in love. Think in the right shade of Gun Metal you're on to a winner, it's not a track car and doesn't pretend to be. It's a GT car with a magnificent engine, which by the sounds of it from Harris may be a bit too loud through London (a place I would rarely take it).
EDIT - Found it, I'm off to go rob an oil baron:
www.greenpeace.org.uk
I'll stay here and aspire to the F12 whilst you all go out and buy Prius's as it's more performance than you'll use on the road anyway.
On the car, I'm definitely in love. Think in the right shade of Gun Metal you're on to a winner, it's not a track car and doesn't pretend to be. It's a GT car with a magnificent engine, which by the sounds of it from Harris may be a bit too loud through London (a place I would rarely take it).
EDIT - Found it, I'm off to go rob an oil baron:
Edited by exceed on Thursday 19th September 12:20
exceed said:
I'm shocked at reading most of the comments, this is PH and this is a car with a 6 litre V12 that puts out more power than the moon and is RWD using Natural Atmospheric means.
www.greenpeace.org.uk
I'll stay here and aspire to the F12 whilst you all go out and buy Prius's as it's more performance than you'll use on the road anyway.
On the car, I'm definitely in love. Think in the right shade of Gun Metal you're on to a winner, it's not a track car and doesn't pretend to be. It's a GT car with a magnificent engine, which by the sounds of it from Harris may be a bit too loud through London (a place I would rarely take it).
EDIT - Found it, I'm off to go rob an oil baron:
Abso"f()**ing" lutely. Gorgeously Provocative.www.greenpeace.org.uk
I'll stay here and aspire to the F12 whilst you all go out and buy Prius's as it's more performance than you'll use on the road anyway.
On the car, I'm definitely in love. Think in the right shade of Gun Metal you're on to a winner, it's not a track car and doesn't pretend to be. It's a GT car with a magnificent engine, which by the sounds of it from Harris may be a bit too loud through London (a place I would rarely take it).
EDIT - Found it, I'm off to go rob an oil baron:
Edited by exceed on Thursday 19th September 12:20
"It is so choice. If you have the means, I highly recommend picking one up."
Its a couple of months since I sold my R12, but I can still remember the good (exhaust note, incredible speed) and the less good (size, incredible speed). It felt like a huge jump onwards from the 599, which of course after all those years it should have been, but ultimately for me felt too constrained on the roads to be able to enjoy it very much. Sure I could have had more fun in it, but equally suspect that had I done so they this message would be being typed from either Pentonville or posthumously.
I'm back in a 12C now, which isn't perfect but about as "special" a daily car as I've ever found (I realise those terms don't easily go together). Sure its too fast most of the time, but it feels so much smaller on the road it means I can enjoy it more. Perhaps its my driving that's inadequate, I've just developed a preference for driving cars that feel shrunk around me because it gives me so much more confidence on the road.
The whole "pointless" argument is an interesting one. Of course these cars are all pointless if you simply want to get from A to B. For me its about the smile they put on my face when going from A to B, and ultimately I think its broader in the 12C than it was in the F12. Then a again I think its broader still in quite a few older supercars which provide more fantastic moments without having to be at warp speed to do so. Harris recent F40 video perfectly conveyed how that car can make you feel as a driver, and it can do so at accessible speeds - I defy many people to have the same thrill in an Enzo, or an F12 for that matter, without being well into three figures.
I'm back in a 12C now, which isn't perfect but about as "special" a daily car as I've ever found (I realise those terms don't easily go together). Sure its too fast most of the time, but it feels so much smaller on the road it means I can enjoy it more. Perhaps its my driving that's inadequate, I've just developed a preference for driving cars that feel shrunk around me because it gives me so much more confidence on the road.
The whole "pointless" argument is an interesting one. Of course these cars are all pointless if you simply want to get from A to B. For me its about the smile they put on my face when going from A to B, and ultimately I think its broader in the 12C than it was in the F12. Then a again I think its broader still in quite a few older supercars which provide more fantastic moments without having to be at warp speed to do so. Harris recent F40 video perfectly conveyed how that car can make you feel as a driver, and it can do so at accessible speeds - I defy many people to have the same thrill in an Enzo, or an F12 for that matter, without being well into three figures.
E38Ross said:
Dagnut said:
0a said:
"Driving the F12 on the road in the UK is nothing more than a lesson in restraint. In most very, very fast cars the judicious, experienced driver can find moments to explore those capabilities without exposing themselves to too much trouble. The F12 exists outside those boundaries and in a zone I have only really experienced before driving loopy 800hp GT-Rs. It is so fast, the numbers accrue so vividly that it really is impossible to experience the full glory on the public road. That's a sad admission, but it's true."
What a completely pointless car
Name one supercar made past 1995 that you can experience in its full glory on the road? Can you fully exploit even an M3? no of course not ...no where near. What a completely pointless car
What a pointless critique of any modern supercar.
f1ten said:
there are two obvious problems though...
it doesnt look as good as the Aventador and it doesnt sound as good either... the enzo derived 599 engine made a better noise at full pelt (in my humble opinion!)
Is it because the F12 sounds 'fake'? Do you think Ferrari are trying to hard to make it sound like something it isn't?it doesnt look as good as the Aventador and it doesnt sound as good either... the enzo derived 599 engine made a better noise at full pelt (in my humble opinion!)
Great review CH, but the thought of a car that only lasts 30k miles before it starts falling to pieces is too much for me, especially when it costs £300k. But I will admit it is an stunning car to behold. Personally I would look else where at Mclaren or Porsche.
bagman13 said:
f1ten said:
there are two obvious problems though...
it doesnt look as good as the Aventador and it doesnt sound as good either... the enzo derived 599 engine made a better noise at full pelt (in my humble opinion!)
Is it because the F12 sounds 'fake'? Do you think Ferrari are trying to hard to make it sound like something it isn't?it doesnt look as good as the Aventador and it doesnt sound as good either... the enzo derived 599 engine made a better noise at full pelt (in my humble opinion!)
Great review CH, but the thought of a car that only lasts 30k miles before it starts falling to pieces is too much for me, especially when it costs £300k. But I will admit it is an stunning car to behold. Personally I would look else where at Mclaren or Porsche.
Interesting read, but I can't help but feel sad when reading it.
Understandably, and sadly, expensive sports cars are now designed to be sold in numbers. Companies like Ferrari and Lamborghini need to survive, and to survive their cars have to be marketable in the environment where the money is; big cities. So they've become adept at driving at 5mph, they've had their exhausts tuned to sound impressive in stop-start traffic, and they've almost all become realistic everyday propositions with their sat-navs, auto gearboxes and bluetooth nonsense.
None of the above make the car any less entertaining at 10/10ths for sure; the exhaust will sound incredible under full-load and the gearbox will make sense when you're absolutely 100% on it, but I think they're suffering hugely during the bit in-between - the bit where I'd hope a supercar would distance itself from the day-to-day machinery. The bit where I, as an average but enthusiastic driver, would bond with a car, where I'd experience the precision of the engineering just by swapping a gear. It's all been lost, hidden by huge power. Power which will be surpassed with the next gen. I have to ask myself what would be better? A Ferrari Daytona with a manual 'box or a dual clutch? An F40 with a manual or an automatic? Obviously there's no comparison.
Now excitement and involvement is sold as a gimmick à la GT86, or (sadly) Lotus. Why in 2013 does a 6.3l 700+bhp V12 need a trick exhaust? Why does it need trick anything? It's a V12 Ferrari FFS. It should be exciting and thrilling by definition.
Ferrari's maddest, "off the shelf" car is just an everyday car. No doubt great in extremes but, like every modern (certainly automatic) supercar I've driven, uninvolving at road speeds, and therefore (sadly) pointless.
I'd have one though.
Understandably, and sadly, expensive sports cars are now designed to be sold in numbers. Companies like Ferrari and Lamborghini need to survive, and to survive their cars have to be marketable in the environment where the money is; big cities. So they've become adept at driving at 5mph, they've had their exhausts tuned to sound impressive in stop-start traffic, and they've almost all become realistic everyday propositions with their sat-navs, auto gearboxes and bluetooth nonsense.
None of the above make the car any less entertaining at 10/10ths for sure; the exhaust will sound incredible under full-load and the gearbox will make sense when you're absolutely 100% on it, but I think they're suffering hugely during the bit in-between - the bit where I'd hope a supercar would distance itself from the day-to-day machinery. The bit where I, as an average but enthusiastic driver, would bond with a car, where I'd experience the precision of the engineering just by swapping a gear. It's all been lost, hidden by huge power. Power which will be surpassed with the next gen. I have to ask myself what would be better? A Ferrari Daytona with a manual 'box or a dual clutch? An F40 with a manual or an automatic? Obviously there's no comparison.
Now excitement and involvement is sold as a gimmick à la GT86, or (sadly) Lotus. Why in 2013 does a 6.3l 700+bhp V12 need a trick exhaust? Why does it need trick anything? It's a V12 Ferrari FFS. It should be exciting and thrilling by definition.
Ferrari's maddest, "off the shelf" car is just an everyday car. No doubt great in extremes but, like every modern (certainly automatic) supercar I've driven, uninvolving at road speeds, and therefore (sadly) pointless.
I'd have one though.
Matt UK said:
Dagnut said:
This is pistonheads? 3 pages of comments, half of them negative.."what is it for" really??? wtf is this site for?
I think it is primarily for getting feedback on spelling and grammar. I do not shy away from the fact that I do not like the direction Ferrari are taking. Others clearly disagree.
But a numbed, easy to drive rocketship is not my idea of what is desirable.
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