RE: Jag: we got it wrong
Discussion
Lowtimer said:
tali1 said:
The Ford Jags were criticized for being too retro
But who actually suddenly decided that was a bad thing?????
The customers, surely? Sales of the S-Type were stagnant, and with the new look of the XF sales started to grow again.But who actually suddenly decided that was a bad thing?????
Edited by Lowtimer on Thursday 3rd October 23:21
A late Diesel did not help
But bear in mind that between the two of them ( S and X )they did take Jaguar to record sales figures.
DonkeyApple said:
..... I think the real credit goes to the Brits as TATA were almost forced into the laisez faire ownership stance that has permitted this.
Another area where I disagree with you is where you suggest that many of the comments on PH at the time of the purchase 'verged on racism'. I disagree that they 'verged' at all. They were downright racist, plain and simple.
My sister has been working for Jaguar aka Tata motors for about a year. One of the first issues the Indians had to contend with were the British Leyland working practices, one of them being theft of materials/parts by individuals in the business. Another area where I disagree with you is where you suggest that many of the comments on PH at the time of the purchase 'verged on racism'. I disagree that they 'verged' at all. They were downright racist, plain and simple.
Edited by DonkeyApple on Thursday 3rd October 11:16
They established a legal dept. Originally all legal work was outsourced incl. contracts e.t.c Now it is done in house. The upshot of this being they take/threaten legal action against people caught stealing materials in the business, leading to a significant reduction in inventory "shrinkage". Apparently up until then people had been getting away with it indefinitely.
As for the racism point, we had a chuckle when the Indians took over JLR .The workforce at Castle Bromwich in particular, would threaten industrial action if BL hired black/asian workers in the plant. The Indian takeover must have upset a few dinosaurs!
A typical incident in the recent past,
"The second of the five 'failings' was that local union officials and
shop stewards actively participated in racist practices. Examples in the 1970's
and 80's are easy to find. For example:- in July 1977 a black Birmingham-born
man applied for a job at British Leyland's Castle Bromwich plant as a machine
tool fitter, a job for which he was well qualified. Some of the toolroom
maintenance fitters asked the AUEW shop steward to arrange a meeting, and a
motion was passed that they would not accept a coloured fitter. Consequently Mr
Jones, the black applicant, was rejected for the job. The case came to light
after a white employee informed the CRE some 9 months after the event, and a
formal investigation by the CRE found that BL Cars Ltd and the two AUEW shop
stewards had contravened the Race Relations Act (CRE, 1981). (It is important to
note that at that time BL was supposedly an "Equal Opportunity" employer and was
colluding in discriminatory practices with a union which had passed a number of
conference resolutions on the importance of equal opportunity)."
Source: Unequal Comrades, Trade Unions, Equal opportunity and Racism. By John Wrench. Policy Paper No.5 April 1986. pp11. University of Warwick.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
It's got nothing whatsoever to do with so called 'brands'.The volume issue,taken to it's logical conclusion, just means make whatever you can sell the most of in the most numbers regardless of the badge.Ironically it was that exact same logic which applied in the case of the X type and it was the mistake in going for volume sales,as opposed to just staying with the marque's historic low volume core market sector,that led to the X type's failure.Not the bulls
t issue of it's so called 'retro' styling.anonymous said:
[redacted]
My sales figures point was more to do with " S and X were not the flops everyone perceives" - but yes small beer compared to rivals.JLR have "ambitious" aims to sell 100,000 cars in China, whereas Audi have already sold 400,000 in 2012
I remember in magazine ads Saab used to boast of their exclusivity against Germans due to low volumes...
anonymous said:
[redacted]
My sales figures point was more to do with " S and X were not the flops everyone perceives" - but yes small beer compared to rivals.JLR have "ambitious" aims to sell 100,000 cars in China, whereas Audi have already sold 400,000 in 2012
I remember in magazine ads Saab used to boast of their exclusivity against Germans due to low volumes...
DonkeyApple said:
Joffery666 said:
Thank you TATA
Thank you INDIA.
For doing what the yanks at ford couldn't do, and the dopy Brits needed mothering to get the brand back to where it belongs.
We're grateful and appreciate it, even though there was
MANY MANY moking on this forum when the takeover happened, that verged on racism, you've shown these Brits how it should be done.
God bless you.
Although, the reality is slightly more tempered. What TATA did was release the company from an over controlling, overseas board of control.Thank you INDIA.
For doing what the yanks at ford couldn't do, and the dopy Brits needed mothering to get the brand back to where it belongs.
We're grateful and appreciate it, even though there was
MANY MANY moking on this forum when the takeover happened, that verged on racism, you've shown these Brits how it should be done.
God bless you.
The people inside Jaguar have always been good but have for such a long time been under the yoke of excessive control and disperate criteria, whether BL, pension funds or Ford.
Ford saved Jaguar. Without Ford, Jaguar would have gone long ago. Jaguar was a bankrupt maker of two models in relatively low volume trying to compete against a rapidly globalising and heavily funded industry.
Ford's error was to flood it with too much cash and to also try and dominate its direction, hence we ended up with Americanised XJ's and then wierd nostalgic smaller models. They were right to expand the model range but wrong with their focus and control.
Jaguar were already moving away from the 'nostalgia' era when Ford went technically bankrupt and had to sell off all non US assets as part of its restructuring.
JLR got lucky then in two ways. Firstly, Ford had ploughed in billions of investment into the new factories and models and then were forced sellers at a comical discount. Secondly, JLR had the good fortune to attract TATA at a time when India was expanding and TATA were looking to increase their image in terms of brand as well as global presence.
The real key to TATA's success has been two fold, firstly the massive increase in demand for SUVs globally combined with the legacy investment from Ford, secondly, they made a crucial descision not not over interfer with the running of JLR.
But, let's step back a minute and look at TATA itself. It was a company that had to come to London to raise the finance to buy JLR, it didn't have the cash itself. Nor, did it, or does it, have the expertise to run a firm like JLR so they had to step back a little and give reign to the board of JLR as well as also pay heed to the entities which funded the deal. Then, you can have a look at TATA's other businesses. They are in a bit of a mess really arent they? Many are badly run and losing money. In fact, the revenue from JLR is being sucked out as fast as it is coming in to finance TATA's massive debt obligations.
So, let's be a little pragmatic here.
Ford saved JLR. Ford knew it had to expand the range. Ford ploughed billions into the British prestige car industry and saved thousands of jobs and expanded it massively.
Ford may have made errors by being over controlling and pitching the brand incorrectly but they still increased sales massively throughout their ownership. It was Ford money that rebuilt the factories and fuelled the re-design of the cars. Ford only had to sell it's European non core assets because sales in the US halted in 2006/7 and they faced Chapter 11.
TATA saved JLR. TATA released JLR's management to continue with the plan put together and instigated under Ford. Back in 2006/7 I don't think there was a better suitor for JLR than TATA and I think this has been proven.
But, the reality is that in 2013 JLR is saving TATA. TATA is an over leveraged, badly run industrial conglomerate that if it did not have the monthly income from JLR to meet its debt obligations would be in the same situation as Ford was 6 years ago in needing to re-structure.
So, seeing as it was the British workers in JLR who put together the current plan for the new models and got them signed off by Ford and who have managed to deliver some fantastic new cars on a pretty stretched budget (let's not forget that the XF couldn't even be fitted with LED running lights at the launch because the company didn't have the money to do so because TATA had nothing to invest beyond the debt raised at that point) then I think the real credit goes to the Brits as TATA were almost forced into the laisez faire ownership stance that has permitted this.
Another area where I disagree with you is where you suggest that many of the comments on PH at the time of the purchase 'verged on racism'. I disagree that they 'verged' at all. They were downright racist, plain and simple.
Edited by DonkeyApple on Thursday 3rd October 11:16
XF was a car designed under Ford, not Tata, so the LED reference is rubbish. JLR management isn't all good, in fact a lot of it is stuck in the old BL management-by-fear era.
They got lucky with the F-Type, but I worry what is going to happen with the 4x4 and baby Jag. It looks like they may play it safe with XF derived styling, rather than moving it on. I hope not.
Ian Callum struggled with the XF shape, and Ford had to step in to save it. Good job, as it's now one of the best looking cars on the market, and streets ahead of anything German, even in it's twilight years. But thing have to move on.
The XF looks no worse and no better than its German counterparts. The fact is that regulations have sucked individuality out of car designs as more and more hard points are dictated by regulation rather than style.
It's becoming a bit like a children's dot to dot book. unless you know what the picture is, all the lines between the dots are straight but essentially, they all end up with largely the same car.
I would call the XK a good-looking car. I wouldn't say that about the XF any more than I would say it about a Mondeo.
It's becoming a bit like a children's dot to dot book. unless you know what the picture is, all the lines between the dots are straight but essentially, they all end up with largely the same car.
I would call the XK a good-looking car. I wouldn't say that about the XF any more than I would say it about a Mondeo.
tali1 said:
JLR have "ambitious" aims to sell 100,000 cars in China, whereas Audi have already sold 400,000 in 2012
I remember in magazine ads Saab used to boast of their exclusivity against Germans due to low volumes...
SAAB's fwd 4 cylinder designs were never going to be credible products in the low volume market sector. I remember in magazine ads Saab used to boast of their exclusivity against Germans due to low volumes...
XJ Flyer said:
SAAB's fwd 4 cylinder designs were never going to be credible products in the low volume market sector.
The 4 cylinders served them well .I suspect it was more a lack of investment by GM and hence an ageing and limited range of cars.Do you think BWW would sell less if they were fwd?
fatboy b said:
Some of what you say is true. Some isn't.
XF was a car designed under Ford, not Tata, so the LED reference is rubbish. JLR management isn't all good, in fact a lot of it is stuck in the old BL management-by-fear era.
They got lucky with the F-Type, but I worry what is going to happen with the 4x4 and baby Jag. It looks like they may play it safe with XF derived styling, rather than moving it on. I hope not.
Ian Callum struggled with the XF shape, and Ford had to step in to save it. Good job, as it's now one of the best looking cars on the market, and streets ahead of anything German, even in it's twilight years. But thing have to move on.
But where did I say the F was under TATA? I thought I said the opposite. XF was a car designed under Ford, not Tata, so the LED reference is rubbish. JLR management isn't all good, in fact a lot of it is stuck in the old BL management-by-fear era.
They got lucky with the F-Type, but I worry what is going to happen with the 4x4 and baby Jag. It looks like they may play it safe with XF derived styling, rather than moving it on. I hope not.
Ian Callum struggled with the XF shape, and Ford had to step in to save it. Good job, as it's now one of the best looking cars on the market, and streets ahead of anything German, even in it's twilight years. But thing have to move on.
Plus, it didn't get the LEDs until later after some clean money started coming in. Not sure why the lack of funds to match BMW and the ilk is linked to either owner, both of whom a debt ridden messes.
DonkeyApple said:
fatboy b said:
Some of what you say is true. Some isn't.
XF was a car designed under Ford, not Tata, so the LED reference is rubbish. JLR management isn't all good, in fact a lot of it is stuck in the old BL management-by-fear era.
They got lucky with the F-Type, but I worry what is going to happen with the 4x4 and baby Jag. It looks like they may play it safe with XF derived styling, rather than moving it on. I hope not.
Ian Callum struggled with the XF shape, and Ford had to step in to save it. Good job, as it's now one of the best looking cars on the market, and streets ahead of anything German, even in it's twilight years. But thing have to move on.
But where did I say the F was under TATA? I thought I said the opposite. XF was a car designed under Ford, not Tata, so the LED reference is rubbish. JLR management isn't all good, in fact a lot of it is stuck in the old BL management-by-fear era.
They got lucky with the F-Type, but I worry what is going to happen with the 4x4 and baby Jag. It looks like they may play it safe with XF derived styling, rather than moving it on. I hope not.
Ian Callum struggled with the XF shape, and Ford had to step in to save it. Good job, as it's now one of the best looking cars on the market, and streets ahead of anything German, even in it's twilight years. But thing have to move on.
Plus, it didn't get the LEDs until later after some clean money started coming in. Not sure why the lack of funds to match BMW and the ilk is linked to either owner, both of whom a debt ridden messes.
fatboy b said:
DonkeyApple said:
fatboy b said:
Some of what you say is true. Some isn't.
XF was a car designed under Ford, not Tata, so the LED reference is rubbish. JLR management isn't all good, in fact a lot of it is stuck in the old BL management-by-fear era.
They got lucky with the F-Type, but I worry what is going to happen with the 4x4 and baby Jag. It looks like they may play it safe with XF derived styling, rather than moving it on. I hope not.
Ian Callum struggled with the XF shape, and Ford had to step in to save it. Good job, as it's now one of the best looking cars on the market, and streets ahead of anything German, even in it's twilight years. But thing have to move on.
But where did I say the F was under TATA? I thought I said the opposite. XF was a car designed under Ford, not Tata, so the LED reference is rubbish. JLR management isn't all good, in fact a lot of it is stuck in the old BL management-by-fear era.
They got lucky with the F-Type, but I worry what is going to happen with the 4x4 and baby Jag. It looks like they may play it safe with XF derived styling, rather than moving it on. I hope not.
Ian Callum struggled with the XF shape, and Ford had to step in to save it. Good job, as it's now one of the best looking cars on the market, and streets ahead of anything German, even in it's twilight years. But thing have to move on.
Plus, it didn't get the LEDs until later after some clean money started coming in. Not sure why the lack of funds to match BMW and the ilk is linked to either owner, both of whom a debt ridden messes.
The sad situation at present is that you can see that JLR is being stripped to finance other beleaguered parts of the empire and its very worrying to see that the latest news on the Defender replacement is that it is likely to be a pastiche on the Evoque pan.
Some will also argue that it was Land Rover that kept them afloat in the worst times and while this is probably true it is the XF that put Jaguar back in the game.
DonkeyApple said:
By the time the car launched all the main competition had them. The omission by Jaguar was purely about not having the money to do so. That's really what is so great about the XF, the limited budget under Ford on which it was designed and especially built. It then took TATA some time to redress the balance.
I have heard (reliably) that the Ford CEO demanded the XF launched with those awful headlights. The original design was to launch the car with the front lamps on the 12MY refresh. As for LEDs, no idea.Edited by RenOHH on Saturday 5th October 09:34
RenOHH said:
DonkeyApple said:
By the time the car launched all the main competition had them. The omission by Jaguar was purely about not having the money to do so. That's really what is so great about the XF, the limited budget under Ford on which it was designed and especially built. It then took TATA some time to redress the balance.
I have heard (reliably) that the Ford CEO demanded the XF launched with those awful headlights. The original design was to launch the car with the front lamps on the 12MY refresh. As for LEDs, no idea.Edited by RenOHH on Saturday 5th October 09:34
tali1 said:
XJ Flyer said:
SAAB's fwd 4 cylinder designs were never going to be credible products in the low volume market sector.
The 4 cylinders served them well .I suspect it was more a lack of investment by GM and hence an ageing and limited range of cars.Do you think BWW would sell less if they were fwd?
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