RE: Alfa Romeo 4C: Review
Discussion
AgentZ said:
This is probably down to how EVO and Autocar weigh the cars. 35kg is roughly what 11 gallons of fuel weighs explaining the EVO weight. Autocar's test 1.9 GTI weighed 1091kg so I'm guessing they include a full fuel tank and two 75kg passengers in their weight test?
There are cars that Autocar have weighed recently that have been lighter than claimed. Toyota's claim for the GT86 is 1240kg min/1275kg max yet it came in at 1235kg.
That's right - 1091 with 2 testers, half a tank and test gear.There are cars that Autocar have weighed recently that have been lighter than claimed. Toyota's claim for the GT86 is 1240kg min/1275kg max yet it came in at 1235kg.
Nowadays the figure is car ready to drive, no tester.
Recent Exige S was 1176kg - same as a Sierra V6 more or less
MikeSpencer said:
I read on Autocar's website they were only building 3,500. Who's right?
'Overall, each 4C takes between 20 and 25 hours to build. The company says it has the capacity to produce up to 1000 units per year. Just 3500 examples of the car will be built, with the first deliveries expected early next year.' (Alfa Romeo 4C to cost £45,000. Darren Moss, 17/09/13).
Autocar appear to have misread the press release, 3,500 annual not total production:'Overall, each 4C takes between 20 and 25 hours to build. The company says it has the capacity to produce up to 1000 units per year. Just 3500 examples of the car will be built, with the first deliveries expected early next year.' (Alfa Romeo 4C to cost £45,000. Darren Moss, 17/09/13).
Edited by MikeSpencer on Saturday 21st September 20:07
'The annual overall availability is limited to 3,500 cars, 1,000 of which are destined to the European markets due to constraints bound to the technical and technological solutions adopted.' Alfa Romeo 4C Presspack
There is not enough excitement about this Alfa.
Does anyone know that this car is a first in many ways?
The first small (if a bit wide) sporstcar to be built from and have all the advantages of carbon fiber construction. Yes, carbon fiber is more rigid, safer, and lighter than the popular aluminum construction so many manufactures have held to.
This is also the first small-therefore usable and weildy, carbon car to as well not have to rely upon electric or even hydraulic steering. Even a relatively heavy Mclaren, with its super wide tires, must use eletro-hydraulic steering.
So this new Alfa will likely be lighter than a Porsche, as safe in a crash or even safer than a Porsche, will be more maneuverable, more adjustable, and will give a much better feel for the road.
Its seems like these simple but innovative attributes have not been clearly explained by anyone (not sure why?) yet, this is a first! Maybe the start of many more like it. martin
Does anyone know that this car is a first in many ways?
The first small (if a bit wide) sporstcar to be built from and have all the advantages of carbon fiber construction. Yes, carbon fiber is more rigid, safer, and lighter than the popular aluminum construction so many manufactures have held to.
This is also the first small-therefore usable and weildy, carbon car to as well not have to rely upon electric or even hydraulic steering. Even a relatively heavy Mclaren, with its super wide tires, must use eletro-hydraulic steering.
So this new Alfa will likely be lighter than a Porsche, as safe in a crash or even safer than a Porsche, will be more maneuverable, more adjustable, and will give a much better feel for the road.
Its seems like these simple but innovative attributes have not been clearly explained by anyone (not sure why?) yet, this is a first! Maybe the start of many more like it. martin
martin elaman said:
There is not enough excitement about this Alfa.
Agreed, this is IMVHO a very interesting bit of kit and as a bonus it is coming from Alfa. Mr. Marchionne is doing a lot of things right...While on the topic of carbon fibre: did anything change in the (raw) material or production costs over the last few years? I'm surprised this is doable at the price point the 4C is at, and e.g. in the volume BMW aim for with the i3. Anyone in the know?
A lot of this tech (that of BMW's and Lambo's and Mclaren recent as well) stems from work from the Rocky Mountain Institute...here..http://www.rmi.org/search-category/Transportation/Hypercars/sharepoint, they have sold patents for the quick injection mold technique that makes these tubs come out faster.
This is tech Lotus should have used a long long time ago. Alfa are able to make an else like car, but with more basic luxuries and even a dual clutch transmission. Importantly this tub is likely several time more rigid than the elises, so its safer and has better suspension mounting points for a what should be an even better handling car- I note that on track is performs excellently, better than the elise.
What we have here is real innovation applied to the small and light reasonably priced sports car, a true innovation. My hat off to the people at Alfa for having the guts to do this, when others have failed. Martin
This is tech Lotus should have used a long long time ago. Alfa are able to make an else like car, but with more basic luxuries and even a dual clutch transmission. Importantly this tub is likely several time more rigid than the elises, so its safer and has better suspension mounting points for a what should be an even better handling car- I note that on track is performs excellently, better than the elise.
What we have here is real innovation applied to the small and light reasonably priced sports car, a true innovation. My hat off to the people at Alfa for having the guts to do this, when others have failed. Martin
Another positive review, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPw2BIspgP0 - Turn on captions for the subtitles.
Two things:
1. Carbon fibre alone doesn't equate to weight saving or 'safety'. Crash structures have reinforcements with a variety of materials to be effective as I understand it, so saying something is carbon fibre and assuming it's safe/doesn't weigh much is anomalous. An all-alu car could be lighter, like anything the best material is the right one for the job...
2. Saying a V6 wouldn't meet emissions or be too heavy just isn't true. It comes down to cost. There isn't room for a petrol V6 elsewhere in the Fiat empire so they wouldn't spend millions building one from scratch on a project that already looks like a loss leader. Porsche, BMW and others prove you can make efficient petrol six cylinders. Even yank all-alu V8s are surprisingly light. All the additional hardware needed for a turbo can weigh a lot, it's just that the 1750 is off the shelf.
1. Carbon fibre alone doesn't equate to weight saving or 'safety'. Crash structures have reinforcements with a variety of materials to be effective as I understand it, so saying something is carbon fibre and assuming it's safe/doesn't weigh much is anomalous. An all-alu car could be lighter, like anything the best material is the right one for the job...
2. Saying a V6 wouldn't meet emissions or be too heavy just isn't true. It comes down to cost. There isn't room for a petrol V6 elsewhere in the Fiat empire so they wouldn't spend millions building one from scratch on a project that already looks like a loss leader. Porsche, BMW and others prove you can make efficient petrol six cylinders. Even yank all-alu V8s are surprisingly light. All the additional hardware needed for a turbo can weigh a lot, it's just that the 1750 is off the shelf.
LongLiveTazio said:
Two things:
1. Carbon fibre alone doesn't equate to weight saving or 'safety'. Crash structures have reinforcements with a variety of materials to be effective as I understand it, so saying something is carbon fibre and assuming it's safe/doesn't weigh much is anomalous. An all-alu car could be lighter, like anything the best material is the right one for the job...
2. Saying a V6 wouldn't meet emissions or be too heavy just isn't true. It comes down to cost. There isn't room for a petrol V6 elsewhere in the Fiat empire so they wouldn't spend millions building one from scratch on a project that already looks like a loss leader. Porsche, BMW and others prove you can make efficient petrol six cylinders. Even yank all-alu V8s are surprisingly light. All the additional hardware needed for a turbo can weigh a lot, it's just that the 1750 is off the shelf.
There's the V6 as fitted to the Quattroporte, and would they not have access to the Chrysler V6s?1. Carbon fibre alone doesn't equate to weight saving or 'safety'. Crash structures have reinforcements with a variety of materials to be effective as I understand it, so saying something is carbon fibre and assuming it's safe/doesn't weigh much is anomalous. An all-alu car could be lighter, like anything the best material is the right one for the job...
2. Saying a V6 wouldn't meet emissions or be too heavy just isn't true. It comes down to cost. There isn't room for a petrol V6 elsewhere in the Fiat empire so they wouldn't spend millions building one from scratch on a project that already looks like a loss leader. Porsche, BMW and others prove you can make efficient petrol six cylinders. Even yank all-alu V8s are surprisingly light. All the additional hardware needed for a turbo can weigh a lot, it's just that the 1750 is off the shelf.
EDIT: not that I care about this car having/not having a V6.
Edited by Jimbo. on Sunday 22 September 22:06
martin elaman said:
A lot of this tech (that of BMW's and Lambo's and Mclaren recent as well) stems from work from the Rocky Mountain Institute...here..http://www.rmi.org/search-category/Transportation/Hypercars/sharepoint, they have sold patents for the quick injection mold technique that makes these tubs come out faster.
Thanks for that, much appreciated! A lot of interesting material there. martin elaman said:
This is tech Lotus should have used a long long time ago. Alfa are able to make an else like car, but with more basic luxuries and even a dual clutch transmission. Importantly this tub is likely several time more rigid than the elises, so its safer and has better suspension mounting points for a what should be an even better handling car- I note that on track is performs excellently, better than the elise.
Think the jury is still out on track performance comparisons vs. Elise & cie, will be interesting to have a real 1/1 test at some time. But the 4C does look promising even with the fairly simple rear suspension, so that might be telling... Pains me to say it, but I think you are right regarding the move away from bonded aluminium tubs. Problem at Lotus most likely funding though, not the lack of clever people. The Elise (and many derivatives) was an incredible achievement for such a small outfit with not much backing. And materials aside, I think one can see a lot of "Eliseness" in the construction and styling of the 4C. I hope Lotus get the resources to keep up with new tech.
martin elaman said:
What we have here is real innovation applied to the small and light reasonably priced sports car, a true innovation. My hat off to the people at Alfa for having the guts to do this, when others have failed. Martin
Absolutely! Much, much respect for them. Quite exiting what they have delivered, and if this any indication of what they want to do with the brand -- mega great really!I think this car is one of the most interesting new cars in a long while, but I still think they should have put the new Maserati 3.0-liter bi-turbo V6 in it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5T0wbyxGAA
Sounds a lot better than any 4-banger.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5T0wbyxGAA
Sounds a lot better than any 4-banger.
Jimbo. said:
There's the V6 as fitted to the Quattroporte, and would they not have access to the Chrysler V6s?
EDIT: not that I care about this car having/not having a V6.
My apologies, I thought they only did a diesel for the Ghibli. In that case it's strange, IMO.EDIT: not that I care about this car having/not having a V6.
Edited by Jimbo. on Sunday 22 September 22:06
A stiff, (somewhat compromised), mid-engine, turbo 4-banger, 2 seat, lightweight, low, coupe with no PAS...
Alfa seems to have come up with a recipe that Lotus tried with the 2006 Europa S ;-) Only 100kgs lighter and only 15 bhp more than the 225 versions ... yet quite a lot more expensive.
The looks (aside from the headlights), the badge, the "it's got a carbon tub" bragging rights, will all count towards a healthy order book no doubt - but aside from the materials used, is it really any different to what's been done before?
Alfa seems to have come up with a recipe that Lotus tried with the 2006 Europa S ;-) Only 100kgs lighter and only 15 bhp more than the 225 versions ... yet quite a lot more expensive.
The looks (aside from the headlights), the badge, the "it's got a carbon tub" bragging rights, will all count towards a healthy order book no doubt - but aside from the materials used, is it really any different to what's been done before?
retro_racer said:
8 bearing crank????? how?
Obviously some engineering judgment was lost between the press kit and the publication of the article...From the old (March) press kit:
Alfa Romeo said:
The Alfa Romeo 4C's new mid-engine, all-aluminium power unit adopts specific optimised intake and exhaust systems, to enhance both response at low speeds and extension, with the assistance of a crankshaft with eight counterweights.
Which sounds about as usual as four rods. Nothing to see here... 
errek72 said:
To further the "V6" debate, for those that think the current figures would be only be possible for a light (?) turbo four pot and could not be achieved by an N/A V6 because of weight issues : these are the performance figures for the Diva on its wikipedia page : "The car has top speed of 270 km/h (168 mph) and can accelerate from zero to 100 km/h (62 mph) in five seconds." So near-identical. No mention of weight though.
It's the CO2 figures that could not by any means be achieved without a turbo four pot. Not enough margin to trick the EC testing without a turbo or hybrid system.And new car buyers pay dearly for those extra CO2. In France, you're looking at more than 10% of the list price in additional taxes alone (about 5k£), in Belgium, half that and I'm sure it's the same more or less anywhere. You can only ignore these taxes in the >100k£ market, maybe even more.
A advanced chassis hampered by an off the shelf engine, but blessed with a great driver focused ethos behind its design - sounds much like a certain car from Hethel. What confuses me is why Chris didn't draw more comparisons with the Elise. Is price the only consideration when comparing cars? That said, the Exige V6 is almost exactly the same price as the 4C. From reading the review and having driven the new Exige, to be honest I can imagine the Exige is the better car for the money... it's certainly much faster, with a more charismatic engine (s/c V6 vs t/c 4) and almost certainly better ride, handling and steering.
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