RE: BMW 130i: PH Carpool
Discussion
scherzkeks said:
Understeer is largely a function of how the vehicle is set up (which is also why last-gen BMW 1 series cars were just as notorious for understeering as any recent Audi on the track).
Understeer is also a sign that you have exceeded the limits of the setup and are either ham-fisting the thing, impatient with power application and steering inputs, or just flat out not driving clean lines. I have no problem "enjoying" AWD cars. I also like RWD, but not particularly for going fast -- and to me, going fast is a key component of sports driving.
Newsflash for you: You are not the only person on this site who knows how to exploit an AWD vehicle. Stop trying to lecture people on the basics and listen to what is being said.Understeer is also a sign that you have exceeded the limits of the setup and are either ham-fisting the thing, impatient with power application and steering inputs, or just flat out not driving clean lines. I have no problem "enjoying" AWD cars. I also like RWD, but not particularly for going fast -- and to me, going fast is a key component of sports driving.
Nobody is saying that an AWD car cannot be driven fast and in a manner that can beat many RWD cars over the same stretch, I know for sure that on a bumpy or slippy B road my S3 would show a clean pair of heals to my 130i but again that is not the point here! What is being said (and I should remind you, widely acknowledge by pretty much everyone in the car enthusiast community) is that the same stretch of road/track would be more enjoyable behind the wheel of RWD car with good dynamics.
If you find this hard to appreciate then maybe take up sailing or something.
Echo all of the positive comments above. Have owned mine for 2 years / 25k miles & been really impressed with it, especially since fitting Michelin PS3 non-rft's. Not many cars that can give you practicality, quality, 30mpg & that engine / performance combo.
Sadly, I now need to put it up for sale, so after the weekend my ad will be appearing on PH. 2006, 39k miles, FBMWSH, full leather, graphite grey, really well looked after car. If anyone is interested, let me know.
Sadly, I now need to put it up for sale, so after the weekend my ad will be appearing on PH. 2006, 39k miles, FBMWSH, full leather, graphite grey, really well looked after car. If anyone is interested, let me know.
Duffman83 said:
Hi P1H,
Cracking choice on the LE. Im looking to move into one of these two in the next year. One question though, how lemony is the lemony interior?
Hi, thanks! The answer is a lot less lemony than it might appear on some pictures. It is quite a non-offensive shade and to my surprise it actually fitted very well with the overall look of the car. Cracking choice on the LE. Im looking to move into one of these two in the next year. One question though, how lemony is the lemony interior?
P1H said:
This is the Limited Edition model. I put a deposit down on a mint condition model identical to this on Saturday. I'm very pleased with my choice!
P1H said:
Duffman83 said:
Hi P1H,
Cracking choice on the LE. Im looking to move into one of these two in the next year. One question though, how lemony is the lemony interior?
Hi, thanks! The answer is a lot less lemony than it might appear on some pictures. It is quite a non-offensive shade and to my surprise it actually fitted very well with the overall look of the car. Cracking choice on the LE. Im looking to move into one of these two in the next year. One question though, how lemony is the lemony interior?
P1H said:
This is the Limited Edition model. I put a deposit down on a mint condition model identical to this on Saturday. I'm very pleased with my choice!
DoubleSix said:
scherzkeks said:
Understeer is largely a function of how the vehicle is set up (which is also why last-gen BMW 1 series cars were just as notorious for understeering as any recent Audi on the track).
Understeer is also a sign that you have exceeded the limits of the setup and are either ham-fisting the thing, impatient with power application and steering inputs, or just flat out not driving clean lines. I have no problem "enjoying" AWD cars. I also like RWD, but not particularly for going fast -- and to me, going fast is a key component of sports driving.
Newsflash for you: You are not the only person on this site who knows how to exploit an AWD vehicle. Stop trying to lecture people on the basics and listen to what is being said.Understeer is also a sign that you have exceeded the limits of the setup and are either ham-fisting the thing, impatient with power application and steering inputs, or just flat out not driving clean lines. I have no problem "enjoying" AWD cars. I also like RWD, but not particularly for going fast -- and to me, going fast is a key component of sports driving.
Nobody is saying that an AWD car cannot be driven fast and in a manner that can beat many RWD cars over the same stretch, I know for sure that on a bumpy or slippy B road my S3 would show a clean pair of heals to my 130i but again that is not the point here! What is being said (and I should remind you, widely acknowledge by pretty much everyone in the car enthusiast community) is that the same stretch of road/track would be more enjoyable behind the wheel of RWD car with good dynamics.
If you find this hard to appreciate then maybe take up sailing or something.
aeropilot said:
DoubleSix said:
scherzkeks said:
Understeer is largely a function of how the vehicle is set up (which is also why last-gen BMW 1 series cars were just as notorious for understeering as any recent Audi on the track).
Understeer is also a sign that you have exceeded the limits of the setup and are either ham-fisting the thing, impatient with power application and steering inputs, or just flat out not driving clean lines. I have no problem "enjoying" AWD cars. I also like RWD, but not particularly for going fast -- and to me, going fast is a key component of sports driving.
Newsflash for you: You are not the only person on this site who knows how to exploit an AWD vehicle. Stop trying to lecture people on the basics and listen to what is being said.Understeer is also a sign that you have exceeded the limits of the setup and are either ham-fisting the thing, impatient with power application and steering inputs, or just flat out not driving clean lines. I have no problem "enjoying" AWD cars. I also like RWD, but not particularly for going fast -- and to me, going fast is a key component of sports driving.
Nobody is saying that an AWD car cannot be driven fast and in a manner that can beat many RWD cars over the same stretch, I know for sure that on a bumpy or slippy B road my S3 would show a clean pair of heals to my 130i but again that is not the point here! What is being said (and I should remind you, widely acknowledge by pretty much everyone in the car enthusiast community) is that the same stretch of road/track would be more enjoyable behind the wheel of RWD car with good dynamics.
If you find this hard to appreciate then maybe take up sailing or something.
I quick skim through his post history reveals a severe case of 'Audi fanboy', also as an American I suspect point and squirt tendencies. Apols to any US PHers who value driver involvement.
scherzkeks said:
Understeer is largely a function of how the vehicle is set up (which is also why last-gen BMW 1 series cars were just as notorious for understeering as any recent Audi on the track).
Understeer is also a sign that you have exceeded the limits of the setup and are either ham-fisting the thing, impatient with power application and steering inputs, or just flat out not driving clean lines. I have no problem "enjoying" AWD cars. I also like RWD, but not particularly for going fast -- and to me, going fast is a key component of sports driving.
Yep, understeer certainly is a function of how the car is set up, but saying it's only a problem when you exceed the limits of the car is sort of missing the point. If you drive any car comfortably within its limits it's going to be nice and stable, the whole thing that's entertaining about going fast round a track is controlling the car ON the limit, not below it. So basically a car that is neutral or oversteers on the limit is far more entertaining and involving than one that starts to understeer, even if that latter setup may actually get you round the corner slightly faster. Understeer is not the default sign that you've overdone it in a corner...if you go too fast in a well set up MX5 the back will let go before the front which to me is far more fun to control.Understeer is also a sign that you have exceeded the limits of the setup and are either ham-fisting the thing, impatient with power application and steering inputs, or just flat out not driving clean lines. I have no problem "enjoying" AWD cars. I also like RWD, but not particularly for going fast -- and to me, going fast is a key component of sports driving.
The more work you have to do on a trackday the better, going fast easily seems pointless when you're just there to have fun. Extreme example but look at it this way...if they could lay a scalextric style rail around the track so your car could slot onto it letting you pull 5g round the corners without even having to turn the wheel would that be more fun? Lap times would be immense but what's the point? I feel the same about things like ABS...sure you can probably lap quicker when you just have to stamp on the brakes as hard as you can but I'd far rather have to actually think about braking and apply a bit of skill.
E60M5 said:
The man sounds like he needs to move up to an M3 or M135i! Poor little 130i isn't really setup for heavy track abuse (despite mods). If you pound on it so hard, probably time for an M car or dedicated track rat (see MX5 or 944). Awesome little car though!
Not sure i agree, every M car is heavier worse on tires,pads, disks, every M engine is more stressed, will use more oil, comparing to an E46 M3 you also have the vanos issue and the boot floor cracking.Apart from suspension setup, which he has addressed, the M car offers nothing more in terms of track use.
I own a 130i M sport and they are a great car that can be frugal if needed a trip to cornwall with the family full of luggage showed 37 yes it was a steady drive but there was traffic as well.
Then again a good drive and it's single figures, mine has the bilstein set up with H&R roll bars and M3 bushes yet it rides far better than my old 330d M sport.
Great car that always shocks people as not many people know about them sounds great with the exhaust and intake.....
Then again a good drive and it's single figures, mine has the bilstein set up with H&R roll bars and M3 bushes yet it rides far better than my old 330d M sport.
Great car that always shocks people as not many people know about them
sounds great with the exhaust and intake.....T0MMY said:
Yep, understeer certainly is a function of how the car is set up, but saying it's only a problem when you exceed the limits of the car is sort of missing the point. If you drive any car comfortably within its limits it's going to be nice and stable, the whole thing that's entertaining about going fast round a track is controlling the car ON the limit, not below it. So basically a car that is neutral or oversteers on the limit is far more entertaining and involving than one that starts to understeer, even if that latter setup may actually get you round the corner slightly faster. Understeer is not the default sign that you've overdone it in a corner...if you go too fast in a well set up MX5 the back will let go before the front which to me is far more fun to control.
The more work you have to do on a trackday the better, going fast easily seems pointless when you're just there to have fun. Extreme example but look at it this way...if they could lay a scalextric style rail around the track so your car could slot onto it letting you pull 5g round the corners without even having to turn the wheel would that be more fun? Lap times would be immense but what's the point? I feel the same about things like ABS...sure you can probably lap quicker when you just have to stamp on the brakes as hard as you can but I'd far rather have to actually think about braking and apply a bit of skill.
To drive fast and clean, one must drive within the cars limits, which is a key challenge when driving -- getting faster while keeping the car under control. From a performance perspective, over and understeer are undesirable, slow, and inefficient and are brought about (when not intentionally introduced) by driver error. This is so basic that it should not need discussion.The more work you have to do on a trackday the better, going fast easily seems pointless when you're just there to have fun. Extreme example but look at it this way...if they could lay a scalextric style rail around the track so your car could slot onto it letting you pull 5g round the corners without even having to turn the wheel would that be more fun? Lap times would be immense but what's the point? I feel the same about things like ABS...sure you can probably lap quicker when you just have to stamp on the brakes as hard as you can but I'd far rather have to actually think about braking and apply a bit of skill.
But let's be honest, the only reason it is being discussed is because a few of you get pissed off any time someone points out the fact that AWD is typically superior from a strict performance perspective. So now we talk about "fun."
DoubleSix said:
P1H said:
Duffman83 said:
Hi P1H,
Cracking choice on the LE. Im looking to move into one of these two in the next year. One question though, how lemony is the lemony interior?
Hi, thanks! The answer is a lot less lemony than it might appear on some pictures. It is quite a non-offensive shade and to my surprise it actually fitted very well with the overall look of the car. Cracking choice on the LE. Im looking to move into one of these two in the next year. One question though, how lemony is the lemony interior?
P1H said:
This is the Limited Edition model. I put a deposit down on a mint condition model identical to this on Saturday. I'm very pleased with my choice!
Yeah it just looks like Crema
scherzkeks said:
T0MMY said:
Yep, understeer certainly is a function of how the car is set up, but saying it's only a problem when you exceed the limits of the car is sort of missing the point. If you drive any car comfortably within its limits it's going to be nice and stable, the whole thing that's entertaining about going fast round a track is controlling the car ON the limit, not below it. So basically a car that is neutral or oversteers on the limit is far more entertaining and involving than one that starts to understeer, even if that latter setup may actually get you round the corner slightly faster. Understeer is not the default sign that you've overdone it in a corner...if you go too fast in a well set up MX5 the back will let go before the front which to me is far more fun to control.
The more work you have to do on a trackday the better, going fast easily seems pointless when you're just there to have fun. Extreme example but look at it this way...if they could lay a scalextric style rail around the track so your car could slot onto it letting you pull 5g round the corners without even having to turn the wheel would that be more fun? Lap times would be immense but what's the point? I feel the same about things like ABS...sure you can probably lap quicker when you just have to stamp on the brakes as hard as you can but I'd far rather have to actually think about braking and apply a bit of skill.
To drive fast and clean, one must drive within the cars limits, which is a key challenge when driving -- getting faster while keeping the car under control. From a performance perspective, over and understeer are undesirable, slow, and inefficient and are brought about (when not intentionally introduced) by driver error. This is so basic that it should not need discussion.The more work you have to do on a trackday the better, going fast easily seems pointless when you're just there to have fun. Extreme example but look at it this way...if they could lay a scalextric style rail around the track so your car could slot onto it letting you pull 5g round the corners without even having to turn the wheel would that be more fun? Lap times would be immense but what's the point? I feel the same about things like ABS...sure you can probably lap quicker when you just have to stamp on the brakes as hard as you can but I'd far rather have to actually think about braking and apply a bit of skill.
But let's be honest, the only reason it is being discussed is because a few of you get pissed off any time someone points out the fact that AWD is typically superior from a strict performance perspective. So now we talk about "fun."
Which brings us back to the point another poster made earlier; should technology allow faster lap times at the expense of driver involvement is that automatically a good thing? For most of us the answer is 'no' as we enjoy other aspects of the drive.
scherzkeks said:
But let's be honest, the only reason it is being discussed is because a few of you get pissed off any time someone points out the fact that AWD is typically superior from a strict performance perspective. So now we talk about "fun."
If AWD is typically superior, why is an M3 quicker than a RS5 in the wet when Stig drives it http://www.topgear.com/uk/videos/jeremy-drives-the... Would you have done a better job than him? He clearly felt that having the rear end out actually helped the car turn in otherwise he would have stayed within the limits of lat grip. On the other hand, there wasn't much he could do about the typical Audi's understeer.If you really want to argue the point about AWD vs RWD (not that there is any point), then at least refer to proper torsen cars, not Haldex equipped cars.
scherzkeks said:
But let's be honest, the only reason it is being discussed is because a few of you get pissed off any time someone points out the fact that AWD is typically superior from a strict performance perspective. So now we talk about "fun."
Oh yes, all the very fastest forms of Motorsport are 4WD 
I think you're the only one here who believes that a well setup RWD car isn't either as quick OR as much fun as 4WD. As for the S3, don't be silly.
Thanks.
scherzkeks said:
To drive fast and clean, one must drive within the cars limits, which is a key challenge when driving -- getting faster while keeping the car under control. From a performance perspective, over and understeer are undesirable, slow, and inefficient and are brought about (when not intentionally introduced) by driver error. This is so basic that it should not need discussion.
But let's be honest, the only reason it is being discussed is because a few of you get pissed off any time someone points out the fact that AWD is typically superior from a strict performance perspective. So now we talk about "fun."
I have to disagree there...if you're driving within the limits of the car you won't be as quick as someone driving it right on the limit and nor will you be having as much fun. If you're not constantly making minor corrections through the corner you're not going as fast as you could be.But let's be honest, the only reason it is being discussed is because a few of you get pissed off any time someone points out the fact that AWD is typically superior from a strict performance perspective. So now we talk about "fun."
And I don't see why you find it so odd to talk about "fun", given that is presumably why you bought a sporty car. Referring back to my example...would you enjoy going round a track on rails? Fun is everything, not the actual speed you're carrying, although having said that I think some people would rather be overtaking lots of people on a trackday without really trying rather than having to employ considerable skill to take something less capable right to its limits. Each to their own and if you're in the former camp then fair enough.
T0MMY said:
I have to disagree there...if you're driving within the limits of the car you won't be as quick as someone driving it right on the limit and nor will you be having as much fun. If you're not constantly making minor corrections through the corner you're not going as fast as you could be.
And I don't see why you find it so odd to talk about "fun", given that is presumably why you bought a sporty car. Referring back to my example...would you enjoy going round a track on rails? Fun is everything, not the actual speed you're carrying, although having said that I think some people would rather be overtaking lots of people on a trackday without really trying rather than having to employ considerable skill to take something less capable right to its limits. Each to their own and if you're in the former camp then fair enough.
And I don't see why you find it so odd to talk about "fun", given that is presumably why you bought a sporty car. Referring back to my example...would you enjoy going round a track on rails? Fun is everything, not the actual speed you're carrying, although having said that I think some people would rather be overtaking lots of people on a trackday without really trying rather than having to employ considerable skill to take something less capable right to its limits. Each to their own and if you're in the former camp then fair enough.
Driving a vehicle's beyond its limits is inefficient and slow. If it's happening unintentionally, then the driver should work on improving his technique. If a car is under or oversteering then the driver has overstepped the limits.
And I don't find it odd to talk about having fun. No, I would not enjoy going around a track on rails -- because that would ask nothing of the driver. Sliding around has its place, but I get more pleasure from honing my lines and taking (as best I can) my car up to its limits in a controlled way, which is pretty much the only way to drive fast, and is critical for racing.
ks. Thanks for derailing the thread about the 130i with your clueless nonsense.
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