RE: Vettel: Tell Me I'm Wrong
Discussion
SonicHedgeHog said:
For me two reasons.
1. His success has come mostly as a result of the car and screwing the universally popular Mark Webber.
2. There is no competition. It makes for boring racing. The top drivers are all within 1% of one another in terms of ability and yet Vettel is able to create huge leads in only a few laps. That can only be down to the car. Boring, boring, boring.
Hmmm, "no competition" - how many teams / champions does Seb have to beat to prove his class? Remeber that first win fair and square in a Torro Rosso FFS at Monza in the wet!1. His success has come mostly as a result of the car and screwing the universally popular Mark Webber.
2. There is no competition. It makes for boring racing. The top drivers are all within 1% of one another in terms of ability and yet Vettel is able to create huge leads in only a few laps. That can only be down to the car. Boring, boring, boring.
And the car is superior - but only in he hands of one RB driver - the other isnt up to the job, hence my issue with "universally popular MW". Having actually met them both several times rather than read about them or seen them on TV. SB = Witty, jocular fellow, MW = arrogant & moody but much better at PR
Kimi = crap at PR and the fans love him. Multi 21 and the finger probably explain the sentiment but he is a class act
Three things - Vettel is a brilliant driver but agree with earlier comments that he's either crowing or sulking. Let's face it though, that's the same as Hamilton, Alonso et al
Secondly, F1 is becoming more and more technical with less emphasis on the individual drivers - hence why people call it 'boring'. This has been happening for years now, realistically since Senna's crash and the ensuing changes in safety. Having one driver win everything whether it's Schumacher, Vettel or anyone else just turns the casual observer off.
Finally, the Brits love an underdog and hate an out-and-out winner...until they finish their career and end up being on telly with their game-face turned off. McEnroe, Steve Davis, Schumacher, Becker. All despised until they make us all gooey by being able to laugh at themselves. Then we're all "yeah xyz was brilliant in his / her day". Vettel will end up like this. You never know, stick Fergie on Have I Got News For You and we'll all love him. Maybe not.
Secondly, F1 is becoming more and more technical with less emphasis on the individual drivers - hence why people call it 'boring'. This has been happening for years now, realistically since Senna's crash and the ensuing changes in safety. Having one driver win everything whether it's Schumacher, Vettel or anyone else just turns the casual observer off.
Finally, the Brits love an underdog and hate an out-and-out winner...until they finish their career and end up being on telly with their game-face turned off. McEnroe, Steve Davis, Schumacher, Becker. All despised until they make us all gooey by being able to laugh at themselves. Then we're all "yeah xyz was brilliant in his / her day". Vettel will end up like this. You never know, stick Fergie on Have I Got News For You and we'll all love him. Maybe not.
The Multi 21 incident is no more or less controversial than the 'Fernando is faster than you' incident. At the moment though Alonso's popularity is up because he is pushing a car into race postions it has no business being in and being relatively exciting to watch in the process. He also has a good self depricating social media presence for those that follow him on twitter and instagram.
Vettel however comes over as being the class swot, yes he's the best but no one really likes him. It's pretty clear that with the move to Pirelli tyres he did more homework to understand the data on them on the other drivers and it shows, he's won evey title on them so far.
The other point about Vettel, if this were a German website, would we be having this discussion?
Vettel however comes over as being the class swot, yes he's the best but no one really likes him. It's pretty clear that with the move to Pirelli tyres he did more homework to understand the data on them on the other drivers and it shows, he's won evey title on them so far.
The other point about Vettel, if this were a German website, would we be having this discussion?
heebeegeetee said:
Astonishing, barking, internet-type comments throughout this thread.
Vettel is a winner, which goes against the British trait of admiring greatness. Britain is a nation of losers, prefers losers and warms to losers.
The lad is fast, determined and down to earth. It takes a lot of waffle to conjur up a reason not to like him, but it almost always says more about the speaker than the recipient of meaningless vitriol or criticism.
I agree with you, it's not Vettel's fault he is a winner & it's not his fault the competition aren't up to beating him, his rivals need to look in the mirror & say why aren't we good enough? Vettel is a winner, which goes against the British trait of admiring greatness. Britain is a nation of losers, prefers losers and warms to losers.
The lad is fast, determined and down to earth. It takes a lot of waffle to conjur up a reason not to like him, but it almost always says more about the speaker than the recipient of meaningless vitriol or criticism.
I wish him well with his success & he deserves the accolades that come his way imo.
The Finger. Also, it might be a generational thing, whereby athletes have to tell everyone that their accomplishments tell the world "who they are". Nobody gives a toss who you are, just what you do.
As mentioned already, he is genuinely funny when interviewed away from the track, but extremely confident - and why wouldn't he be?.
As mentioned already, he is genuinely funny when interviewed away from the track, but extremely confident - and why wouldn't he be?.
robinessex said:
I'll start liking (and watching) F1, and admire the driver(s), when the cars allow a driver to take it by the scruff of it's neck, and drive the b
ks off it. For the whole race.
^^^Thisks off it. For the whole race.Going a bit OT now but with all this tyre management nonsense it seems that a race can be driven and won easily without even breaking a sweat these days, and artificial 'excitement' has to be introduced in the form of KERS and DRS
M666 EVO said:
I have never in all my years seen so many wrong points of view on PH
I have followed Vettel for about 6 years now, back when he was wildly eratic all the way through to now when he is dominant. Why is he so good? Because he is extremely focused, has a great team behind him and is an epic driver. Simple. Why do people need to dissect it as if its not justified?
Hammy is a little spoilt child if anything. Webber is old now. Kimi is dull as dishwater, whoever said he has character has a severe problem. Ferrari just aren't as good as RedBull and Button is just OK.
Vettel stands above the rest by a country mile. FACT. And always has done, even when he was finding his feet...
I am not German BTW ha ha
A point of view can't be wrong.I have followed Vettel for about 6 years now, back when he was wildly eratic all the way through to now when he is dominant. Why is he so good? Because he is extremely focused, has a great team behind him and is an epic driver. Simple. Why do people need to dissect it as if its not justified?
Hammy is a little spoilt child if anything. Webber is old now. Kimi is dull as dishwater, whoever said he has character has a severe problem. Ferrari just aren't as good as RedBull and Button is just OK.
Vettel stands above the rest by a country mile. FACT. And always has done, even when he was finding his feet...
I am not German BTW ha ha
I don't subscribe to the booing either, but I can see why people don't like him much. He reminds me of the irksome 'office-boy-got-lucky' who ends up in a position that's more deserved by others because he blew hot air up the right arses while the others just worked hard. Don't get me wrong, I don't doubt that he works hard, but there's always this sneaking suspicion that his car is just that little bit faster and more reliable than Mark's and that he's just that little bit luckier. Horner comes across as smarmy and biased - even after the Turkey incident which was clearly Vettel's fault the most Horner could do was to apportion equal blame to the two of his drivers.
Okay, I know you don't win four world championships by luck alone, but he has a clear technical advantage which, if removed, would leave him being toyed with, like an exhausted mouse between two cats, by Alonso and Hamilton.
I don't mind the finger - no one complained about Schumacher's leap or Mo Farah's or Usain Bolt's antics either, for that matter. Showmanship is good, and fun. But he does need to learn some humility. He's fast, he's talented and he's lucky. With maturity he might become likeable too.
Okay, I know you don't win four world championships by luck alone, but he has a clear technical advantage which, if removed, would leave him being toyed with, like an exhausted mouse between two cats, by Alonso and Hamilton.
I don't mind the finger - no one complained about Schumacher's leap or Mo Farah's or Usain Bolt's antics either, for that matter. Showmanship is good, and fun. But he does need to learn some humility. He's fast, he's talented and he's lucky. With maturity he might become likeable too.
RSoovy4 said:
He's the Ed Milliband of racing.
He buttf cked his team mate on Multi 21.
That's the hallmark of a real tosspot. As is accusing other teams of "hanging their balls in the pool on Fridays".
Arrogant little tit.
His team mate is a cock who deserves everything he has received and not received.He buttf cked his team mate on Multi 21.
That's the hallmark of a real tosspot. As is accusing other teams of "hanging their balls in the pool on Fridays".
Arrogant little tit.
When people say 'multi 21', I assume they mean the entire response, not just the fact he passed on track?
For me the passing on track was one thing, but to then claim he 'didn't understand' when he saw the public response and then the next week to change his tact completely to 'I would do the same again' is what did it for me. Arrogant tosser.
For me the passing on track was one thing, but to then claim he 'didn't understand' when he saw the public response and then the next week to change his tact completely to 'I would do the same again' is what did it for me. Arrogant tosser.
Sexual Chocolate said:
All F1 drivers are hugely talented even Max Chilton compared to us mere mortals. However Webber doesn't get the same breaks as Vettel. The odd dodgy repremand, 3 stoping, KERS issues and diffrences in wings 
So even though they drive for the same time you can't compare them like for like IMHO as they have different strategies and setups. Does Seb set his car up? Yeah he probably does but he does get the breaks, upgrades or whatever that Mark simply doesn't. Guess thats the downside of being a number 2 driver.
If Vettel can have the same success in a lesser car then I will admitt that he is a GREAT driver, possibly one of the best, but until point I and many others will always be questioning if its the car or the driver.
IHMO you give the best kit to the best driver (especially if you only have one of them) - plus if Seb can provide the kind of technical feedback they need to understand the performance of the part and keep building better ones then thats also a no brainer. So even though they drive for the same time you can't compare them like for like IMHO as they have different strategies and setups. Does Seb set his car up? Yeah he probably does but he does get the breaks, upgrades or whatever that Mark simply doesn't. Guess thats the downside of being a number 2 driver.If Vettel can have the same success in a lesser car then I will admitt that he is a GREAT driver, possibly one of the best, but until point I and many others will always be questioning if its the car or the driver.
Not sure that having the same success in a lesser car proves anything. Did Senna win world champs in a lesser car? Did Prost? - Now I admit the sport is immensely different now to then but talent is talent, put real, special talent in a good car and you get dominance (and the car keeps getting better and better) - based on having to prove yourself in a lesser card JB must rank among the greatest drivers of all time :0)
VladD said:
Youjutsusha said:
There is the other thing of seeing him screw over his team mate Aussie Mark Webber over and over...
Apart from Multi 21, when has Seb personally screwed Webber as opposed to Red Bull doing it (i.e. the front wing change at Silverstone)?For me the dislike seems to boil down to the agressive finger, Multi 21, the radio garbage after a win amongst other things. I can understand that on a slowdown lap he is on a high, hence the radio comments, but doesn't this just show his true personality?
Remember Alonso when he was winning with Renault in 2005/6. He used to put 1 then 2 then 3 fingers up as he rached up the wins through the year. This was never seen as agressive due to the way he did it. Subtle differences make the difference!
Find him irritating or not (I personally don't particularly given Multi 21, perceived arrogance in front of the camera, finger etc), he will want, as any of us would, want to be seen as a deserving chamption. Most are not sure about this not because of his annoying habits, but because of the 'Newey effect'.
While contractually it may be tough, I would love to see Vettel, Alonso, Hamilton, Kimi, Button (actually, all of them) fight it out for 1 race in the same cars.
Just imagine a Bernie backed, 2011 'same car' line up (as much as would be possible for the top 5 anyway), race that was out of the F1 calendar, which all drivers have to pay to compete in solely at their discretion 9sort the men from the boys), that all revenues over cost went to a deserving charity... Now that would be awesome, and something!
If Vettel really wants to put doubters at rest, maybe he could push for something like this, possibly prove himself a real champion, do something for a worthy cause and probably gain a few popularity points amoungst fans as well.
OK - sorry all - I guess I am just dreaming...
While contractually it may be tough, I would love to see Vettel, Alonso, Hamilton, Kimi, Button (actually, all of them) fight it out for 1 race in the same cars.
Just imagine a Bernie backed, 2011 'same car' line up (as much as would be possible for the top 5 anyway), race that was out of the F1 calendar, which all drivers have to pay to compete in solely at their discretion 9sort the men from the boys), that all revenues over cost went to a deserving charity... Now that would be awesome, and something!
If Vettel really wants to put doubters at rest, maybe he could push for something like this, possibly prove himself a real champion, do something for a worthy cause and probably gain a few popularity points amoungst fans as well.
OK - sorry all - I guess I am just dreaming...
kenno78 said:
Multi 21.
This... but with a proviso. Think about the list of team mates to those drivers that Chris wrote about. Few command the affection that people have for Webber. He should have won a World Championship. He is seen by many as the victim of a Red Bull machine intent on strangling him as much as promoting Seb. Helmut Marko is as much responsible for Vettel's suffering as the man himself.If Multi 21 had happened to Irvine or Salo or Massa (pre-Hungary) there wouldn't have been the same sense of indignity that Seb has mustered shafting Webber. Some genuine contrition from that 'side' of the garage would have gone a long way. It must be hard for the Webber camp to keep motivated and it will be interesting to see how Ricciardo's arrival will affect things.
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