RE: Vettel: Tell Me I'm Wrong
Discussion
Durzel said:
MichelV said:
I like Vettel. The rest need to become more motivated. Less distracted by clothing, watches, women.
Yes he has a flat personality on tv. Kimi is better at that. Characterful man.
He should work on that, but I guess he couldn't give a toss.
I would hire him in my company in a heartbeat.
Michel
I'm mostly in agreement with this.Yes he has a flat personality on tv. Kimi is better at that. Characterful man.
He should work on that, but I guess he couldn't give a toss.
I would hire him in my company in a heartbeat.
Michel
I guess it comes down to whether people earnestly believe the drivers should be putting on a show for our benefit, or trying to win races to generate more money for themselves and their employers. You don't have to be popular to be successful.
Mark is a "nice guy" but he is middling in the same car. He is manifestly not as fast as Vettel. So many people seem to be striving constantly for any scrap of conjecture that would explain why Vettel can't be as good as his results suggest. "It's the car", "put him in a lesser car and he'd fail", etc. Irrespective of Newey's supremacy Vettel has some serious talent - no one can do that many laps with that kind of consistency week after week and not be worthy of the hype. The car may be better than the pack but it doesn't drive itself.
Can anyone really blame RBR for backing the winning horse? Their fortunes are entirely in his hands - Webber hasn't been in with a shout of winning the WDC for some time, and probsbly never was.
I note also that Alonso and Hamilton (fan favourites it seems) are just as mercenary when they need to be, and often both pouting constantly about their fortunes. If you haven't got that narcissistic ego-driven extra 5% then you're battling for honours in the midfield. The big difference I think between Alonso and Vettel is that it is Ferrari that have overtly manufactured better conditions for their No. 1 driver - people seem to forget the whole Massa gearbox incident, and I don't recall Alonso protesting about it. I thought it was remarkable that no one seemed fussed that Ferrari used Massa to drag Alonso around the circuit at Monza - if that had been Webber & Vettel the forum would've exploded.
It's kinda sad really because out of the car Vettel seems like a pretty affable chap. He keeps his private life private, he doesn't whine about his contemporaries in the media every 5 minutes like Alonso and Hamilton seem to do, he does his talking on the track.
Quite honestly I think a lot of it is the perverse British mentality of hating success.
Edited by Durzel on Thursday 17th October 12:14
We have a problem with success in this country. Also I don't think we should put such a large focus on multi 21. People do things like this all the time, it just so happens that he is in spotlight. Webber is an okay driver but Seb is much better.
I also think that putting him in a different car will not make his success wain, he is talented and can get the most from his environment, that's why he is number one.
IMO you are wrong.
Firstly a few points to pick up on:
1. Have you watched tennis in the last few years? Federer has not been winning everyhting. Heard of Murray, Nadal, Djokovic?
2. Please don't bring xenophobia into it. You are better than that. It automatically drags you down to the level of the PC brigade.
As to the actual question, IMO what happened in Malaysia has more than a little to do with it. To me, what he did was unforgivable. As was the way he acted after the event. On top of that, go and have a look at his comments about Bruno Senna and Ayrton Senna after the Sao Paolo GP in 2012. The phrase "no class" would be putting it politely. Downright out of order on most days.
I agree that the monotomy and the fact he has, on balance, over the last 4 years had the fastest car does not help his position. But that is not his fault. It is the fault of the rest. But what I am saying is that it does not help his position when added to his other characteristics (see above, plus a few others (not all of which I agree with) like the finger, the luck, the silly voices/whooping at the end of a race).
He is a very good driver no doubt. I just want to see him compete for and/or win a title in an inferior car and then I will rank him up there with the very best.
Firstly a few points to pick up on:
1. Have you watched tennis in the last few years? Federer has not been winning everyhting. Heard of Murray, Nadal, Djokovic?
2. Please don't bring xenophobia into it. You are better than that. It automatically drags you down to the level of the PC brigade.
As to the actual question, IMO what happened in Malaysia has more than a little to do with it. To me, what he did was unforgivable. As was the way he acted after the event. On top of that, go and have a look at his comments about Bruno Senna and Ayrton Senna after the Sao Paolo GP in 2012. The phrase "no class" would be putting it politely. Downright out of order on most days.
I agree that the monotomy and the fact he has, on balance, over the last 4 years had the fastest car does not help his position. But that is not his fault. It is the fault of the rest. But what I am saying is that it does not help his position when added to his other characteristics (see above, plus a few others (not all of which I agree with) like the finger, the luck, the silly voices/whooping at the end of a race).
He is a very good driver no doubt. I just want to see him compete for and/or win a title in an inferior car and then I will rank him up there with the very best.
Anyone who's aware of the exaggerated example that WWF sets in the way that the participants are turned in to caricatures by the PR machine of the (hesitates) 'sport' surely has to understand that the same thing happens with any sport in which money is a factor. You don't truly know these people unless you go for a drink with them and all the opinions that these people are 'good', 'arrogant', 'an arse' and so on is purely based on snapshots of what you see on TV and what you read in the press. It's cultivated nonsense designed so that you choose a favorite over others and buy merchandise or buy Redbull over Monster.
Vettel might phone his mum every night and Button might go home and kick his dog for all you know.
Vettel might phone his mum every night and Button might go home and kick his dog for all you know.
Helmut Marko has alot to answer for. He effectively runs the team. In an "Austrian" team (apart from the funding is any actual part of the team Austrian?) a German speaker has been pushed to the fore; this would have happened irrespective of his team mate. People are sick of Christian Horner always defending the "chosen one". Vettel in post-race mode comes accross as an arrogant little child. Whenever things aren't going his way the toys go out of the pram. F1 is supposed to be a TEAM sport; "Multi 21" showed in stark clarity that Vettel is anything but a team player.
Chris Harris said:
Which is odd because tennis fans never seem too bothered if Federer is winning everything.
No ones gives a s
t about tennis that's why.Multi 21 isn't it though along with the finger, "YES! YES! YES! AND YES! AGAIN!" it's a factor.
I struggle with Seb because on the one hand he seems a really nice, genuine almost humble person yet still with a competitive eye out of the car.
In the car and on the podium? Complete opposite. It's like an accountant collecting wins. You feel each win means nothing to him just the records which are meaningly anyway since we now have 20+ races and 25 points for a win.
We like our winners to win with style, to feel like they've earned it. Witness Redgrave rowing his heart out, Chris Hoy edging half a wheel ahead to win, Ben Ainslie turning around an 8-1 loss, last minute lunges for the winning goal.
Vettel's wins feel calculated almost artificial. There is no drama for first place in this seasons F1. Pirelli/FIA have a lot to answer for here in creating tyres that degrade hugely whilst following/attacking other drivers.
2014 rules changing. Mercedes are supposed to have the best engine for 2014.
But who's going to win 2014? Vettel of course because Red Bull are phenomenal at adapting to change.
PS. I see Christian Horner coming in for a lot of stick. He's the best team manager in the pit lane and almost all other team managers in F1 could learn from him.
Edited by Agent Orange on Thursday 17th October 12:38
RSoovy4 said:
He's the Ed Milliband of racing.
He buttf cked his team mate on Multi 21.
That's the hallmark of a real tosspot. As is accusing other teams of "hanging their balls in the pool on Fridays".
Arrogant little tit.
Completely agree when he is put under any pressure he falls apart, look at that epic race in Canada when Button was catching him and Vettel just drove off the road. He buttf cked his team mate on Multi 21.
That's the hallmark of a real tosspot. As is accusing other teams of "hanging their balls in the pool on Fridays".
Arrogant little tit.
The Finger is bloody annoying and to call his car names, what is he 5.
Honestly, I don't mind Vettel but his wins are a little boring, he dominates! I just feel sorry for the Aussie who has been treated like the No 2 driver. I'll be keen to see how the new Aussie gets on. I would love it if he showed Vettel up, team battles are what we need, however I think the men at the top of Red Bull have too much of a crush on Vettel to make him look bad.
"Quite honestly I think a lot of it is the perverse British mentality of hating success"
Only flaw here is that Vettel is booed at GP's all across Europe (world?)- so I dont think its anything to do with "British people hating success"
It's the manner of the victories, IMO. We have an era of F1 that is sublimely rich in driver talent - up there with the 80's of Senna/Prost/Mansell, but the fan's arent getting to see Alonso, Raikonnen, Hamilton and Vettel slug it out week in week out because of the RBR dominance*. Not Vettel's fault at all, but......
Only flaw here is that Vettel is booed at GP's all across Europe (world?)- so I dont think its anything to do with "British people hating success"
It's the manner of the victories, IMO. We have an era of F1 that is sublimely rich in driver talent - up there with the 80's of Senna/Prost/Mansell, but the fan's arent getting to see Alonso, Raikonnen, Hamilton and Vettel slug it out week in week out because of the RBR dominance*. Not Vettel's fault at all, but......
- Incidentially if this was the Bridgestone era and the teams were'nt conserving tyres on every lap, I think we'd be watching the RB cars winning by 60 seconds every weekend, the car is that good.
I have no strong opinion on Vettel's character but ......
Vettel and Newey have sussed out better than anyone how to fully exploit the opportunities to win races in an era where F1 has had -
1) Stable engine specs (i.e. no big HP advantage and greater reliability)
2) Limited Aero spec changes which also severely restrict performance when following another car closely (reduced down force = reduced corner speed = higher tyre degridation etc.)
3) Reduced pit stop errors (removal of re-fueling)
4) Ability to influence tyre construction/longevity
They worked out very quickly that the key was to get to the front of the grid with a higher downforce set up (lower top speed), blast out of the blocks and then sit at the front in clean air and let the rest run in dirty air reducing each other's peformance.
The final key has been to build a team, and therefore a car, around a single person, his style of driving and so maximise the potential for success and exploite the rules to the maximum. This, as described in the main piece and several posts, is the Schumacher blueprint, just ask Baracello how difficult it was to drive a Schumi car and how Nico Rosberg felt when Shumi chnages the wheel base in the Mercedes to suit his style (pointy front end, loose rear end hence the tyre degradation issues ?).
The icing on the cake is a driver who is talented, has exploited his talents and has the innate qualities for all F1 drivers - competitive to the extreme, huge self belief (read ego), less respect for safe limits than most people and self motivation to improve themselves, the team and the equipment at all costs. Granted Hamilton, Alonso, Raikonnen etc. has all of these in similar measures but have not had the foresight or possibly the backup to fully exploit them over an extended period of time.
Lets see what next year brings and how quickly the top drivers and teams can mould/exploit the new regulations. I would still bet on the Vettel/Newey combo getting there first though.
Vettel and Newey have sussed out better than anyone how to fully exploit the opportunities to win races in an era where F1 has had -
1) Stable engine specs (i.e. no big HP advantage and greater reliability)
2) Limited Aero spec changes which also severely restrict performance when following another car closely (reduced down force = reduced corner speed = higher tyre degridation etc.)
3) Reduced pit stop errors (removal of re-fueling)
4) Ability to influence tyre construction/longevity
They worked out very quickly that the key was to get to the front of the grid with a higher downforce set up (lower top speed), blast out of the blocks and then sit at the front in clean air and let the rest run in dirty air reducing each other's peformance.
The final key has been to build a team, and therefore a car, around a single person, his style of driving and so maximise the potential for success and exploite the rules to the maximum. This, as described in the main piece and several posts, is the Schumacher blueprint, just ask Baracello how difficult it was to drive a Schumi car and how Nico Rosberg felt when Shumi chnages the wheel base in the Mercedes to suit his style (pointy front end, loose rear end hence the tyre degradation issues ?).
The icing on the cake is a driver who is talented, has exploited his talents and has the innate qualities for all F1 drivers - competitive to the extreme, huge self belief (read ego), less respect for safe limits than most people and self motivation to improve themselves, the team and the equipment at all costs. Granted Hamilton, Alonso, Raikonnen etc. has all of these in similar measures but have not had the foresight or possibly the backup to fully exploit them over an extended period of time.
Lets see what next year brings and how quickly the top drivers and teams can mould/exploit the new regulations. I would still bet on the Vettel/Newey combo getting there first though.
Astonishing, barking, internet-type comments throughout this thread.
Vettel is a winner, which goes against the British trait of admiring greatness. Britain is a nation of losers, prefers losers and warms to losers.
The lad is fast, determined and down to earth. It takes a lot of waffle to conjur up a reason not to like him, but it almost always says more about the speaker than the recipient of meaningless vitriol or criticism.
Vettel is a winner, which goes against the British trait of admiring greatness. Britain is a nation of losers, prefers losers and warms to losers.
The lad is fast, determined and down to earth. It takes a lot of waffle to conjur up a reason not to like him, but it almost always says more about the speaker than the recipient of meaningless vitriol or criticism.
For me the multi 21 incident and the apparent extra reliability his car gets over his team mates are the two main reasons I'm not at all a fan of his. However I finally got around to seeing Rush last night and got a sense that the way Lauda was portrayed in film as being utterly focussed and more concerned with being the best driver.
He certainly must have a sackful of talent to be where he is and the extra bit over the others may not be down to raw pace but absolute faith in his car and the confidence that comes from being so dominant.
He certainly must have a sackful of talent to be where he is and the extra bit over the others may not be down to raw pace but absolute faith in his car and the confidence that comes from being so dominant.
It's been said a few times on here about Kimi Raikkonen being a personality, but when he first came into F1, fk me he was tedious.
I don't really agree with team orders but I guess it's just one of those things. Mark Webber should have taken a bit of advice from Damon Hill when he was leading in a Jordan at a very wet Spa some years ago. I think Eddie Jordan got on the radio & told Damon that Ralf was gaining on him very fast so let him past. Damon basically told him he'd knock him off the track if he came near him. I think Eddie Jordan told Ralf to slow down as Damon was leading
k me he was tedious.I don't really agree with team orders but I guess it's just one of those things. Mark Webber should have taken a bit of advice from Damon Hill when he was leading in a Jordan at a very wet Spa some years ago. I think Eddie Jordan got on the radio & told Damon that Ralf was gaining on him very fast so let him past. Damon basically told him he'd knock him off the track if he came near him. I think Eddie Jordan told Ralf to slow down as Damon was leading
heebeegeetee said:
Astonishing, barking, internet-type comments throughout this thread.
Vettel is a winner, which goes against the British trait of admiring greatness. Britain is a nation of losers, prefers losers and warms to losers.
The lad is fast, determined and down to earth. It takes a lot of waffle to conjur up a reason not to like him, but it almost always says more about the speaker than the recipient of meaningless vitriol or criticism.
Sorry, but that's just rubbish.Vettel is a winner, which goes against the British trait of admiring greatness. Britain is a nation of losers, prefers losers and warms to losers.
The lad is fast, determined and down to earth. It takes a lot of waffle to conjur up a reason not to like him, but it almost always says more about the speaker than the recipient of meaningless vitriol or criticism.
What do most Brit's think of Winston Churchill, Nigel Mansell, Sir Steve Redgrave, Dame Kelly Holmes and Jessica Ennis?
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