RE: Vettel: Tell Me I'm Wrong
Discussion
Vaud said:
Vettel at the Autosport awards:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TJb9ra-7OU#t=448
Fun interview, worth a watch.
It is and this is the thing I find hardest to square with myself and it seems I'm not the only one. Vettel is quite clearly a nice and decent bloke. He's not a PR drone either and just a regular young lad with a great skill and in many ways should be a tonic for F1.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TJb9ra-7OU#t=448
Fun interview, worth a watch.
Why then when he puts on a helmet and sits in the Red Bull car do I not like him?!
Agent Orange said:
Vaud said:
Vettel at the Autosport awards:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TJb9ra-7OU#t=448
Fun interview, worth a watch.
It is and this is the thing I find hardest to square with myself and it seems I'm not the only one. Vettel is quite clearly a nice and decent bloke. He's not a PR drone either and just a regular young lad with a great skill and in many ways should be a tonic for F1.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TJb9ra-7OU#t=448
Fun interview, worth a watch.
Why then when he puts on a helmet and sits in the Red Bull car do I not like him?!
VladD said:
I think it's not him you/we don't like specifically, but his success rate. We're getting a bit fed up of one person dominating and making the sport a bit tedious. We're blaming him for our dissatisfaction with F1 and that translates into a bit of dislike subconciuosly. How many of us can say that we wouldn't swap places with him in a second though.
A reasoned point of view. Personally I like the guy, though I am not tribal and just enjoy watch the sport. i still get pleasure from watching someone at the absolute top of their game.And like the Ferrari and Schumacher years, it's the other teams job to catch up, not for Red Bull to slow down.
parabolica said:
BMW Sauber 06/07
Torro Rosso 07/08
Red Bull 09/-
The guy has changed more teams than Hamilton. Just sayin.
And the first race he had was to sit n for someone in Sauber, and immediately he scored points. kovaleinin who has years of experience and couldn't score a point n the much more competitive Lotus. Torro Rosso 07/08
Red Bull 09/-
The guy has changed more teams than Hamilton. Just sayin.
People say he can't overtake, but for the last 2 years it seems he's confident in passing every time. Mark on the other hand takes several laps if he can that is. Vettel isn't the most loved, but down the road, his critics will shutup from his performance on the track. But fir now, people want variety.
VladD said:
Agent Orange said:
It is and this is the thing I find hardest to square with myself and it seems I'm not the only one. Vettel is quite clearly a nice and decent bloke. He's not a PR drone either and just a regular young lad with a great skill and in many ways should be a tonic for F1.
Why then when he puts on a helmet and sits in the Red Bull car do I not like him?!
I think it's not him you/we don't like specifically, but his success rate. Why then when he puts on a helmet and sits in the Red Bull car do I not like him?!
This person is completely focused on winning, and that's true of many/most/all top performers in every sport, even every sphere of human activity. But they are not a pleasant person to view from the outside - almost pathological in intensity. I guess at least he can switch it on and off fairly quickly and easily.
See also Alonso, Lewis, Senna, Schuie etc etc etc. I think Damon and Jensen were more lucky (right car, right time, on top of great skills) than ruthless
Webber, in contrast, is somewhat "nice" both off and on the track... he's very very good, but not a world champion.
defblade said:
Whereas I think it's because when he sits in the car, the nice young lad disappears and a winning machine with no real concept of sportsmanship or gentlemanly conduct takes over. This person ignores orders he doesn't like and grants NOT A SINGLE INCH to anyone else as anysort of favour. Would it have killed him to let Webber win the last race, or at least slow a little ("My tires are going off, I'll have to back the pace off a bit") to allow them to cross the line just about together?
Do you really think Webber would have wanted that? He'd have been even more insulted than by multi21...Vaud said:
VladD said:
I think it's not him you/we don't like specifically, but his success rate. We're getting a bit fed up of one person dominating and making the sport a bit tedious. We're blaming him for our dissatisfaction with F1 and that translates into a bit of dislike subconciuosly. How many of us can say that we wouldn't swap places with him in a second though.
A reasoned point of view. Personally I like the guy, though I am not tribal and just enjoy watch the sport. i still get pleasure from watching someone at the absolute top of their game.And like the Ferrari and Schumacher years, it's the other teams job to catch up, not for Red Bull to slow down.
Also consider that when the Ferrari/Schumacher years were going on, every one and their dog was buying Ferrari merchandise. I don't see this happening with Redbull. Sure people hated Schumacher winning every race, but they loved how good a driver he was.
Time and time again, even on this petrol head forum, people talk of how average a driver he is, which simply isn't true.
His team mate who was one Mountain Bike injury away from a WDC has been nowhere near him, mixing with the top 5 other cars in most races. Yet people still view him as average, worse than that, that he must be cheating.
Vaud said:
defblade said:
Whereas I think it's because when he sits in the car, the nice young lad disappears and a winning machine with no real concept of sportsmanship or gentlemanly conduct takes over. This person ignores orders he doesn't like and grants NOT A SINGLE INCH to anyone else as anysort of favour. Would it have killed him to let Webber win the last race, or at least slow a little ("My tires are going off, I'll have to back the pace off a bit") to allow them to cross the line just about together?
Do you really think Webber would have wanted that? He'd have been even more insulted than by multi21...Efbe said:
it is a very good point.
Also consider that when the Ferrari/Schumacher years were going on, every one and their dog was buying Ferrari merchandise. I don't see this happening with Redbull. Sure people hated Schumacher winning every race, but they loved how good a driver he was.
Time and time again, even on this petrol head forum, people talk of how average a driver he is, which simply isn't true.
His team mate who was one Mountain Bike injury away from a WDC has been nowhere near him, mixing with the top 5 other cars in most races. Yet people still view him as average, worse than that, that he must be cheating.
I see more Redbull merchandising out side of the UK. But then Ferrari never used Schumacher much in UK advertising either; no need, the world is a big place. Redbull DO have lots of people buying product - which is better than merchandising as it's a regular revenue stream...Also consider that when the Ferrari/Schumacher years were going on, every one and their dog was buying Ferrari merchandise. I don't see this happening with Redbull. Sure people hated Schumacher winning every race, but they loved how good a driver he was.
Time and time again, even on this petrol head forum, people talk of how average a driver he is, which simply isn't true.
His team mate who was one Mountain Bike injury away from a WDC has been nowhere near him, mixing with the top 5 other cars in most races. Yet people still view him as average, worse than that, that he must be cheating.
I think he is an exceptional talent, as do most/all of the pit lane. It's his consistency as well as speed.
defblade said:
Vaud said:
defblade said:
Whereas I think it's because when he sits in the car, the nice young lad disappears and a winning machine with no real concept of sportsmanship or gentlemanly conduct takes over. This person ignores orders he doesn't like and grants NOT A SINGLE INCH to anyone else as anysort of favour. Would it have killed him to let Webber win the last race, or at least slow a little ("My tires are going off, I'll have to back the pace off a bit") to allow them to cross the line just about together?
Do you really think Webber would have wanted that? He'd have been even more insulted than by multi21...mikal83 said:
blade7 said:
Vettel in the car is what he is, the rest is clever management/PR. There's probably 4 or 5 current F1 drivers that would be all over him in the same car.
Wishful thinking...........IF there were, they'd be driving for RB wouldnt they!But they aren't.
defblade said:
I think Damon and Jensen were more lucky (right car, right time, on top of great skills) than ruthless
Ok I'll bite.... 
I have a near pathological desire to defend Jensen not least because I truly believe him to be the most skilful racing driver currently in F1. Damon finished 3rd (1993), 2nd (1994), 2nd (1995) and then won the WDC in 1996. If it weren't for Schumacher and Hill colliding (I'm being generous to Schumacher) in Australia in 1994 we'd be talking about a two time WDC.
This was during an era when he was up against Prost, Senna, Mansell, Schumacher and Hakkinen.
Jensen had awful cars pretty much his entire career. He made moves to try and get the right one which upset many. When he finally got the car he deserved the team folded. People say he had the best car when he won. Has a driver ever won a WDC with the worst car on the grid? Regardless it was only the best car for the first half of the season and after the money ran out the other teams swarmed around the Brawn.
Barrichello crumbled, went in to a near emotional breakdown. Jensen kept his nerve to bag the WDC despite everyone else snapping at his heels with cars that were by now far superior to the Brawn.
Zero luck in Jensen's WDC.
Agent Orange said:
Ok I'll bite.... I have a near pathological desire to defend Jensen not least because I truly believe him to be the most skilful racing driver currently in F1.
I'll bite back - pure skill, on its own, does not make a winner. I have a near pathological desire to defend Jensen not least because I truly believe him to be the most skilful racing driver currently in F1. - You need versatility, something I think Jensen lacks - he's very sensitive to the car being 'just right' - compare his performances vs Hamilton when the car was strong for the circuit - he was as good as LH, vs the performances where the car was struggling - Hamilton out-drove the car while Jensen faded into the mid-field. Alonso's proved this in spades, and I'd say Vettel has too - his Toro Rosso win and his ability to bend himself to the apparently counter-intuitive way the current RB cars need to be driven.
- You need consistency - slightly different to versatility, but here I think Jensen does OK (as you say, he kept his head when Rubens dropped his), although he's not top-flight in that regard.
- You've got to have hunger - you've got to want it, and be prepared to fight for it. Jensen's too nice a guy - he lacks the 'killer instinct' that Hamilton and Vettel clearly have in a very raw way (and Grosjean!), and that Alonso's got in a more mature way.
In the right car on the right circuit, Jensen is as quick as anyone else in F1 (so I would argue is Webber though, and possibly Grosjean and Hulkenberg too). But he's not as 'rounded' as the top 4 (Alonso, Hamilton, Raikkonen, Vettel - pick your order)...which is why he'll never win another WDC.
havoc said:
I'll bite back - pure skill, on its own, does not make a winner.
I'd certainly agree that he lacks versatility and that appears to be exaggerated by a struggle to setup a car to his liking. Something he himself he said was a big problem when he first came to F1 and, from my arm chair, I don't see evidence that he's truly mastered that.I don't agree though that he lacks hunger. Jensen is a very well mannered a polite person but I don't believe that therefore precludes him of being hungry or lacking in killer instinct. Back in the early 2000 I did think he was a bit of a soft touch but from the latter half that decade I believe he's become a lot more focused and ruthless. Witness his Brazil drive to take the WDC and wet Canada.
In essence I agree with a lot of what you say but it does irk me when people dismiss Jensen's WDC due to pure luck or look to devalue it against other WDC.
In the right car on the right circuit, Jensen is as quick as anyone else in F1 (so I would argue is Webber though, and possibly Grosjean and Hulkenberg too). But he's not as 'rounded' as the top 4 (Alonso, Hamilton, Raikkonen, Vettel - pick your order)...which is why he'll never win another WDC.
Agent Orange said:
In the right car on the right circuit, Jensen is as quick as anyone else in F1 (so I would argue is Webber though, and possibly Grosjean and Hulkenberg too). But he's not as 'rounded' as the top 4 (Alonso, Hamilton, Raikkonen, Vettel - pick your order)...which is why he'll never win another WDC.
I agree completely. I think he struggles to drive around a problem car more than the above. He reminds me of Patrese in a way.Vaud said:
Agent Orange said:
In the right car on the right circuit, Jensen is as quick as anyone else in F1 (so I would argue is Webber though, and possibly Grosjean and Hulkenberg too). But he's not as 'rounded' as the top 4 (Alonso, Hamilton, Raikkonen, Vettel - pick your order)...which is why he'll never win another WDC.
I agree completely. I think he struggles to drive around a problem car more than the above. He reminds me of Patrese in a way.He's also had some handy team mates over the past years and not been embarrassed by any of them.
I mean, if we're going to link Jensen with Webber then Seb must be *massively* better and faster than Lewis.
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