RE: Vettel: Tell Me I'm Wrong
Discussion
LOJO said:
Because he is not just a bad loser, he is a poor winner too.
really? since when would the other competitors out there just accept that their counterpart is just better at the moment?http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/27087057
Did Hamilton not say that of Rosberg at Bahrain? That he was quicker?
Ultimately what else can you say? It's motorsport, the times are recorded!
I dislike Vettel quite a bit and I'm not really sure why. I think maybe it irks me a little that his stats will eventually put him up amongst the all time greats and I'm just not sure he quite deserves that accolade.
Personally I think Alonso has done the most to prove his greatness by dragging results out of mediocre cars. Hamilton has managed to compare himself directly to Alonso when they were both at McLaren and showed he could match him so he's up there for me too. I'm just not sure Vettel has done anything like that yet and as I understand it, few F1 insiders think he is actually better than FA or LH so it's a bit irritating that circumstances have conspired to put him in another league (on paper).
It'll be interesting to see how this season goes with Ricciardo. I'm sure Vettel will find his form eventually but I can't help finding the current situation a little damning for the idea that Vettel is really something special. Not sure his pre-F1 stats suggest that either actually.
Ultimately what else can you say? It's motorsport, the times are recorded!
I dislike Vettel quite a bit and I'm not really sure why. I think maybe it irks me a little that his stats will eventually put him up amongst the all time greats and I'm just not sure he quite deserves that accolade.
Personally I think Alonso has done the most to prove his greatness by dragging results out of mediocre cars. Hamilton has managed to compare himself directly to Alonso when they were both at McLaren and showed he could match him so he's up there for me too. I'm just not sure Vettel has done anything like that yet and as I understand it, few F1 insiders think he is actually better than FA or LH so it's a bit irritating that circumstances have conspired to put him in another league (on paper).
It'll be interesting to see how this season goes with Ricciardo. I'm sure Vettel will find his form eventually but I can't help finding the current situation a little damning for the idea that Vettel is really something special. Not sure his pre-F1 stats suggest that either actually.
T0MMY said:
Did Hamilton not say that of Rosberg at Bahrain? That he was quicker?
Ultimately what else can you say? It's motorsport, the times are recorded!
I dislike Vettel quite a bit and I'm not really sure why. I think maybe it irks me a little that his stats will eventually put him up amongst the all time greats and I'm just not sure he quite deserves that accolade.
Personally I think Alonso has done the most to prove his greatness by dragging results out of mediocre cars. Hamilton has managed to compare himself directly to Alonso when they were both at McLaren and showed he could match him so he's up there for me too. I'm just not sure Vettel has done anything like that yet and as I understand it, few F1 insiders think he is actually better than FA or LH so it's a bit irritating that circumstances have conspired to put him in another league (on paper).
It'll be interesting to see how this season goes with Ricciardo. I'm sure Vettel will find his form eventually but I can't help finding the current situation a little damning for the idea that Vettel is really something special. Not sure his pre-F1 stats suggest that either actually.
Thats pretty much where I am.Ultimately what else can you say? It's motorsport, the times are recorded!
I dislike Vettel quite a bit and I'm not really sure why. I think maybe it irks me a little that his stats will eventually put him up amongst the all time greats and I'm just not sure he quite deserves that accolade.
Personally I think Alonso has done the most to prove his greatness by dragging results out of mediocre cars. Hamilton has managed to compare himself directly to Alonso when they were both at McLaren and showed he could match him so he's up there for me too. I'm just not sure Vettel has done anything like that yet and as I understand it, few F1 insiders think he is actually better than FA or LH so it's a bit irritating that circumstances have conspired to put him in another league (on paper).
It'll be interesting to see how this season goes with Ricciardo. I'm sure Vettel will find his form eventually but I can't help finding the current situation a little damning for the idea that Vettel is really something special. Not sure his pre-F1 stats suggest that either actually.
T0MMY said:
Did Hamilton not say that of Rosberg at Bahrain? That he was quicker?
Ultimately what else can you say? It's motorsport, the times are recorded!
I dislike Vettel quite a bit and I'm not really sure why. I think maybe it irks me a little that his stats will eventually put him up amongst the all time greats and I'm just not sure he quite deserves that accolade.
Personally I think Alonso has done the most to prove his greatness by dragging results out of mediocre cars. Hamilton has managed to compare himself directly to Alonso when they were both at McLaren and showed he could match him so he's up there for me too. I'm just not sure Vettel has done anything like that yet and as I understand it, few F1 insiders think he is actually better than FA or LH so it's a bit irritating that circumstances have conspired to put him in another league (on paper).
It'll be interesting to see how this season goes with Ricciardo. I'm sure Vettel will find his form eventually but I can't help finding the current situation a little damning for the idea that Vettel is really something special. Not sure his pre-F1 stats suggest that either actually.
A bit devil's advocate here, but how do we know that Alonso has had mediocre cars? I'm looking for proof here rather than speculation. It's often quoted, but I've never really seen hard evidence for it.Ultimately what else can you say? It's motorsport, the times are recorded!
I dislike Vettel quite a bit and I'm not really sure why. I think maybe it irks me a little that his stats will eventually put him up amongst the all time greats and I'm just not sure he quite deserves that accolade.
Personally I think Alonso has done the most to prove his greatness by dragging results out of mediocre cars. Hamilton has managed to compare himself directly to Alonso when they were both at McLaren and showed he could match him so he's up there for me too. I'm just not sure Vettel has done anything like that yet and as I understand it, few F1 insiders think he is actually better than FA or LH so it's a bit irritating that circumstances have conspired to put him in another league (on paper).
It'll be interesting to see how this season goes with Ricciardo. I'm sure Vettel will find his form eventually but I can't help finding the current situation a little damning for the idea that Vettel is really something special. Not sure his pre-F1 stats suggest that either actually.
A lot of people will use Vettel's win in the Toro Rosso to validate his greatness and I'm not sure that drive counts for as much status as some people place on it. People say he dragged a lesser car to a win. No he didn't - he drove a good qualifying session and a near perfect race but it was in the best car at the time. The Toro Rosso wasn't some dog or back of the grid car.
From memory qualifying was wet and a bit of a lottery. Hamilton and others lost out due to going out too late in the session. Vettel qualified on pole - a great achievement arguably better than the race itself. However let's not forget Bourdais in the other Toro Rosso qualified in 4th and that despite struggling to keep the car on the track.
Due to the extremely wet qualifying and teams having gambled/made mistakes in when to run and on what tyres the grid was all over the place. The race itself started behind the safety car which took away the chance for faster cars to overtake Vettel at the start. For the first 10-15 laps Vettel was the only driver that could see where he was going and built up an easy 10 second lead. Bourdais started from the pit lane due to a gearbox issue.
Yet despite Bourdais starting right at the back and finishing a lap down he still set the second fastest lap of the race only beaten by Kimi. That year Kimi claimed 10 fastest laps - 7 more than anyone else. So the Toro Rosso was quick. And lets not forget Bourdais was a driver that couldn't handle an inexperienced team mate like Buemi and had his contract terminated early because Toro Rosso didn't think he was good enough.
Post race interview with Robert Kubica:
There is no secret now. Everybody realises that some cars are performing better in the wet than some others. Toro Rosso and Red Bull have always been strong in the wet. If we look at last year or two years ago, even if they were far behind us in the dry, in the wet they were just right there, and now in the last few races Toro Rosso have even become the third team in the dry conditions, or fourth, whatever, but very close, even in front of us sometimes. As soon as it starts raining they become the fastest and I really feel happy for the guys at Toro Rosso. I know many of the people there and they really did a great job and they deserve it.
So there is no doubt that Vettel drove a perfect race on Sunday and completely deserves the praise he received for the win. It was text book with no mistakes.
But he didn't drag some no hoper car to a win.
For the record though I'll repeat that anyone that can win 4 x WDC in a row is a bit special. Regardless of the equipment you have the drive and determination to stay at the top for 4 years is a remarkable trait.
Sources
http://www.grandprix.com/gpe/rr799.html
http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2008/9/8387...
http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2008/9/8378...
From memory qualifying was wet and a bit of a lottery. Hamilton and others lost out due to going out too late in the session. Vettel qualified on pole - a great achievement arguably better than the race itself. However let's not forget Bourdais in the other Toro Rosso qualified in 4th and that despite struggling to keep the car on the track.
Due to the extremely wet qualifying and teams having gambled/made mistakes in when to run and on what tyres the grid was all over the place. The race itself started behind the safety car which took away the chance for faster cars to overtake Vettel at the start. For the first 10-15 laps Vettel was the only driver that could see where he was going and built up an easy 10 second lead. Bourdais started from the pit lane due to a gearbox issue.
Yet despite Bourdais starting right at the back and finishing a lap down he still set the second fastest lap of the race only beaten by Kimi. That year Kimi claimed 10 fastest laps - 7 more than anyone else. So the Toro Rosso was quick. And lets not forget Bourdais was a driver that couldn't handle an inexperienced team mate like Buemi and had his contract terminated early because Toro Rosso didn't think he was good enough.
Post race interview with Robert Kubica:
There is no secret now. Everybody realises that some cars are performing better in the wet than some others. Toro Rosso and Red Bull have always been strong in the wet. If we look at last year or two years ago, even if they were far behind us in the dry, in the wet they were just right there, and now in the last few races Toro Rosso have even become the third team in the dry conditions, or fourth, whatever, but very close, even in front of us sometimes. As soon as it starts raining they become the fastest and I really feel happy for the guys at Toro Rosso. I know many of the people there and they really did a great job and they deserve it.
So there is no doubt that Vettel drove a perfect race on Sunday and completely deserves the praise he received for the win. It was text book with no mistakes.
But he didn't drag some no hoper car to a win.
For the record though I'll repeat that anyone that can win 4 x WDC in a row is a bit special. Regardless of the equipment you have the drive and determination to stay at the top for 4 years is a remarkable trait.
Sources
http://www.grandprix.com/gpe/rr799.html
http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2008/9/8387...
http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2008/9/8378...
Edited by Agent Orange on Thursday 24th April 10:40
There are quite a few racing cars drivers, F1 and other formulas, who, when they got into the seat, you knew that the hairs on the back of your neck were going to stand up. Not going to try and name them all, 'cos I'd probably miss a few out. But the recent two German drivers aren't in my list. Don't know why. Sorry.
Very interesting post about the famed Torro Rosso win, especially Bourdais setting 2nd fastest lap!
I don't hold with the idea that Vettel is mediocre...I just don't think he is anything special. It's obviously a cliche to say it but had Alonso been in that Red Bull for the last few years alongside Webber, does anyone doubt he'd have won all those WDCs too?
Interesting season either way. I can't understand why people get annoyed about the lack of overtaking etc....F1 is a soap opera, it's never been the best formula for close racing, it's all the drama that makes it exciting and this season already has a lot of talking points, even if Mercedes do romp away with it.
VladD said:
A bit devil's advocate here, but how do we know that Alonso has had mediocre cars? I'm looking for proof here rather than speculation. It's often quoted, but I've never really seen hard evidence for it.
Well I guess I base it on best lap times, what the people actually in the sport seem to say and also the gulf in performance between Alonso and his team mates of recent years (with the exception of Hamilton which as I've said, is quite telling).I don't hold with the idea that Vettel is mediocre...I just don't think he is anything special. It's obviously a cliche to say it but had Alonso been in that Red Bull for the last few years alongside Webber, does anyone doubt he'd have won all those WDCs too?
Interesting season either way. I can't understand why people get annoyed about the lack of overtaking etc....F1 is a soap opera, it's never been the best formula for close racing, it's all the drama that makes it exciting and this season already has a lot of talking points, even if Mercedes do romp away with it.
T0MMY said:
I don't hold with the idea that Vettel is mediocre...I just don't think he is anything special. It's obviously a cliche to say it but had Alonso been in that Red Bull for the last few years alongside Webber, does anyone doubt he'd have won all those WDCs too?
I dont think he would have, as the car was built for Vettel and his driving style.Did Alonso have the smae car as Lewis in 2007?
T0MMY said:
I don't hold with the idea that Vettel is mediocre...I just don't think he is anything special. It's obviously a cliche to say it but had Alonso been in that Red Bull for the last few years alongside Webber, does anyone doubt he'd have won all those WDCs too?
YesA car is not built in a showroom, and then shipped off to the driver, it is developed with the driver.
part and parcel of being a great driver is to understand, work with and develop the vehicle.
you swap alonso and vettel around n their cars and they will both be crap.
its why some years a driver doesn't gel with the car/team and others they do. yes this i an annoying argument because its one more excuse of why some one has or hasn't performed well, but inevitably the driver has to be great at this to be a great driver. Without the feedback the car cannot improve.
in previous seasons the redbull gelled with vettel, but not webber, just as this one is gelling with riciardo, but not vettel. As the car moves on throughout the year we will see who does better with this, just as we will see the same at ferrari etc.
Vettel annoys and polarizes me, on a regular basis.
I am very much into my F1 - have been for a long while now.
Having had quite a few years of experience in racing myself (superbikes) I know and acknowledge that all racing competitors are generally quite unusual, special people - there aren't so many humans who are willing to risk life and limb on a regular basis, in the pursuit of trophies, fame, money, etc. - or whatever it is that drives them to race.
Actually if you ask me why I spent so much time and money on racing, and took my sensible brain out of my head at race meetings, and was willing to risk serious injury or even death, in order to just win races and a few crappy tin trophies (no money at my level!), and to beat my fellow competitors (who were all just ordinary people like me, most of them with day jobs) then honestly, I probably couldn't tell you why I did it?
So I can appreciate why anyone races to win. Regardless of the cost and consequences. Hence, in F1 I do try and be impartial with the drivers, and try not to be swayed by prejudices, their attitude, and their driving. I like to try and just enjoy the racing and what any particular driver can manage on any particular day.
However. I cannot lie that I struggle to be neutral with regard to two drivers. Alonso is one - despite his obvious natural brilliance, I have seen far too many instances of his arrogance and bravado - and insular behaviour to the sport, bad sentiment to team mates, and sometimes a clearly unsporting nature. So, nothing will now sway me from my opinion of him as a complete t
t, whom I dislike intensely!
The other is Vettel - but my feelings aren't as strong as for Alonso. Firstly, there's an obvious and initial prejudice that many people have towards him in the UK, just for being 'a German.' Well that's out for me - 'ze war' and all that, was a LONG time ago, and anyone being prejudiced towards Germans these days is a blinkered idiot. So it's not that. Re-inforced by the fact that I love Rosberg and Hulkenburg.
Secondly - he's a bit mouthy and arrogant, with perhaps a sense of entitlement. Yes, he is - however, I recognise that traits like these are often not unusual in hugely competitive drivers, who want to win. However, despite him being like this - he's not blatantly unsporting like Alonso has been - he's hard, and unswerving in his dedication - but generally a fair racer on track.
So, he's got a bit of an attitude, but not one that is blatantly bad, or unfair.
Then, when I see him in interviews and on TV programmes like Top Gear, he then comes across as an intelligent, thoughtful, considerate person, who is committed to his racing in every way - and even with a good sense of humour...quite funny, self-depricating...quite appealing and likeable actually?
I therefore should like and respect him.
So...why don't I??? I've no idea! When he says or does something a little controversial on a race day, I find myself shouting at the TV in an entirely irrational and prejudiced manner - using insults which hark back to the 1940's!!! I know I am being an idiot for doing so....but there must be some reason why I do, eh?!!!
I am very much into my F1 - have been for a long while now.
Having had quite a few years of experience in racing myself (superbikes) I know and acknowledge that all racing competitors are generally quite unusual, special people - there aren't so many humans who are willing to risk life and limb on a regular basis, in the pursuit of trophies, fame, money, etc. - or whatever it is that drives them to race.
Actually if you ask me why I spent so much time and money on racing, and took my sensible brain out of my head at race meetings, and was willing to risk serious injury or even death, in order to just win races and a few crappy tin trophies (no money at my level!), and to beat my fellow competitors (who were all just ordinary people like me, most of them with day jobs) then honestly, I probably couldn't tell you why I did it?
So I can appreciate why anyone races to win. Regardless of the cost and consequences. Hence, in F1 I do try and be impartial with the drivers, and try not to be swayed by prejudices, their attitude, and their driving. I like to try and just enjoy the racing and what any particular driver can manage on any particular day.
However. I cannot lie that I struggle to be neutral with regard to two drivers. Alonso is one - despite his obvious natural brilliance, I have seen far too many instances of his arrogance and bravado - and insular behaviour to the sport, bad sentiment to team mates, and sometimes a clearly unsporting nature. So, nothing will now sway me from my opinion of him as a complete t
t, whom I dislike intensely!The other is Vettel - but my feelings aren't as strong as for Alonso. Firstly, there's an obvious and initial prejudice that many people have towards him in the UK, just for being 'a German.' Well that's out for me - 'ze war' and all that, was a LONG time ago, and anyone being prejudiced towards Germans these days is a blinkered idiot. So it's not that. Re-inforced by the fact that I love Rosberg and Hulkenburg.
Secondly - he's a bit mouthy and arrogant, with perhaps a sense of entitlement. Yes, he is - however, I recognise that traits like these are often not unusual in hugely competitive drivers, who want to win. However, despite him being like this - he's not blatantly unsporting like Alonso has been - he's hard, and unswerving in his dedication - but generally a fair racer on track.
So, he's got a bit of an attitude, but not one that is blatantly bad, or unfair.
Then, when I see him in interviews and on TV programmes like Top Gear, he then comes across as an intelligent, thoughtful, considerate person, who is committed to his racing in every way - and even with a good sense of humour...quite funny, self-depricating...quite appealing and likeable actually?
I therefore should like and respect him.
So...why don't I??? I've no idea! When he says or does something a little controversial on a race day, I find myself shouting at the TV in an entirely irrational and prejudiced manner - using insults which hark back to the 1940's!!! I know I am being an idiot for doing so....but there must be some reason why I do, eh?!!!
Nico Rosberg is Finnish but raised in Monaco...
I get the impression Vettel really is Mr Nice Guy as long as everything goes his way and nobody questions his supremacy. There's no doubt he has a tremendous temper and some incidents (like Turkey in 2010) showed that he lacks maturity. Webber bore it all with admirable dignity - if I'd been in his boots I'd have been sorely tempted to hit Vettel in the face on several occasions - but Webber quipped on Top Gear, when Clarkson suggested dealing out a bit of rough justice, "My dad always says you shouldn't hit boys, mate". I think that kind of tells you what he thinks of Vettel! That Vettel got four championships and Webber none while they were in the same team really proves that Helmut Marko and Dietrich Mateschitz have had it all sewn up. Vettel is NOT a better driver and, now he no longer has the fastest car under him, is proving his essential mediocrity. I hope he gets the boot and that Webber is brought back to replace him next year. We'll see, I doubt it'll happen, but it's nice to imagine... Webber could then practice looking smug!
I get the impression Vettel really is Mr Nice Guy as long as everything goes his way and nobody questions his supremacy. There's no doubt he has a tremendous temper and some incidents (like Turkey in 2010) showed that he lacks maturity. Webber bore it all with admirable dignity - if I'd been in his boots I'd have been sorely tempted to hit Vettel in the face on several occasions - but Webber quipped on Top Gear, when Clarkson suggested dealing out a bit of rough justice, "My dad always says you shouldn't hit boys, mate". I think that kind of tells you what he thinks of Vettel! That Vettel got four championships and Webber none while they were in the same team really proves that Helmut Marko and Dietrich Mateschitz have had it all sewn up. Vettel is NOT a better driver and, now he no longer has the fastest car under him, is proving his essential mediocrity. I hope he gets the boot and that Webber is brought back to replace him next year. We'll see, I doubt it'll happen, but it's nice to imagine... Webber could then practice looking smug!
There is a saying (attributed to various people) "It is not how you fall down that matters, but how you pick yourself up." Now I quite like Mr Vettel as a bloke, nothing against him at all, very personable. But his finger waving and little petulant spats (and probably a Schumacher-esque endless winning streak to which he seems to think he is entitled) really mark him down in my book.
As above, Mark Weber's reaction puts him clearly second place when it comes to racing, but a long way in front when it comes to being a decent human being who you might want to work, or have a pint with. I have heard the "but all dedicated sportsmen at the top of their game are like this", which I don't buy for a second. I think Hamilton is finally maturing as an adult (easy to say when he is winning I guess) but it is how Vettel picks himself up and fights back that will show his true character.
As above, Mark Weber's reaction puts him clearly second place when it comes to racing, but a long way in front when it comes to being a decent human being who you might want to work, or have a pint with. I have heard the "but all dedicated sportsmen at the top of their game are like this", which I don't buy for a second. I think Hamilton is finally maturing as an adult (easy to say when he is winning I guess) but it is how Vettel picks himself up and fights back that will show his true character.
I think what has set him apart the last few seasons (ignoring anything in the car) is his ability to lead from the front consistently and make very few mistakes in doing so. It's all very well being fast, but he has had the whole package to lead and win comfortably when he has stuck it on pole position and just walked away from everyone.
It's almost like he has some kind of hyperfocus when it's him on his own for a race and he can set daft lap times and get the job done.
More telling though is what happens when he is in the pack or he is being challenged and I think he can get flustered in the car when things aren't going his way.
His incident with Webber a couple of years ago in the Turkish GP was a good example.
By comparison, Hamilton does whinge a lot but he has proved he can get the job done. Bahrain was a classy example of dogfighting with his team mate where they both drove brilliantly, didn't really have any incidents in racing each other and Hamilton came out on top of it. I just think his racecraft and his ability to maintain his composure in the car when under that pressure is exemplary. Not to say he hasn't had some wobbles along the way mind.
Vettel just comes across to me as someone who is almost too nice to be true in interviews. It almost doesn't seem genuine and some of the stroppy remarks he has come out with just reinforce that idea for me.
It's almost like he has some kind of hyperfocus when it's him on his own for a race and he can set daft lap times and get the job done.
More telling though is what happens when he is in the pack or he is being challenged and I think he can get flustered in the car when things aren't going his way.
His incident with Webber a couple of years ago in the Turkish GP was a good example.
By comparison, Hamilton does whinge a lot but he has proved he can get the job done. Bahrain was a classy example of dogfighting with his team mate where they both drove brilliantly, didn't really have any incidents in racing each other and Hamilton came out on top of it. I just think his racecraft and his ability to maintain his composure in the car when under that pressure is exemplary. Not to say he hasn't had some wobbles along the way mind.
Vettel just comes across to me as someone who is almost too nice to be true in interviews. It almost doesn't seem genuine and some of the stroppy remarks he has come out with just reinforce that idea for me.
Efbe said:
Yes
A car is not built in a showroom, and then shipped off to the driver, it is developed with the driver.
part and parcel of being a great driver is to understand, work with and develop the vehicle.
But the opportunities for the driver to do that are now severely restricted. In the past the likes of Schumacher, Piquet, Prost etc (but especially Schumi with his awesome work ethic) would test and test. Now they can't do that, and indeed the Schumi of the testing-era was considerably better than the Schumi in the non-testing era.A car is not built in a showroom, and then shipped off to the driver, it is developed with the driver.
part and parcel of being a great driver is to understand, work with and develop the vehicle.
I thought it telling that Nico praised the team in Oz for "the car you've given me". Not too long ago you'd never hear a driver say that, imo.
Nowadays the driver gets to spend a few days pre-season with the car and then has to get on with what he's got, which is a bit of a shame for us fans imo.
peterg1955 said:
Sorry but no, Nico Rosberg was born in Wiesbaden, Hesse, West Germany (his Mother is German) and therefore is German, the only thing Finnish about him is his Father...
I understood he carries a Finnish rather than German passport. My father was born in Mumbai but he sure as hell wasn't Indian.RoverP6B said:
peterg1955 said:
Sorry but no, Nico Rosberg was born in Wiesbaden, Hesse, West Germany (his Mother is German) and therefore is German, the only thing Finnish about him is his Father...
I understood he carries a Finnish rather than German passport. My father was born in Mumbai but he sure as hell wasn't Indian."I was born on June 27th 1985 in Wiesbaden, Germany and raised in Monaco. My family’s roots are in Germany and Finland, but I consider myself a German"
peterg1955 said:
He holds dual nationality (but speaks very little Finnish) from his own website:
"I was born on June 27th 1985 in Wiesbaden, Germany and raised in Monaco. My family’s roots are in Germany and Finland, but I consider myself a German"
Right, I go only on what I see/hear on the BBC, I'm not in the habit of visiting F1 drivers' websites. I stand corrected."I was born on June 27th 1985 in Wiesbaden, Germany and raised in Monaco. My family’s roots are in Germany and Finland, but I consider myself a German"
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