Ayrton Senna is overrated. Discuss...

Ayrton Senna is overrated. Discuss...

Author
Discussion

toppstuff

Original Poster:

13,698 posts

246 months

Monday 28th October 2013
quotequote all
As a long time fan of F1, I must confess to being a bit puzzled by the deifying of Ayrton Senna.

To me, he was an exciting but flawed champion.

His petulance, inconsistency and unsporting side, for me, severely knocks his position as one of the greats.

Maybe I am in a minority, I don't know.

What the PH collective view?

smile

Eric Mc

121,770 posts

264 months

Monday 28th October 2013
quotequote all
I'm sure this was a topic not that long ago.

No, he wasn't overrated.

But he has been inappropriately deified.

toppstuff

Original Poster:

13,698 posts

246 months

Monday 28th October 2013
quotequote all
Eric Mc said:
I'm sure this was a topic not that long ago.

.
If so, apologies. smile

entropy

5,403 posts

202 months

Busso GTA

178 posts

125 months

Monday 28th October 2013
quotequote all
Yawn ....... another Senna was average thread , I suggest you take a long hard look at his races and take all the hyperbole and worship that he is given out of the equation and you will see he was pretty handy with a car and his skill is deserving of the praise it receives not just from fans but drivers alike , was he a bit of a tosspot ? almost certainly but no more than any of his other peers .

hairyben

8,516 posts

182 months

Monday 28th October 2013
quotequote all
He's brown bread, therein ends objective discussion.

Probably easier to remember what was said about Simonchelli's riding not so long before his accident, and the deafening silence since.

Not that I'm agreeing, disagreeing or spoiling for a fight, just it is what it is. Senna was a proper bad boy, probably not as loathsome as schumacher but he had his faults, detractors, petty h8r's and all just like hamilton, alonso etc.

Piginapoke

4,736 posts

184 months

Monday 28th October 2013
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It's the flaws, ironically, that made him great. Not overrated at all, best there has been.

nlockie93

11 posts

134 months

Monday 28th October 2013
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I don't think he was overrated but rather some of his achievements have been over hyped. The famous race at Monaco for example where he was catching Prost in the rain while driving the Toleman is often brought up as a showcase for his talent but nearly always the fact that Stefan Bellof was catching Prost and Senna at much quicker rate than Senna was catching Prost is nearly always overlooked. Another example of this is at Donnington when he went from 4th to 1st in one lap, while at the same time Rubens Barrichello went from 12th place to 4th on the same lap in a much more inferior car, so overall he was very good but I feel he is often given more credit then he may have been due.

onyx39

11,109 posts

149 months

Monday 28th October 2013
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You think?

Watch this, see if you change your mind.

http://youtu.be/XreZYi-ws54

entropy

5,403 posts

202 months

Monday 28th October 2013
quotequote all
nlockie93 said:
I don't think he was overrated but rather some of his achievements have been over hyped. The famous race at Monaco for example where he was catching Prost in the rain while driving the Toleman is often brought up as a showcase for his talent but nearly always the fact that Stefan Bellof was catching Prost and Senna at much quicker rate than Senna was catching Prost is nearly always overlooked. Another example of this is at Donnington when he went from 4th to 1st in one lap, while at the same time Rubens Barrichello went from 12th place to 4th on the same lap in a much more inferior car, so overall he was very good but I feel he is often given more credit then he may have been due.
Monaco - Bellof would have to overtake both Senna and Prost. You also have bear in mind that Senna clashed with Brundle in the previous year in F3.

Donington - also bear in mind that Senna judged and drove to the conditions to perfection. How many stops did Rubens make compared with Senna before Rubens retired?

dr_gn

16,140 posts

183 months

Monday 28th October 2013
quotequote all
entropy said:
nlockie93 said:
I don't think he was overrated but rather some of his achievements have been over hyped. The famous race at Monaco for example where he was catching Prost in the rain while driving the Toleman is often brought up as a showcase for his talent but nearly always the fact that Stefan Bellof was catching Prost and Senna at much quicker rate than Senna was catching Prost is nearly always overlooked. Another example of this is at Donnington when he went from 4th to 1st in one lap, while at the same time Rubens Barrichello went from 12th place to 4th on the same lap in a much more inferior car, so overall he was very good but I feel he is often given more credit then he may have been due.
Monaco - Bellof would have to overtake both Senna and Prost. You also have bear in mind that Senna clashed with Brundle in the previous year in F3.

Donington - also bear in mind that Senna judged and drove to the conditions to perfection. How many stops did Rubens make compared with Senna before Rubens retired?
You also have to bear in mind that Bellof's car was illegal.

gaz1234

5,233 posts

218 months

Monday 28th October 2013
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I'm on the fence

Vaud

50,285 posts

154 months

Monday 28th October 2013
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hairybe said:

Not that I'm agreeing, disagreeing or spoiling for a fight, just it is what it is. Senna was a proper bad boy, probably not as loathsome as schumacher but he had his faults, detractors, petty h8r's and all just like hamilton, alonso etc.
Well he punched Irvine so he wasn't all bad. Mind you, the story goes that irvine said some rather disrespectful about his family....

AJS-

15,366 posts

235 months

Tuesday 29th October 2013
quotequote all
Over rated by who?

He was a triple world champion in a competitive era, and consistently blindingly fast. He had flashes of genius and moments of stupidity.

He ultimately died at the right time, like Jimi Hendrix of James Dean he never suffered the fate of growing old. The disastrous come back tour, the team management attempt. Die Hard 4.

He also suffered the most romantic death a racing driver can possibly have, crashing out of the lead at Imola, ending F1's quest for ever more power and speed.

For those looking for a romantic hero to personify a purer and more dramatic age of F1 (a bit of a myth in itself) then Senna ticks all the boxes.

By any measure he was a great driver, blindingly fast and exciting to watch.

Finlandese

540 posts

174 months

Tuesday 29th October 2013
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dr_gn said:
entropy said:
nlockie93 said:
I don't think he was overrated but rather some of his achievements have been over hyped. The famous race at Monaco for example where he was catching Prost in the rain while driving the Toleman is often brought up as a showcase for his talent but nearly always the fact that Stefan Bellof was catching Prost and Senna at much quicker rate than Senna was catching Prost is nearly always overlooked. Another example of this is at Donnington when he went from 4th to 1st in one lap, while at the same time Rubens Barrichello went from 12th place to 4th on the same lap in a much more inferior car, so overall he was very good but I feel he is often given more credit then he may have been due.
Monaco - Bellof would have to overtake both Senna and Prost. You also have bear in mind that Senna clashed with Brundle in the previous year in F3.

Donington - also bear in mind that Senna judged and drove to the conditions to perfection. How many stops did Rubens make compared with Senna before Rubens retired?
You also have to bear in mind that Bellof's car was illegal.
You also have to bear in mind that Bellof´s car was naturally aspirated, which was a definaty plus in those conditions..

Megaflow

9,345 posts

224 months

Tuesday 29th October 2013
quotequote all
AJS- said:
Over rated by who?

He was a triple world champion in a competitive era, and consistently blindingly fast. He had flashes of genius and moments of stupidity.

He ultimately died at the right time, like Jimi Hendrix of James Dean he never suffered the fate of growing old. The disastrous come back tour, the team management attempt. Die Hard 4.

He also suffered the most romantic death a racing driver can possibly have, crashing out of the lead at Imola, ending F1's quest for ever more power and speed.

For those looking for a romantic hero to personify a purer and more dramatic age of F1 (a bit of a myth in itself) then Senna ticks all the boxes.

By any measure he was a great driver, blindingly fast and exciting to watch.
That about covers. Plus the fact he would almost certainly have won more championships. Look how close Hill came to the 1994 title after all the turmoil the team went through after Senna's death, you would have to conclude Senna would have won the 1994 championship, his fourth.

Had Senna won the 1994 championship, would Renault have offered engines to Benetton as well? Possibly not.

Take the Renault engine out of the Benetton and would Schumacher have won the 1995 championship in a Benetton Ford against Senna in a Williams Renault. Possibly not.

If Schumacher didn't have two titles to his name, would have Ferrari given a blank cheque book to him and the entire Benetton design / strategy team. Possibly not.

Crude it may be, but I believe the best thing that happened to Schumacher's career was Senna's death.

Don't get me wrong, Schmacher is good, and I am quite sure he would have won championships, but I am sure Senna would have been the first to match Fangio's five tittles.

Bas Jaski

434 posts

192 months

Tuesday 29th October 2013
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Megaflow said:
That about covers. Plus the fact he would almost certainly have won more championships. Look how close Hill came to the 1994 title after all the turmoil the team went through after Senna's death, you would have to conclude Senna would have won the 1994 championship, his fourth.

Had Senna won the 1994 championship, would Renault have offered engines to Benetton as well? Possibly not.

Take the Renault engine out of the Benetton and would Schumacher have won the 1995 championship in a Benetton Ford against Senna in a Williams Renault. Possibly not.

If Schumacher didn't have two titles to his name, would have Ferrari given a blank cheque book to him and the entire Benetton design / strategy team. Possibly not.

Crude it may be, but I believe the best thing that happened to Schumacher's career was Senna's death.

Don't get me wrong, Schmacher is good, and I am quite sure he would have won championships, but I am sure Senna would have been the first to match Fangio's five tittles.
Senna had signed to go to Ferrari for 1994 I believe.

It's so very hard to compare drivers from different era's. Schumacher had shown he was up to match Senna in 94 and did well in 92/93 also (in 93, every race he finished was no lower than 3rd!). In the V10's MSC was in a class of one mostly. Even in inferior cars (the 97 Williams was up to 1.5s faster than his Ferrari) he brought it down to the wire.

Had Senna not died I don't think he would've gotten half the fan base he has now. I will always admire his fantastic skill. Choosing the top 3 is impossible for me but MSC and Senna belong there.

birdcage

2,838 posts

204 months

Tuesday 29th October 2013
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Vocal Minority

8,582 posts

151 months

Tuesday 29th October 2013
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Eric Mc said:
No, he wasn't overrated.

But he has been inappropriately deified.
Yep.

My girlfriend asked me once, 'Do people say Senna was as good as they do because he died?'

My answer is 'No, he was that good. He is as loved as he is because he died'.

If he were still alive he would be just as divisive as Schumacher.

ferrisbueller

29,260 posts

226 months

Tuesday 29th October 2013
quotequote all
Bas Jaski said:
Senna had signed to go to Ferrari for 1994 I believe.
??

Bas Jaski said:
It's so very hard to compare drivers from different era's. Schumacher had shown he was up to match Senna in 94
....how legal was that Benetton?