RE: Peugout 208 Hybrid FE: Driven
Discussion
Progress, progress, progress!!
That is what this is. The pace of development of hybrids has been set up a notch or two. At last a manufacturer realises that weight, or lack of, is the key for a better car, let alone a hybrid. We can expect some "trickle down" from this in the near future if not the whole thing. Good to see some real bravery from Peugeot. Other manufacturers take note....
Colin Chapman is smiling from his (lightweight) coffin.....
That is what this is. The pace of development of hybrids has been set up a notch or two. At last a manufacturer realises that weight, or lack of, is the key for a better car, let alone a hybrid. We can expect some "trickle down" from this in the near future if not the whole thing. Good to see some real bravery from Peugeot. Other manufacturers take note....
Colin Chapman is smiling from his (lightweight) coffin.....
Blackpuddin said:
Would love to see more about the suspension, one area that seems long overdue for a rethink.
I agree, an area where composites could be made suitable for mass production and still give good weight savings. The article suggests maybe 70% of the changes are viable for everyday cars - so a 208 at 950kg with 100hp and 70mpg? That wouldn't be a bad car (or if you could squeeze all the gubbins into a 107).maffski said:
I agree, an area where composites could be made suitable for mass production and still give good weight savings. The article suggests maybe 70% of the changes are viable for everyday cars - so a 208 at 950kg with 100hp and 70mpg? That wouldn't be a bad car (or if you could squeeze all the gubbins into a 107).
Composites could be put everywhere if people weren't so snobby. All enclosures could be put people like a nice solid clunk when they close things and they want to feel the weight of things.Personally I'm happy with the plastic front wings on my car and don't understand why other cars have metal wings, except you can't push on plastic wings, but maybe you could if they were composite..
Random mat or BMC GFRP composites are pretty cheap compared to fancy woven carbon stuff and are perfectly acceptable for wings and probably enclosures too. A little bit of low cost foam backing or sandwiching can quickly add a bit of useful stiffness, though the more complicated your composites the more complicated their wear characteristics and/or repair methods.
Big door opening are another issue, robs stiffness which has to be compensated elsewhere.
Give me small doors any day, I don't mind a bit of a struggle to get in and out.
Just goes to show what the mainstream manufactures could/should be doing. Again this is tech that is out there already, its all been done before but is rarely applied in production cars. Its great to see race car tech crossing over, just goes to show what clever bods are out there when given a budget.
The Cd reducing reducing bootlid aero arrangement is simple & I bet very good at reducing the cars trailing wake by a massive amount (one of the biggest drag factors) The suspension method is neat way of loosing weight, the lightweight water system, less weight throughout is never ending cycle of efficiency gains.
VW have done similar before with the Lupo 3L 1.2 Tdi of which I have one of them, also the Audi A2 3L did the same, lightweight materials throughout eg mag/ally suspension components, ally boot, bonnet, doors, wings, bulkhead & sills, ally seat frames, mag rear bootlid extended for aero wake reduction, closed front grill, reduced ride height etc. Saves 160kg over the standard car & reduced the drag from .32 to .29 & 100mpg is genuinely achievable from a standard production car from the year 2000!!!
The lupo also shares the ESG Robotised manual gearbox, bloody awful idea
Sounds like someone has remapped the robot bit thank god! As in regular pugs/Citroens these have comedy badly mapped gear changes that should never been allowed to make it to production.
The stats of this Pug are vaguely similar to the Lupo, if you take away the hybrid bits
Power 61 bhp (42bhp in eco mode)
Maximum speed 165 kmh
Acceleration from standstill to 100 km/h 14 sec
Fuel consumption (economy) - urban 3.7 l/100 km
Fuel consumption (economy) - extra urban 2.7 l/100 km
Fuel consumption (economy) - combined 3.0 l/100 km
Weight 830 kg.
81g Co2
The Cd reducing reducing bootlid aero arrangement is simple & I bet very good at reducing the cars trailing wake by a massive amount (one of the biggest drag factors) The suspension method is neat way of loosing weight, the lightweight water system, less weight throughout is never ending cycle of efficiency gains.
VW have done similar before with the Lupo 3L 1.2 Tdi of which I have one of them, also the Audi A2 3L did the same, lightweight materials throughout eg mag/ally suspension components, ally boot, bonnet, doors, wings, bulkhead & sills, ally seat frames, mag rear bootlid extended for aero wake reduction, closed front grill, reduced ride height etc. Saves 160kg over the standard car & reduced the drag from .32 to .29 & 100mpg is genuinely achievable from a standard production car from the year 2000!!!
The lupo also shares the ESG Robotised manual gearbox, bloody awful idea
Sounds like someone has remapped the robot bit thank god! As in regular pugs/Citroens these have comedy badly mapped gear changes that should never been allowed to make it to production.The stats of this Pug are vaguely similar to the Lupo, if you take away the hybrid bits
Power 61 bhp (42bhp in eco mode)
Maximum speed 165 kmh
Acceleration from standstill to 100 km/h 14 sec
Fuel consumption (economy) - urban 3.7 l/100 km
Fuel consumption (economy) - extra urban 2.7 l/100 km
Fuel consumption (economy) - combined 3.0 l/100 km
Weight 830 kg.
81g Co2
Edited by cptsideways on Wednesday 30th October 11:35
bagman13 said:
"The 908 donated its tiny electric engine designed to push out 120hp of power, but here restricted to 40hp. A 90-cell lithium ion battery pack supplied the juice."
Does that mean it can be unrestricted?
I wouldn't be surprised if the batteries couldn't supply the current (at least not without overheating). Does that mean it can be unrestricted?
The Crack Fox said:
A concept car isn't brave. Actually making it is brave, or rather, it would be.
Committing the resources to develop and build it takes an element of bravery, particularly when funds are tight. They could have just let the whole team from the 908HY programme go.An interesting concept. I'd like to know how robust the suspension is and how it effects the handling. Another day, I guess!
Interesting stuff. It will be worth watching how hybrid technology evolves over the next year or two and the various approaches and trade offs different manufacturers make. It is driven, of course, by regulation - not necessariy the best or most efficient route to innovative products. And they won`t be cheap either, because batteries have limited storage capacity and weight saving wheezes like carbon fibre parts depend, at the moment, on inherently low volume production technology.
Speaking as an engineer/technologist it's a great idea to let the engineering/design team have some 'play time' with design. Stick the car/whatever piecepart in the middle of the office/communal kitchen and let everyone in the business have a chance to look and comment on it.
I still think the biggist barrier to everything hybrid is battery technology. Although I suspect the solution to that could come from the mobile phone industry.
I still think the biggist barrier to everything hybrid is battery technology. Although I suspect the solution to that could come from the mobile phone industry.
Edited by BeirutTaxi on Wednesday 30th October 12:31
Very interesting, makes the 208 desireable.
As a petrolhead I'm loving all these eco boxes, I don't want to drive my V8 to work everyday. It's tiresome and expensive, but something small and economical just fits the bill so perfectly!
Let's see what Peugeot does with this for the 209, replace the titanium with carbon and it'll almost be worthwhile!
Prices need to be kept under £20k for a vehicle like this but it'll fly off the shelves (literally at that weight).
As a petrolhead I'm loving all these eco boxes, I don't want to drive my V8 to work everyday. It's tiresome and expensive, but something small and economical just fits the bill so perfectly!
Let's see what Peugeot does with this for the 209, replace the titanium with carbon and it'll almost be worthwhile!
Prices need to be kept under £20k for a vehicle like this but it'll fly off the shelves (literally at that weight).
bob 180 said:
IrishAsal said:
I have to say, this is the first time I've been truly interested in a hybrid.
I also have to say, I find this more interesting than any article about a Lambo, Aston, the P1 vs LaF vs 918, 135i M comparisons, etc., etc.
What I have always loved about cars is creativity and ingenious problem solving. Outside of the marketing departments, that has been severely lacking of late but this car, and article, really interested me. Thanks!
agreedI also have to say, I find this more interesting than any article about a Lambo, Aston, the P1 vs LaF vs 918, 135i M comparisons, etc., etc.
What I have always loved about cars is creativity and ingenious problem solving. Outside of the marketing departments, that has been severely lacking of late but this car, and article, really interested me. Thanks!
scarble said:
But they say the powertrain weight is roughly the same, so all the starter motor, alternator and battery weight saving is nullified by the hybrid. So just how much weight have they saved with these gfrp springs and where's the rest gone and when can we have those weight savings on a road car?
+ Electric Propulsion Motor, - Electric Starter Motor+ Propulsion Battery Pack, - Starter Battery
So they haven't really removed or added anything, just repurposed it.
"Economy and racing is exactly the same" Is it now? And what are you smoking today?
The kerb weight sounds impressive but then this is a concept and is undoutably bereft of the equipment that people have come to expect (leccy windows, electric leather seats, 8 airbags, 10 speakers, Sat Nav...)
Has anything new actually been invented here?
bagman13 said:
"The 908 donated its tiny electric engine designed to push out 120hp of power, but here restricted to 40hp. A 90-cell lithium ion battery pack supplied the juice."
Does that mean it can be unrestricted?
It's an interesting question.. is this literally the exact same motor in the 908 or artistic license? Maybe they've rewound the coils or maybe just changed the controller setting to not deliver as much current to extend motor life and reduce stresses. The petrol equivalent of a rewind is swapping the turbo and changing the valve profiles, where as changing the motor controller parameters is like a re-map. Does that mean it can be unrestricted?
Li-ion cell are usually 3.7V (near empty) so 90 cells wired in parallel for maximum power gives you 333V i.e. the ability to dump large currents. It may be they decided a smaller push for longer would be better in day to day off track driving, rather than adding weight in the form of more batteries. Specifically as the purpose of this exercise has been to create a low weight warm hatch.
The hybrid technology sounds impressive if it makes it to production.
The other changes come across as common sense to make a car more efficient. Transverse (leaf) springs have been around for a very ling time. Would stressed fibreglass/composite ones ever make it to production? What would their service life be?
Improving aero by improving cooling efficiency reminds me of Mike Costins Lotus Elite with its unbeliveably small radiator grill.
These are all good things to my mind but how much weight would making it pass a Euro crash test add? Its the beaurocrats that will spoil things!
The other changes come across as common sense to make a car more efficient. Transverse (leaf) springs have been around for a very ling time. Would stressed fibreglass/composite ones ever make it to production? What would their service life be?
Improving aero by improving cooling efficiency reminds me of Mike Costins Lotus Elite with its unbeliveably small radiator grill.
These are all good things to my mind but how much weight would making it pass a Euro crash test add? Its the beaurocrats that will spoil things!
This is uber cool and it is encouraging to see some positive responses in place of the dinosaurs bemoaning the death of the combustion engine that has happened in the past at the mere mention of alternative power sources or ecological solutions. Will it sound as glorious as a V8? No, but offering the masses such technology preserves rather than threatens enthusiasts to own combustion exotica. The blade suspension is particularly intriguing albeit that threatens the 'slammed and cammed' brigade which worries me not.
Really impressed with the tech and effort that's gone into this concept, it's great to see low-weight being pushed again. The suspension sounds very interesting - carbon flexures have been in place in motorsport for ages, although I'm guessing the reduced compliance might be an issue for a road car. Peugeot really need to push some of this into their mainstream products to keep up/stay ahead.
I had to laugh at 'Diamond-Like Carbon'. Diamonds are, of course, made entirely of carbon
I had to laugh at 'Diamond-Like Carbon'. Diamonds are, of course, made entirely of carbon
ecs0set said:
scarble said:
But they say the powertrain weight is roughly the same, so all the starter motor, alternator and battery weight saving is nullified by the hybrid. So just how much weight have they saved with these gfrp springs and where's the rest gone and when can we have those weight savings on a road car?
+ Electric Propulsion Motor, - Electric Starter Motor+ Propulsion Battery Pack, - Starter Battery
So they haven't really removed or added anything, just repurposed it.
"Economy and racing is exactly the same" Is it now? And what are you smoking today?
The kerb weight sounds impressive but then this is a concept and is undoutably bereft of the equipment that people have come to expect (leccy windows, electric leather seats, 8 airbags, 10 speakers, Sat Nav...)
Has anything new actually been invented here?
It's interesting to think that a hybrid car could give you a product which will sit in traffic jams not burning fuel, then the next day allow you to drive hundreds of miles without re-fuelling and finally allow you to hoon country lanes at the weekend.
It seems wierd that a concept born out of a tax wheeze could actually deliver a product that could be a bit of a holy grail.
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