RE: Peugout 208 Hybrid FE: Driven

[The Vambo]

RenesisEvo said:

I had to laugh at 'Diamond-Like Carbon'. Diamonds are, of course, made entirely of carbon

True but there is also graphite like carbon. That wouldn't work quite so well.

[maffski]

The Vambo said:

RenesisEvo said:

I had to laugh at 'Diamond-Like Carbon'. Diamonds are, of course, made entirely of carbon

True but there is also graphite like carbon. That wouldn't work quite so well.

But it would leave a brilliant set of 11's on the road (until it rained at least)

[HereBeMonsters]

Yes please.

[Dan Trent]

Glad to see such a positive response to this car and story; we took a punt on it but it's a fascinating study and the guys behind it are the real deal. Indeed, we've got a follow-up interview that'll run tomorrow with more on how they channelled the aborted 908 Hybrid4 into the 208 - it's really interesting stuff!

Cheers,

Dan

[Terminator X]

149mpg good to see the tech side of it though.

TX.

[Terminator X]

The Crack Fox said:

BeirutTaxi said:

I still think the biggist barrier to everything hybrid is battery technology. Although I suspect the solution to that could come from the mobile phone industry.

This is inextricably linked to demand though. Mobile phone battery technology made huge leaps in a couple of years because the demand was there, the market demanded it. I don't see the same massive demand for EVs, hence the relatively slow rate of development for battery car applications, perhaps ? It's an interesting debate, anyway.

Still seem to be charging mine every day though ...

TX.

[DonkeyApple]

Terminator X said:

The Crack Fox said:

BeirutTaxi said:

I still think the biggist barrier to everything hybrid is battery technology. Although I suspect the solution to that could come from the mobile phone industry.

This is inextricably linked to demand though. Mobile phone battery technology made huge leaps in a couple of years because the demand was there, the market demanded it. I don't see the same massive demand for EVs, hence the relatively slow rate of development for battery car applications, perhaps ? It's an interesting debate, anyway.

Still seem to be charging mine every day though ...

TX.

Try not using YouPorn for a day and see if that helps.

[exceed]

Dan Trent said:

Glad to see such a positive response to this car and story; we took a punt on it but it's a fascinating study and the guys behind it are the real deal. Indeed, we've got a follow-up interview that'll run tomorrow with more on how they channelled the aborted 908 Hybrid4 into the 208 - it's really interesting stuff!

Cheers,

Dan

Anything that's game changing is welcome to us as PH'ers. Admittedly the cream comes from the exotic stuff, but we all live in the real world. Even us powerfully built types.

[howertings]

kambites said:

I wouldn't be surprised if the batteries couldn't supply the current (at least not without overheating).

Yes, they probably could (subject to a limit of course), but given that the two biggest factors in determining the life of a battery are the discharge rate and the depth of discharge (DOD), so the car control electronics generally limit both of these to try to extend the battery life as much as possible - witness the backup motor in the BMW i3 kicking in at 80% battery discharge.

[jaik]

Terminator X said:

The Crack Fox said:

BeirutTaxi said:

I still think the biggist barrier to everything hybrid is battery technology. Although I suspect the solution to that could come from the mobile phone industry.

This is inextricably linked to demand though. Mobile phone battery technology made huge leaps in a couple of years because the demand was there, the market demanded it. I don't see the same massive demand for EVs, hence the relatively slow rate of development for battery car applications, perhaps ? It's an interesting debate, anyway.

Still seem to be charging mine every day though ...

TX.

Yet today's phones are far smaller than a phone from 5 years ago. And have far larger screens. And far faster data transmission. Etc…

[scarble]

RenesisEvo said:

I had to laugh at 'Diamond-Like Carbon'. Diamonds are, of course, made entirely of carbon

You're right that all diamonds are carbon, but not all carbon is diamond, this carbon is diamond-like, hence the name "diamond-like carbon"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamond_like_carbon

Dan Trent said:

Glad to see such a positive response to this car and story; we took a punt on it but it's a fascinating study and the guys behind it are the real deal. Indeed, we've got a follow-up interview that'll run tomorrow with more on how they channelled the aborted 908 Hybrid4 into the 208 - it's really interesting stuff!
Cheers,
Dan

Could you ask them about the weight, dimensions and power of the motor and battery please? Something about heat dissipation would be interesting too. Liquid or air cooled, does it have to be in the airstream, etc. and also a breakdown of where they've saved weight (e.g. is it 20kgs from the springs, 10kg worth of sound deadening, 15kg from the aircon..)
Also some idea of the range and/or battery capacity and whether they could get something a bit quicker with less range if they had the full whack from the motor. Although with this reduced power and the very much warm-hatch territory 8 seconds it does sound like they're readying at least some aspects for production.
But if it costs more than the gti and is slower, would it make commercial sense to try to sell both variants?
I bet the floorpan is different from production to take these leaf springs though?

[RenesisEvo]

scarble said:

RenesisEvo said:

I had to laugh at 'Diamond-Like Carbon'. Diamonds are, of course, made entirely of carbon

You're right that all diamonds are carbon, but not all carbon is diamond, this carbon is diamond-like, hence the name "diamond-like carbon"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamond_like_carbon

Thanks, the comment was partly tongue-in-cheek. It was interesting reading through the properties.

I do hope the manufacturers can bring ~800kg hatches to the market, something about a fairly practical mid-size car with a small but feisty engine really appeals. Imagine the Ford Focus 1.0 ecoboost but with that level of weight reduction. Perhaps the future isn't looking quite so disastrous for the enthusiast.

And something I didn't mention earlier - forget electric vs hydraulic steering that has been the hot topic this year across many car segments, welcome back (with open arms) unassisted steering! I'd happily live with the purity of it, despite the suspension geometry compromises - and let's face it, most of us have gone soft, so need the parallel park work out (I used to have a big car without power steering)

[Engineer1]

GroundEffect said:

will-w said:

If Peugeot actually made and sold it for less than £25,000 then I think they'd be onto a winner.

Sigh.

Then out of business within a month there is no advantage for them to sell it at a loss, Bugatti can because they are VAG's Halo project but a mass market car selling at a loss is not sustainable look at Rover.

[scarble]

RenesisEvo said:

I do hope the manufacturers can bring ~800kg hatches to the market, something about a fairly practical mid-size car with a small but feisty engine really appeals. Imagine the Ford Focus 1.0 ecoboost but with that level of weight reduction. Perhaps the future isn't looking quite so disastrous for the enthusiast.
And something I didn't mention earlier - forget electric vs hydraulic steering that has been the hot topic this year across many car segments, welcome back (with open arms) unassisted steering! I'd happily live with the purity of it, despite the suspension geometry compromises - and let's face it, most of us have gone soft, so need the parallel park work out (I used to have a big car without power steering)

Agree with everything but the boost bit. Until they can solve the lag (say with torque in-fill from an electric motor).
But even then.. I'm not sure that for pure driving involvement a hybrid powertrain can work, though I think the only hybrid I've driven is a Prius.. I just.. I don't know if anything else can compare to a feisty n/a engine.. and it remains to be seen if the fuel economy and emissions figures of teeny boosted engines and/or diesels and/or hybrids really stand up to real world driving.
Autocar had a 90hp turbo something on extended test, I forget what, possibly a multiair or twinair of some variety.. which they claimed only managed 45ish mpg in the real world, which is roughly the same as I had from a 1.6 n/a Zetec-E, which oddly enough produces the same power but weighs slightly less than a 1.0 ecoboost (or at least, iirc, autocar said so when they were talking about the eco-boost caterham).
For 99% of driving and drivers these things are fine, but I just don't think they'll give you the silly grin you get from a sneaky b-road blast, I don't think we'll ever get proper predictable and progressive throttle response as it tweens from motor to ICE and/or goes on and off boost. Or maybe this is all imaginary emotive bs.

Good call on the power steering. Bin it. Aircon too.
Added benefit, if you introduce an electric water pump too, you quickly simplify belt changes

Edited by scarble on Wednesday 30th October 16:30

[howertings]

scarble said:

Agree with everything but the boost bit. Until they can solve the lag (say with torque in-fill from an electric motor).
Ok, in all seriousness, I'm not sure that for pure driving involvement a hybrid powertrain can work, though I think the only hybrid I've driven is a Prius.. I just.. I don't know if anything else can compare to a feisty n/a engine.. and it remains to be seen if the fuel economy and emissions figures of teeny boosted engines and/or diesels and/or hybrids really stand up to real world driving.
Autocar had a 90hp turbo something which they claimed only managed 45ish mpg in the real world, which is roughly the same as I had from a 1.6 n/a Zetec-E, which oddly enough produces the same power but weighs slightly less than a 1.0 ecoboost (autocar covered this when they were talking about the eco-boost caterham).
For 99% of driving and drivers these things are fine, but I just don't think they'll give you the silly grin you get from a sneaky b-road blast, I don't think we'll ever get proper predictable and progressive throttle response as it tweens from motor to ICE and/or goes on and off boost. Or maybe this is all imaginary emotive bs.

Good call on the power steering though.

I laugh when I imagine the stony faces from the marketing side of the table when at the meeting the engineers announce that they are proposing to do away with power steering? Oh for a webcam..

[RenesisEvo]

scarble said:

Agree with everything but the boost bit. Until they can solve the lag (say with torque in-fill from an electric motor).
But even then.. I'm not sure that for pure driving involvement a hybrid powertrain can work, though I think the only hybrid I've driven is a Prius.. I just.. I don't know if anything else can compare to a feisty n/a engine.. and it remains to be seen if the fuel economy and emissions figures of teeny boosted engines and/or diesels and/or hybrids really stand up to real world driving.

All good points, and I know what you mean about throttle response. I'm considering switching from a heavily turbo'd car to something N/A, partly for that reason. I did want to mention in my previous post about having a revvy 3-pot without a turbo, not just for response/driving pleasure, but also because with low vehicle mass you won't need the torque from a turbo to pull it along - so you can remove the turbo, intercooler etc and save more weight, which further aids a small engine. The virtuous circle of lightweight is fascinating to me as an engineer.

I've not driven a hybrid either, but a Nissan Leaf I tested was quite responsive when not in Eco mode; perhaps you could tune the throttle to be much sharper, but I suspect it is set up to discourage quick changes and wide 'openings'.

[cptsideways]

800kg and no power steering is fine trust me, tbh you would hardly know especially with 145 tyres

[scarble]

Then it's settled!

[mikEsprit]

J-P said:

cookie1600 said:

The Crack Fox said:

If only Peugeot had the balls to actually make stuff like this. But they dont't. And that's why they're in the st.

How much do you reckon a vehicle like that would cost, even if they could productionise it? Would it be a profitable thing? doubtful, would many people actually buy it at say £35,000 or £45,000?

It's more about learning what can be done for future models and introducing small incremental changes to new cars I guess.

I would 0-60 in 8s and 149MPG - yes please! Plus all that cool tech? Can you imagine what that would be like in a car with a lighter platform in the first place?

I think it would result in less difference from the start weight to the end weight, wouldn't it?

[dobly]

cptsideways said:

800kg and no power steering is fine trust me, tbh you would hardly know especially with 145 tyres

The 880kg of my 1988 Honda CRX (with 185 section tyres) was better for having no power steering - IMHO. What has changed since then is safety and crash protection - whether a car can be built with 2013+ crash protection weighing around 800kg has yet to be proven.
The 2013 hybrid equivalent, the CR-Z weighs in at 1170kg..... how much of the extra 290kg is hybrid, and how much is for safety I don't know.

Edited by dobly on Thursday 31st October 03:43