Big Fast Fords is there a Market

Big Fast Fords is there a Market

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Lowtimer

4,286 posts

167 months

Monday 11th November 2013
quotequote all
There's no market of substance any more for new Mondeos or larger Ford saloons/ hatches with powerful petrol engines. The last 3.0 V6 was a terrific car going back a few years but hardly anyone bought those, and the 2.5T version of the more recent Mondeo also sold in tiny numbers.

Mashedpotatoes

Original Poster:

1,344 posts

147 months

Monday 11th November 2013
quotequote all
A point I have over looked is resale value being that most modern big cars are sold on lease these days the depreciation aspect is the big factor in the monthly payment . As the big German exotica hold good residuals the monthly payments can be kept lower. Sadly the residual of a big ford will be terrible making it even less attractive. It ain't looking good.

Matt UK

17,649 posts

199 months

Monday 11th November 2013
quotequote all
Big Fast Fords, is there a Market?

Well if there were, I dare say Ford would be the first to fill it. Which goes some way to answering the question.

Devil2575

13,400 posts

187 months

Monday 11th November 2013
quotequote all
There clearly isn't a market, if there was Ford would be exploiting it.

It's the wrong badge, plus people who are more bothered about performance than a premium badge are also more likely to want a hot hatch.

The real issue is that people just don't want big engined petrol cars that much any more, even premium brands. BMW hardly sells any petrol engined 5 series and aside from the 335i and M3, the biggest engined petrol 3 series is a 2 litre Turbo. Even then most 3 series sold are diesels. Same with Audi.

People who can afford to run something that sacrfices economy for power and who want a big car do not want a Ford. Or at least those who do are the exception.

alangla

4,723 posts

180 months

Monday 11th November 2013
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I'm still surprised Ford haven't looked at bringing some of the Aussie FPV Falcons over here as GM did with the Holden Monaro. If anything, there's probably more of a market for the Ford than there is/was for the Holden.

Yodafone

427 posts

204 months

Monday 11th November 2013
quotequote all
ewenm said:
Most people would rather the lower-powered German over the high-powered Ford/Vauxhall.

Maybe the global Mustang that is touted as in the pipeline will offer something...
Wrong badge, everyone wants German, they don"t care about how much power it has or how it handles they just want it to be flash.

Was looking at autotrader site with someone at work and he was after a A5 S line diesel, spotted S5 and straight away he said but its not a S line :|

He ended up buying E class coupe diesel with AMG bodykit and wheels, I said to him the proper AMG sound amazing, he turned around to me and said it is a proper AMG, hate the way all brands have eroded thier heritage but I suppose if they didn't they won't be so profitable and may not be around.

tim2100

6,279 posts

256 months

Monday 11th November 2013
quotequote all
Ford did the ST220 Mondeo. and following that a 2.5 turbo in the Mondeo.

The ST220 was popular amongst enthusiasts but not at new prices.

I don't think either sold well.

aarondbs

843 posts

145 months

Monday 11th November 2013
quotequote all
How about this lovely thing from a bygone era.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1979-FORD-GRANADA-SAPPHI...

I spotted it lats night and put it up on the two tone thread. It looks very classy to me now and I would buy Ford for similar money to a Merc or BMW if I believed it was as good a car (good as defined by my needs and desires at the time of buying). I have had a rusty Merc and a broken BMW so the quality myth is busted for me.

I am NOT saying that Ford should bring out THIS Granada but that they once were capable of making and selling decent big cars in this sector. Mind you I am guessing that the Granada is probably no bigger than a current Mondeo.

V8 Fettler

7,019 posts

131 months

Monday 11th November 2013
quotequote all
RHD Mustang for 2014 (?). Improving GB economy = feel good factor = buy a Mustang. Just the name = ££££, or is that just for those of us aged 30+ (cough).

XJ Flyer

5,526 posts

129 months

Monday 11th November 2013
quotequote all
ewenm said:
Mashedpotatoes said:
LuS1fer said:
The VXR8 didn't sell - they were down to £25k new at one time so there is the answer.
I think a 6L V8 would put most off but 3.5 V6 turbo is more A La mode
It has got the wrong badge. This matters to many, hence good sales of low-end BMW/Audi/Merc models.
It's a worrying trend when the so called 'performance' market is obviously putting the badge ahead of the car and seems to believe that the overstressed screamer idea is better than the large capacity torque monster idea.

av185

18,433 posts

126 months

Monday 11th November 2013
quotequote all
As others have said, there is no possibility that Ford or any other "white goods" car manufacturer will reintroduce a larger model. The Scorpio was the last of the line....and its not hard to see why.

Even the likes of BMW and Merc struggle with a proportion of their larger models and as small cars get bigger and finance deals more attractive for an increasingly badge conscious consumer, it is a clearly a dwindling few that want to be seen driving "low rent poor prestige barges".

And to think I used to get all excited dreaming of the Consul GT in "The Sweeney"..........

XJ Flyer

5,526 posts

129 months

Monday 11th November 2013
quotequote all
av185 said:
As others have said, there is no possibility that Ford or any other "white goods" car manufacturer will reintroduce a larger model. The Scorpio was the last of the line....and its not hard to see why.

Even the likes of BMW and Merc struggle with a proportion of their larger models and as small cars get bigger and finance deals more attractive for an increasingly badge conscious consumer, it is a clearly a dwindling few that want to be seen driving "low rent poor prestige barges".

And to think I used to get all excited dreaming of the Consul GT in "The Sweeney"..........
There's another side to the issue in which it's more a case that the market has lost the plot and the large manufacturers are just pandering to the situation.IE a performance saloon isn't the same thing as a 'barge' prestige or otherwise and any real performance saloon buyer would ( should ) put that difference ahead of the badge that's stuck on it in that a Ford or GM performance saloon like a manual VXR8 is better than a prestige German barge like a 5/7 series fitted as standard with a no option slush box.

As for the Consul GT like most other volume 'performance saloons' at the time it was compromised with a relatively small 6 cylinder engine when it needed a big V8 in it.Which would have put the volume performance car manufacturers offerings ahead of the so called 'prestige' competition.Like today the domestic market probably being more driven by the purchase and running cost disadvantages of such larger engined options.Just as was the case then,in the case of the VXR8 it's probably that issue not the badge which is the main problem.IE a performance saloon which should be targeted at the volume performance market at a volume price but which is hindered by prestige market type taxation/purchase and running costs.None of which is in the control of the volume manufacturers like GM.

Futuramic

1,763 posts

204 months

Monday 11th November 2013
quotequote all
aarondbs said:
How about this lovely thing from a bygone era.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1979-FORD-GRANADA-SAPPHI...

I spotted it lats night and put it up on the two tone thread. It looks very classy to me now and I would buy Ford for similar money to a Merc or BMW if I believed it was as good a car (good as defined by my needs and desires at the time of buying). I have had a rusty Merc and a broken BMW so the quality myth is busted for me.

I am NOT saying that Ford should bring out THIS Granada but that they once were capable of making and selling decent big cars in this sector. Mind you I am guessing that the Granada is probably no bigger than a current Mondeo.
It's a LOT smaller than a current Mondeo. They were designed to fit on European roads of the time, as such will go into a standard sized single garage or parking space without issue. They weren't really much bigger than a contemporary Cortina. Nor were they fast, if that's a non-injection V6 it'll be packing all of 110-120 odd BHP. Not much when driving a sludge filled three speed. Lovely cars, but just because they had the undefinable other quality. Gravitas? Nothing that can be constrained by dull musings on specific torque or suspension setups anyway.

okie592

2,711 posts

166 months

Monday 11th November 2013
quotequote all
The new mustang is coming to the Uk.

Watch as everyone says oh my god this is amazing. But then watch it flop. Then watch people go, such a shame it flopped was a great car. Same old same old. It will happen

Same thing will happen to the gt86. It's the car everyone wanted. No turbo and not too much power and all I ever see is. I wish It had a turbo.

XJ Flyer

5,526 posts

129 months

Monday 11th November 2013
quotequote all
okie592 said:
The new mustang is coming to the Uk.

Watch as everyone says oh my god this is amazing. But then watch it flop. Then watch people go, such a shame it flopped was a great car. Same old same old. It will happen
There's probably no doubt about the usual result but,like the VXR8,it's not related to it being the wrong product or having the wrong badge.It's simply all about the bottom line regarding UK purchase costs after taxes and exchange rate issues and unfair insurance loading on such non EU imports,and euro fuel costs v US type ones.

Roo

11,503 posts

206 months

Monday 11th November 2013
quotequote all
300bhp/ton said:
I suspect you can't really come up with a figure, although as a trend any US cars sold in the UK tend to simply $ for £ and retain the same numbers.

But if you are correct and saying $39k gets you one on the road in the US, then that is retail price, not cost, it has been shipped to it's final destination and presumably some kind of tax paid.

This means, if Ford wanted to, there must be margin to sell them here for £26k. Sure the shipping will be slightly more, but it's not going to be thousands, plus they'll be paying shipping in USD and likely get a bulk rate individual importers can only dream of.

Euro type approval and maybe RHD conversion costs might need to be accounted somehow, but no idea what this would really run too.

But remember Jaguar and Land Rover manage to build in the UK, ship to the US and still retail them cheaper than they are here. Doing it the other way round should mean lower costs and no reason for a massively inflated price.
US sales prices are plus tax. You of all people should know that.

You can't look at a price in the US and convert to sterling and say that's what it should sell for.

You're own example of JLR prices proves that point.

It's different markets with different economic pressures/ expectancies/values.

It's like arguing black is white and night is day.

vtgts300kw

597 posts

176 months

Monday 11th November 2013
quotequote all
Monaro5.7 said:
For me Ford should make this avalible throw special order.

http://news.drive.com.au/drive/motor-news/coming-s...

R/H/D already to go.

And made by a UK company wink

Edited by Monaro5.7 on Monday 11th November 16:57
FPV is owned by Ford Australia now, well until it closes in 2014.

XJ Flyer

5,526 posts

129 months

Monday 11th November 2013
quotequote all
Roo said:
300bhp/ton said:
I suspect you can't really come up with a figure, although as a trend any US cars sold in the UK tend to simply $ for £ and retain the same numbers.

But if you are correct and saying $39k gets you one on the road in the US, then that is retail price, not cost, it has been shipped to it's final destination and presumably some kind of tax paid.

This means, if Ford wanted to, there must be margin to sell them here for £26k. Sure the shipping will be slightly more, but it's not going to be thousands, plus they'll be paying shipping in USD and likely get a bulk rate individual importers can only dream of.

Euro type approval and maybe RHD conversion costs might need to be accounted somehow, but no idea what this would really run too.

But remember Jaguar and Land Rover manage to build in the UK, ship to the US and still retail them cheaper than they are here. Doing it the other way round should mean lower costs and no reason for a massively inflated price.
US sales prices are plus tax. You of all people should know that.

You can't look at a price in the US and convert to sterling and say that's what it should sell for.

You're own example of JLR prices proves that point.

It's different markets with different economic pressures/ expectancies/values.
Which really translates as usual into rip off Britain.
In the case of US/Australian imports the combination of duty and VAT effectively makes such imports uneconomic on the UK market and that's before insurance and fuel costs are taken into account.

Roo

11,503 posts

206 months

Monday 11th November 2013
quotequote all
XJ Flyer said:
Which really translates as usual into rip off Britain.
In the case of US/Australian imports the combination of duty and VAT effectively makes such imports uneconomic on the UK market and that's before insurance and fuel costs are taken into account.
Insurance and fuel costs are irrelevant.

All goods pay duty and VAT (or equivalent) on import. No matter which country they're going to.

Want a new Mustang in Australia? No problem. Get it converted to RHD in New Zealand, or it will be illegal, and then bring it in.

It's only going to cost AU$100,000 by the time it's on the road. What's the problem. Except it's double the completely irrelevant price of the same product in its domestic market.

You can't compare the price of a product in its domestic market with its price in another market unless you also take into account average wage and cost of living.

Oranges cost less in Spain than the UK because the infrastructure costs of selling them to the customer are lower due to lower labour/transport costs.

Bibbs

3,733 posts

209 months

Monday 11th November 2013
quotequote all
XJ Flyer said:
Which really translates as usual into rip off Britain.
In the case of US/Australian imports the combination of duty and VAT effectively makes such imports uneconomic on the UK market and that's before insurance and fuel costs are taken into account.
Try buying one in Australia.

In the UK these cars are cheap compared to the UK market.

HSVs were sold as the VXR8 at about 75% the price compared to source.