Big Fast Fords is there a Market

[Bibbs]

Roo said:

Want a new Mustang in Australia? No problem. Get it converted to RHD in New Zealand, or it will be illegal, and then bring it in.

Or bring it into WA where LHD isn't an issue.

[Hitch78]

Falcon dies next year and Holden based Monaro is expected to go the same way in 2015 or 2016. Even aussies no longer want to buy big powerful cars from non-premium marques and there is a strong tradition of buying home-grown here.

Monaro5.7 said:

LuS1fer said:

The VXR8 didn't sell - they were down to £25k new at one time so there is the answer.

AHHHHH but Vauxhall learnt from this and now only bring in demo cars and then you place your order for what ever car you want.

This allows them to offer all colours and models inc the estate version and ute.

Now Ford could do the same as i would love a Ford Falcon Boss 400 from Oz

This is what Ford should make avalible throw special order.

http://news.drive.com.au/drive/motor-news/coming-s...

Edited by Monaro5.7 on Monday 11th November 16:52

[Bibbs]

Mashedpotatoes said:

I think a 6L V8 would put most off but 3.5 V6 turbo is more A La mode

The Falcon comes in a 4.0 I6, or a 4.0 I6 Turbo.

Still doesn't sell in enough numbers to keep it viable.

And if Ford thought it would sell in the UK, I'm sure they'd try.

Instead people want the cheapest poverty spec BMW diesel.

[Bibbs]

Hitch78 said:

Falcon dies next year and Holden based Monaro is expected to go the same way in 2015 or 2016. Even aussies no longer want to buy big powerful cars from non-premium marques and there is a strong tradition of buying home-grown here.

Monaro went a while back (2005), you are thinking of the Commodore. VF is planned to 2016, but then who knows. It looks a great car, but people are buying SUVs instead.

• Apparently* we'll be getting the Mustang/Comaro to replace the Falcon/Commodore.

[Bibbs]

Hitch78 said:

Falcon dies next year and Holden based Monaro is expected to go the same way in 2015 or 2016. Even aussies no longer want to buy big powerful cars from non-premium marques and there is a strong tradition of buying home-grown here.

Monaro went a while back (2005), you are thinking of the Commodore. VF is planned to 2016, but then who knows. It looks a great car, but people are buying SUVs instead.

• Apparently* we'll be getting the Mustang/Camaro to replace the Falcon/Commodore.

Sales (from Wiki) :-

Edited by Bibbs on Monday 11th November 23:44

[XJ Flyer]

Roo said:

XJ Flyer said:

Which really translates as usual into rip off Britain.
In the case of US/Australian imports the combination of duty and VAT effectively makes such imports uneconomic on the UK market and that's before insurance and fuel costs are taken into account.

Insurance and fuel costs are irrelevant.

All goods pay duty and VAT (or equivalent) on import. No matter which country they're going to.

Want a new Mustang in Australia? No problem. Get it converted to RHD in New Zealand, or it will be illegal, and then bring it in.

It's only going to cost AU$100,000 by the time it's on the road. What's the problem. Except it's double the completely irrelevant price of the same product in its domestic market.

You can't compare the price of a product in its domestic market with its price in another market unless you also take into account average wage and cost of living.

Oranges cost less in Spain than the UK because the infrastructure costs of selling them to the customer are lower due to lower labour/transport costs.

I don't think that you'd pay 30% in VAT and Duty on a new BMW or a Merc,unlike on a new US import.The wage and cost of living difference is taken account of in the exchange rate although unfortunately for VXR8 buyers the pound/AUS dollar rate is distorted by the difference between what is now a flat lining UK economy v a much better performing Australian one.The fact is US imports have been subject to rip off levels of taxation and insurance loadings for years.The big mistake here being the large volume manufacturers like Ford and GM not producing such cars locally to at least avoid those issues.Although the insurance and fuel costs issue would still have applied in the case of V8 Granadas for example just as would be the case now if the VXR8 was produced here.

[XJ Flyer]

Bibbs said:

XJ Flyer said:

Which really translates as usual into rip off Britain.
In the case of US/Australian imports the combination of duty and VAT effectively makes such imports uneconomic on the UK market and that's before insurance and fuel costs are taken into account.

Try buying one in Australia.

In the UK these cars are cheap compared to the UK market.

HSVs were sold as the VXR8 at about 75% the price compared to source.

I'd doubt if that was the case after purchase taxes had been applied.If I remember right the price of a VXR8 jumped from an already expensive £35,000+ to a totally unviable £50,000+.I could understand GM trying to hang on in the UK market by trying to subsidise the rip off UK import taxation rates but that still doesn't help the issue of running costs when it's here.As for Australia there's not much point in importing US made cars when the Australian manufacturers are already effectively producing them anyway.IE supercharged VXR8 Bathurst v Cadillac CTSV.

[Bibbs]

XJ Flyer said:

VXR8 jumped from an already expensive £35,000+ to a totally unviable £50,000+

The first VEs sold were 35k and 50k .. Two different models, the 50k had a LOT of extra goodies.

The new VF is 50k in the UK. It's over 100k AUD on the road in Australia. - The exchange rate is hovering about 1.7 / .6 at the moment.

Shipping it to the other side of the planet, and save 10k GBP.

XJ Flyer said:

supercharged VXR8 Bathurst

We don't get that option off the shelf here. That car is all aftermarket.

XJ Flyer said:

As for Australia there's not much point in importing US made cars when the Australian manufacturers are already effectively producing them anyway.

But they are. The Australian car industry is effectively dead. Even Toyota is looking to opt out.

Edited by Bibbs on Monday 11th November 23:52

[300bhp/ton]

Roo said:

US sales prices are plus tax. You of all people should know that.

Didn't I say something about this? I didn't check the Ford website, so just took the figure provided by the op and added a caveat....

Roo said:

You can't look at a price in the US and convert to sterling and say that's what it should sell for.

Well yes you can. Only it seems to upset people.

Roo said:

You're own example of JLR prices proves that point.

Yes it proves we get ripped off and over charged. As they still make profit on every vehicle they sell in the US and have higher shipping charges. Yet still manage a lower retail price.

Roo said:

It's different markets with different economic pressures/ expectancies/values.

It's like arguing black is white and night is day.

It might well be like arguing that. But at the end of the day it's just profiteering and using BS excuses to justify it.

For example, how much would it cost you to import a Camaro and SVA it and add some profit on top.

Are you honestly saying that if you could pay less for shipping, pay less for the SVA work and purchase the car at cost price rather than retail price that you couldn't then sell it for a lot cheaper than you do now but retain the same profit?

[Coatesy351]

aarondbs said:

How about this lovely thing from a bygone era.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1979-FORD-GRANADA-SAPPHI...

I spotted it lats night and put it up on the two tone thread. It looks very classy to me now and I would buy Ford for similar money to a Merc or BMW if I believed it was as good a car (good as defined by my needs and desires at the time of buying). I have had a rusty Merc and a broken BMW so the quality myth is busted for me.

I am NOT saying that Ford should bring out THIS Granada but that they once were capable of making and selling decent big cars in this sector. Mind you I am guessing that the Granada is probably no bigger than a current Mondeo.

Needs more motor

[Devil2575]

Bibbs said:

Instead people want the cheapest poverty spec BMW diesel.

I don't think this is the case.

People want diesels but not necessarily poverty spec. For the average driver diesel suits their needs perfectly. Lots of torque so plenty of grunt on tap with minimum effort (so a bit like a large capacity petrol engine), decent fuel economy and cheapish tax. Diesel is the engine of choice for the large majority of drivers these days and it has nothing to do with badge. The majority of Mondeos sold are diesels.

You can get a BMW 320d with 181 bhp and 280 lb/ft of torque. It will do 0-60 in 7.3 seconds and 146 mph cost £30 a year to tax and has a quoted combined mpg of 62. Ok so it might not do that but it's going to get 45 mpg+ without even trying:
http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/realmpg/bmw/3-series-f...
Even the 318 has plenty of go. I can completely understand why most people opt for engines like this over large capacity petrols, regardless of their budget.

Older Petrol heads who want a big engined saloon car would also rather get a used BMW than a new Mondeo.

[Prince Rupert]

People are badge snobs and would rather have a small engined 3 series, c-class or A4 that looks like the equivalent M/AMG/RS than an all singing Ford/Vauxhall. The few who would but the Ford/Vauxhall don't because of the cost of fuel these days. Shame really, I miss the days when a rep would live and die by the row of letters and numbers on his (and it always was a him) bootlid.

[TommoAE86]

Maybe Ford and Vauxhall need to nudge people towards the market abit? Maybe for some it wouldn't take that much of a nudge for someone to thing "hang this German badged car, I want one of those".

Soooo Ford and Vauxhall need to bring them over here, then take them touring car racing, then they need to create a rivalry where fans will break out into big fights around the edge of Thruxton and Brands Hatch, so you need Plato in one car type and Neil in t'other.

(I'm glossing over the fact that this is unviable given the new BTCC rules of smaller more efficient engines, but I like to dream)

(I'm also ignoring the above mentioned points about depreciation/badge snobbery/VED etc)

[Devil2575]

Prince Rupert said:

People are badge snobs and would rather have a small engined 3 series, c-class or A4 that looks like the equivalent M/AMG/RS than an all singing Ford/Vauxhall. The few who would but the Ford/Vauxhall don't because of the cost of fuel these days. Shame really, I miss the days when a rep would live and die by the row of letters and numbers on his (and it always was a him) bootlid.

I don't think badge snobbery has as much to do with it as people say. No one buys a 320d instead of an ST220. People don't buy big petrol engined Mondeos these days because people don't generally buy big engined petrol cars of any make. Mr and Mrs 320d didn't choose the BMW over a big engined Ford and if badge meant nothing to them they'd have bought a Mondeo TDCI.

Generally the only big engined petrol cars being sold now are proper performance models such as Porsches, M3s, XJRs, RS4s.

These are expensive motors that cost a lot to run and the only people who can afford them simply don't want a Ford or a Vauxhall.

For most other people they simply don't want a big petrol guzzling engine because they aren't petrol heads.

People buy Audis and BMWs because they want to fell like the are doing well. They want to buy into the image. There will be some badge snobbery about but not as much as some people think IMHO.

Big engined Ford Saloons haven't been killed off by German poverty spec diesel saloons, they've been killed off by changing atttitudes wrt the environment, fuel prices and changing requirements for a family car.

[GroundEffect]

Mashedpotatoes said:

Looks like Ford are resigned to a life of hatch backs and repmobiles
Roo were you referring to the Scorpio when you said look what happened last time they tried it ?

And they make some of the very best

[XJ Flyer]

Coatesy351 said:

aarondbs said:

How about this lovely thing from a bygone era.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1979-FORD-GRANADA-SAPPHI...

I spotted it lats night and put it up on the two tone thread. It looks very classy to me now and I would buy Ford for similar money to a Merc or BMW if I believed it was as good a car (good as defined by my needs and desires at the time of buying). I have had a rusty Merc and a broken BMW so the quality myth is busted for me.

I am NOT saying that Ford should bring out THIS Granada but that they once were capable of making and selling decent big cars in this sector. Mind you I am guessing that the Granada is probably no bigger than a current Mondeo.

Needs more motor

In the case of big rwd Ford and Vauxhall saloons it's probably always been a case that their designers tried to lead their customers to water in the form of making them easily capable of accepting a big V8 but they couldn't make those customers drink in the form of creating sufficient demand in a country where a 3-4 litre 6 cylinder was/is considered a 'big' engine option.Ironically that then lead to the situation whereby manufacturers like BMW were able to charge loads of money for an inferior product with the badge then taking precedence over the product to add insult to injury.UK fuel and insurance costs can probably be blamed for contributing to a lot of that situation in which working class buyers were priced out of demanding decent working class performance cars.The same now seems to be happening in Australia at least.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=egq5W9e5qjo

Edited by XJ Flyer on Tuesday 12th November 16:16

[XJ Flyer]

Devil2575 said:

Prince Rupert said:

People are badge snobs and would rather have a small engined 3 series, c-class or A4 that looks like the equivalent M/AMG/RS than an all singing Ford/Vauxhall. The few who would but the Ford/Vauxhall don't because of the cost of fuel these days. Shame really, I miss the days when a rep would live and die by the row of letters and numbers on his (and it always was a him) bootlid.

I don't think badge snobbery has as much to do with it as people say. No one buys a 320d instead of an ST220. People don't buy big petrol engined Mondeos these days because people don't generally buy big engined petrol cars of any make. Mr and Mrs 320d didn't choose the BMW over a big engined Ford and if badge meant nothing to them they'd have bought a Mondeo TDCI.

Generally the only big engined petrol cars being sold now are proper performance models such as Porsches, M3s, XJRs, RS4s.

These are expensive motors that cost a lot to run and the only people who can afford them simply don't want a Ford or a Vauxhall.

For most other people they simply don't want a big petrol guzzling engine because they aren't petrol heads.

People buy Audis and BMWs because they want to fell like the are doing well. They want to buy into the image. There will be some badge snobbery about but not as much as some people think IMHO.

Big engined Ford Saloons haven't been killed off by German poverty spec diesel saloons, they've been killed off by changing atttitudes wrt the environment, fuel prices and changing requirements for a family car.

The 'petrol heads' have always been there.It's just that the average working class 'petol head' can't afford to run a decent Ford or Vauxhall.Therefore the demand isn't there to create the required economies of scale to produce big engined cars in the required volumes to create the right purchase price.IE unfortunately it's a self defeating circle for all concerned both for the volume manufacturers and their potential working class customers.Which explains why those working class buyers have been forced into 'hot hatches' based on economy poverty spec shopping cars and for the company car users and the rich buyers it's all about having the 'right badge' not what's under the bonnet.

[LuS1fer]

It's also a VED issue for most. Big Fords and vauxhall appealed to people who liked power but "normal" running costs. Mr Mondeo would have an apoplectic fit if he had to pay £900 VED, it's just not in his nature. I paid £400 first year on a Mondeo 2.0 petrol but only because the car itself was half price.

[DonkeyApple]

Devil2575 said:

There clearly isn't a market, if there was Ford would be exploiting it.

It's the wrong badge, plus people who are more bothered about performance than a premium badge are also more likely to want a hot hatch.

The real issue is that people just don't want big engined petrol cars that much any more, even premium brands. BMW hardly sells any petrol engined 5 series and aside from the 335i and M3, the biggest engined petrol 3 series is a 2 litre Turbo. Even then most 3 series sold are diesels. Same with Audi.

People who can afford to run something that sacrfices economy for power and who want a big car do not want a Ford. Or at least those who do are the exception.

Sadly, I think that is very much the case. And also, Ford knew this years ago so bought several European manufacturers to fill that void.

[JDMDrifter]

I'd say there is but the market is very small.

I can see the attraction of the BMW/Audi saloons, they are lovely places to sit and feel like a very quality product. They are fast, economical and are very multipurpose.

Everyone loves a fast ford but it will never have the refinement of the Germans.