RE: Fast should mean scary: Tell Me I'm Wrong
Discussion
I've fallen into this trap....
By far the most exciting car I've ever driven was my mum's Mini 850, immediately after passing my test. Since then, my cars, with the occasional embarrassing exception, have been more and more powerful. This culminated in an F355, which was exciting to own and was great to be seen in, but it was so damn fast that I never, EVER felt that I got near its limits (although I span it once on track, but that was more down to ignorance and over-exuberance than playing with the limits)
After the 355, I ended up in a Fiat Coupe, which I still have and is up to around 480bhp. Its monstrously fast (way faster than the 355) but its just not scary (although passengers often admit to being petrified if I've used all the performance). I've never had it flat out in top gear, so I have no idea what it'll do (a VMax day beckons).
For me, the scary part is that from standstill, I can be at a speed sufficient to invoke a ban within ten seconds. Add another ten seconds, and I could be looking at a custodial sentence. Because of this, I'm reluctant to use much of the performance. I've been pulled over for "driving like a madman" when in fact, I was on a low boost setting and taking it relatively easy.
Its weird, because I was faced with a similar choice a few years ago when I wanted to get back on a bike. The obvious choice was a Jap 600 or 750. However, I wanted my kicks at sub-ban speeds, so I bought a Buell X1 Lightning - inspired move - 100bhp and 100lb-ft meant that it was really quick, but only up to about 80-ish. Because of the well-sorted handling, I could hassle much faster bike in the twisties. Sure, they'd bugger off on the straights, but I was back with them at the next series of bends.
There's only one car that I can think of that has the same approach - an Elise. Underpowered (by 'normal' sports car standards) but amazing handling and entertainment at legal(ish) speeds. My brother has a Series 2 111S, which I've driven many times - truly sublime. My only problem is that I'd struggle to get in and out of it, and I rather like a few creature comforts (carpets, for example....)
Perhaps I need to borrow it for a couple of months to see how I can live with it - Bro?.....
By far the most exciting car I've ever driven was my mum's Mini 850, immediately after passing my test. Since then, my cars, with the occasional embarrassing exception, have been more and more powerful. This culminated in an F355, which was exciting to own and was great to be seen in, but it was so damn fast that I never, EVER felt that I got near its limits (although I span it once on track, but that was more down to ignorance and over-exuberance than playing with the limits)
After the 355, I ended up in a Fiat Coupe, which I still have and is up to around 480bhp. Its monstrously fast (way faster than the 355) but its just not scary (although passengers often admit to being petrified if I've used all the performance). I've never had it flat out in top gear, so I have no idea what it'll do (a VMax day beckons).
For me, the scary part is that from standstill, I can be at a speed sufficient to invoke a ban within ten seconds. Add another ten seconds, and I could be looking at a custodial sentence. Because of this, I'm reluctant to use much of the performance. I've been pulled over for "driving like a madman" when in fact, I was on a low boost setting and taking it relatively easy.
Its weird, because I was faced with a similar choice a few years ago when I wanted to get back on a bike. The obvious choice was a Jap 600 or 750. However, I wanted my kicks at sub-ban speeds, so I bought a Buell X1 Lightning - inspired move - 100bhp and 100lb-ft meant that it was really quick, but only up to about 80-ish. Because of the well-sorted handling, I could hassle much faster bike in the twisties. Sure, they'd bugger off on the straights, but I was back with them at the next series of bends.
There's only one car that I can think of that has the same approach - an Elise. Underpowered (by 'normal' sports car standards) but amazing handling and entertainment at legal(ish) speeds. My brother has a Series 2 111S, which I've driven many times - truly sublime. My only problem is that I'd struggle to get in and out of it, and I rather like a few creature comforts (carpets, for example....)
Perhaps I need to borrow it for a couple of months to see how I can live with it - Bro?.....
anonymous said:
[redacted]
But why would you want a new one if they're all too namby pamby? Seriously though I do see your point, but I'm pragmatic on this subject. 'Progress' is inevitable. Cars are much better than they ever have been at everything, perhaps with the exception of pleasing the guys who want tin foil A-pillars The reality is, from a market perspective, only a tiny tiny percentage of car buyers are actually willing to sacrifice their comforts and crash safety. Controversial question: why is it deemed ok to hoon around at 60mph on the edge of adhesion, just so long as you're driving below the speed limit? Yes you'd maybe cause less damage if you do crash, but then crashing isn't acceptable in any circumstance, and the irony is that you are far more likely to die in an old 80's hatch.
Don't misunderstand me, I do agree in principle with the article, but I'm in the "what do you expect?" camp". Cars are advancing for the better, and those who don't agree have plenty of other options. Options which they very rarely choose when it comes to actually getting the cheque book out. I reckon 80% of those who blather on about the 205 GTi have never owned one and never will.
Since when was buying fast cars about driving pleasure?
If it was we'd all be driving Caterhams and Elises.
Most buy fast cars for a variety of reasons most commonly the status, to get noticed, for the prestige, to make them feel special, to reward them for years of hard work, to display their wealth and success. Driving pleasure comes very low down the list. So pdk and electric steering become commonplace without so much as a whimper.
Me? I have a Caterham and an Exige! If I cared about looking cool I'd get a classic car.
Totally agree with the comment that the last days of the great internal combustion engines are being wasted on autos. But I don't blame the GTR. Porsche are the real villans. I had to admire their strict manual-only stance for the GT3. When Ferrari (creators of arguable the greatest manual gearboxes of them all) dumped manuals suddenly it looked like Porsche were the last great Marque making cars for real enthusiasts. To introduce pdk to the GT3 I have to accept is necessary to hit their sales targets but to make it pdk-only deeply disappointing move and reveals Porsche to be more interested in making great profits than great drivers cars. If they can be stubborn about rear engines for 50 years you'd think they of all makers could hang on to the manual for a few more years?!
If it was we'd all be driving Caterhams and Elises.
Most buy fast cars for a variety of reasons most commonly the status, to get noticed, for the prestige, to make them feel special, to reward them for years of hard work, to display their wealth and success. Driving pleasure comes very low down the list. So pdk and electric steering become commonplace without so much as a whimper.
Me? I have a Caterham and an Exige! If I cared about looking cool I'd get a classic car.
Totally agree with the comment that the last days of the great internal combustion engines are being wasted on autos. But I don't blame the GTR. Porsche are the real villans. I had to admire their strict manual-only stance for the GT3. When Ferrari (creators of arguable the greatest manual gearboxes of them all) dumped manuals suddenly it looked like Porsche were the last great Marque making cars for real enthusiasts. To introduce pdk to the GT3 I have to accept is necessary to hit their sales targets but to make it pdk-only deeply disappointing move and reveals Porsche to be more interested in making great profits than great drivers cars. If they can be stubborn about rear engines for 50 years you'd think they of all makers could hang on to the manual for a few more years?!
What is it with this obsession on Pistonheads for the manual gearbox? Haha 
I've witnessed many forms of elitism, but looking down one's nose at people who want an automatic gearbox? Really??
Get a grip!
---
Apologies, I misread the above post somewhat. Skim reading. However there has been some proper irrational hatred for the auto box on here.
I've witnessed many forms of elitism, but looking down one's nose at people who want an automatic gearbox? Really??
Get a grip!
---
Apologies, I misread the above post somewhat. Skim reading. However there has been some proper irrational hatred for the auto box on here.
Edited by Kenny Powers on Friday 15th November 09:38
The Pits said:
To introduce pdk to the GT3 I have to accept is necessary to hit their sales targets but to make it pdk-only deeply disappointing move and reveals Porsche to be more interested in making great profits than great drivers cars. If they can be stubborn about rear engines for 50 years you'd think they of all makers could hang on to the manual for a few more years?!
'Ring times matter, economy matters, wider audience matters, save expensive engine rebuilds matter.Porsche gave up RWD on their 993 Turbo (flagship sporscar) 15+ years ago - safer for the user.
Times are a changing and why the air cooled analog stuff has so much hot air in the values.
None of that explains why it has to be PDK-only.
The only thing that does is cutting development costs.
Porsche learned that they can 'get away' with rebadging a VW with the Cayenne.
Now they know they can 'get away' with electric steering and dumping the manual gearbox.
All the while, the praise just keeps gushing-in unabated.
The only thing that does is cutting development costs.
Porsche learned that they can 'get away' with rebadging a VW with the Cayenne.
Now they know they can 'get away' with electric steering and dumping the manual gearbox.
All the while, the praise just keeps gushing-in unabated.
'Fast should mean scary: Tell me I'm wrong'
You're wrong. Being scared is an unpleasant emotion caused by the threat of danger or harm. In terms of driving that could mean the risk of conviction, financial loss or even physical injury. But you're right to say fear will always remain inextricably linked to the pursuit of driving excitement, the feeling you get when driving a car skillfully. The trick is to choose a car that maximises the excitement whilst keeping those other risks in check. Deciding how much excitement you need - and how much risk you're prepared to accept in the process - is a purely personal one. Nobody can answer that question but you.
However, as mentioned already, relatively 'raw' open-topped sports cars do seem to offer the best solution for most drivers. They can be driven both quickly and safely on the road whilst still providing sufficient feedback to suggest you're approaching their limits. Fortunately there are still plenty of options to choose from, MX5s and S2000s to Caterhams and TVRs. The common thread linking them all is their ability to provide the essential elements a driver needs to drive them hard: good power, precise transmission, predictable handling, good steering feel, strong brakes and that final X-factor that turns a good car into a great one.
You're wrong. Being scared is an unpleasant emotion caused by the threat of danger or harm. In terms of driving that could mean the risk of conviction, financial loss or even physical injury. But you're right to say fear will always remain inextricably linked to the pursuit of driving excitement, the feeling you get when driving a car skillfully. The trick is to choose a car that maximises the excitement whilst keeping those other risks in check. Deciding how much excitement you need - and how much risk you're prepared to accept in the process - is a purely personal one. Nobody can answer that question but you.
However, as mentioned already, relatively 'raw' open-topped sports cars do seem to offer the best solution for most drivers. They can be driven both quickly and safely on the road whilst still providing sufficient feedback to suggest you're approaching their limits. Fortunately there are still plenty of options to choose from, MX5s and S2000s to Caterhams and TVRs. The common thread linking them all is their ability to provide the essential elements a driver needs to drive them hard: good power, precise transmission, predictable handling, good steering feel, strong brakes and that final X-factor that turns a good car into a great one.
A great discussion topic in deed, but after reading through 9 pages I'm still not anywhere close to deciding which direction my search for a fun car should take.
The Civic I had in university was light, nimble and was a blast to drive as I could keep my foot nailed to the floor for a long time.
The Camro SS I rented in the states last month was also a blast, mainly because of the awesome sound and power. The problem was that ridiculous speeds would be reached too fast (the tickets that just came in the mail are proof), so the enjoyment was always measured in seconds.
For me, the ears drive as well, so a cars sound is absolutely crucial. It also needs to have some idea of a back seat for the wife and baby to come along once in a while.
So where does this leave a guy that wants driving pleasure at reasonable speeds, with a good soundtrack and a vague idea of practicality?
Hot hatch? RX-8 with some major sound tuning? A strangled Yank V8?
The Civic I had in university was light, nimble and was a blast to drive as I could keep my foot nailed to the floor for a long time.
The Camro SS I rented in the states last month was also a blast, mainly because of the awesome sound and power. The problem was that ridiculous speeds would be reached too fast (the tickets that just came in the mail are proof), so the enjoyment was always measured in seconds.
For me, the ears drive as well, so a cars sound is absolutely crucial. It also needs to have some idea of a back seat for the wife and baby to come along once in a while.
So where does this leave a guy that wants driving pleasure at reasonable speeds, with a good soundtrack and a vague idea of practicality?
Hot hatch? RX-8 with some major sound tuning? A strangled Yank V8?
Tib said:
Completely agree. One of the reasons I liked my MR-2.
This!I had a modified MR2 Turbo years ago that was a total animal. Too much throttle in low gears would spin the wheels up in the wet and the tail could kick out even in the dry if you got back on the gas too quickly exiting tight bends or roundabouts.
It was so fast in a straight line that overtaking traffic wasn't the issue, but getting back down to a sane speed once past and in time for the next bend was the major concern.
That car was an absolute blast to drive and demanded respect and full concentration at all times because it was so raw.
The Z4 Coupe I have now is far more capable as an all rounder and I can thread it down a twisty road at a much greater lick, but for pure excitement the rambunctious little MR2 was just magic.
flatso said:
So where does this leave a guy that wants driving pleasure at reasonable speeds, with a good soundtrack and a vague idea of practicality?
Hot hatch? RX-8 with some major sound tuning? A strangled Yank V8?
BMW M5, probably the 1985-88 version.Hot hatch? RX-8 with some major sound tuning? A strangled Yank V8?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzOPR7STqrQ
Zircon said:
Scary fast is a rarity these days - a reason why I can't ever see myself selling my MR2 Turbo (and yes I would love a 911 or a true pedigree instead of my MR2 - sadly funds don't allow this). Whilst I totally understand that performance wise it's not in the same league as the Porsche in this article, it is still scary fast.
Before you look down your noses at the 'hairdressers Toyota', go and drive one of the 1994 - 1999 Turbo models (in good running order), I can guarantee you will raise your eyebrows and agree that it is scary fast to drive and a much underrated performance car. You will get a far bigger buzz out of the MR2 than an Impreza for example, despite the Impreza being the more complete performance package.
Few modern cars - as the article quite rightly says - offer this raw feeling so I wholeheartedly agree with your words. It's all about the fear.....
Before you look down your noses at the 'hairdressers Toyota', go and drive one of the 1994 - 1999 Turbo models (in good running order), I can guarantee you will raise your eyebrows and agree that it is scary fast to drive and a much underrated performance car. You will get a far bigger buzz out of the MR2 than an Impreza for example, despite the Impreza being the more complete performance package.
Few modern cars - as the article quite rightly says - offer this raw feeling so I wholeheartedly agree with your words. It's all about the fear.....
pagani1 said:
With the benefit of age I can tell you that power does not equal fun or scary. Scary is when out on a test drive in a brand new car you come to a difficult corner, brake, brake and exit left into a field of cabbages with the dealer alongside you going aaaarrgh! Despite this, I bought the car and it turned out "the fix" which the manufacturer came upon a few years after me was to disconnect the servo.
Gentlemen I give you
So exciting I am now searching for another one after a diet of Mazda RX-7's, Porsche 911, M5, Alfasud sprint coupe, S4, Z1, TT, Porsche 964, E46 Coupe. Lancia Beta MonteCarlo where are you now?
Had one of these. Wiped the front end off on a passing transit, when the front wheels locked and I skidded across a T-junction. It hadn't had the "brake fix" done!Gentlemen I give you
So exciting I am now searching for another one after a diet of Mazda RX-7's, Porsche 911, M5, Alfasud sprint coupe, S4, Z1, TT, Porsche 964, E46 Coupe. Lancia Beta MonteCarlo where are you now?
The thing is, one person's exciting is another person's bloody terrifying.
I think you need to find a balance. There's definitely something exciting (and quite educational!) about being slightly outside of your comfort zone, but with anything really tricky - particularly on the public road - I think you just end up driving it so far within its capability that it starts to become boring.
A lot of it comes down to predictability. Some cars react quickly and require a lot of input from the driver, but do so consistently. Driving them fast isn't trivial, but you understand what the rules are. Every so often, though, you come across something which is benign nine times out of 10 and then just turns on you. And that's scary.
I think you need to find a balance. There's definitely something exciting (and quite educational!) about being slightly outside of your comfort zone, but with anything really tricky - particularly on the public road - I think you just end up driving it so far within its capability that it starts to become boring.
A lot of it comes down to predictability. Some cars react quickly and require a lot of input from the driver, but do so consistently. Driving them fast isn't trivial, but you understand what the rules are. Every so often, though, you come across something which is benign nine times out of 10 and then just turns on you. And that's scary.
Raize said:
MC Bodge said:
Raize said:
On the other end of the spectrum it's very irritating when you have TDIs keeping up with you when driving your 80's sportscar at 11/10ths.
How often does this happen?
MC Bodge said:
Raize said:
MC Bodge said:
Raize said:
On the other end of the spectrum it's very irritating when you have TDIs keeping up with you when driving your 80's sportscar at 11/10ths.
How often does this happen?My realisation, having driven swift RWD stuff on the road and on track (fun and competition) gradually caem to be that the fun is at the limit and that the public roads are seldom the place to explore it. Shortly after selling my last proper sports car, I went on a (PH organised) Bedford Autodrome Palmersport day - enjoyed the Caterhams in particular and then, in the afternoon, had the priviledge, the bliss of driving one of the 3 litre, slick-shot, bewinged singleseaters amnd was spoilled forever.
I struggled to 'get' the two-seater car, yo-yoing between braking too early and having to drive into the corner and too late, without having generated heat in the tyres and without balancing the car. It was set to understeer in this instance - to help us mere mortals - but once everything clicked, I cannot ever remember having felt so connected to a car and so thrilled by it.
If you have even half a chance just go do it, but know that you'll never look (or at least I haven't) at a roadgoing sports car in the same light again.
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff