RE: Fast should mean scary: Tell Me I'm Wrong
Discussion
anonymous said:
[redacted]
This is slightly off topic but why do car companies fit cars with electric power steering?The excuse given is emissions & economy. We all know that the benefits are infinitesimal & would only benefit an owner who drove the car about 300,000 miles.
Is the real reason that it is more profitable for them?
Just asking.
Kenny Powers said:
Whilst I agree in part, I struggle to understand the problem some people appear to have with modern cars.
Buy an old one?
But old cars need TLC, and aren't always reliable.Buy an old one?
And have worse crash protection.
And typically don't have some of the 'toys' that make modern driving life easier - ABS is an obvious one, but bluetooth and a USB input is another.
Not everyone wants or can afford to run 2 cars (older weekend toy and modern commuter, for example). A '1 car to do it all' is what most PHers have/want.
SO...what happens if you want a reliable, crash-worthy car with a modicum of kit to make the boring drives less boring...AND you still want the car to involve you??? Note I'm saying involve, not necessarily go warp-10 with the tail hanging out round every corner.
You're faced with a limited stock of suitable metal. Arguably you need to go back 5, 10, even 15 years to get to the sweet-spot of that particular equation...but at 10 and 15 years cars won't always be reliable...so you're back at 5 years...but cars built 5 years ago were definitely built down to a price and will need a warranty attached to them in most cases. Narrowing your field of suitable cars even more...
dulcinea said:
I watched Evo Car of the Year last night and then spent 30 minutes discussing it with a colleague this morning. We came to exactly the same conclusion as this article.
I am privileged enough to have driven some lovely cars including M3, Evora S, TVR Cerbera etc but the one car I really miss - my 306GTi-6 that I bought for £1,500 about 6 years ago. So light with enough power to have fun but it was the last car I really felt I could keep my foot to the floor for more than 10 seconds.
I don't have the money to go out and buy one of the modern supercars and I suspect if I won the Euro millions I would be down to McLaren like a shot, but as I sit here typing they all leave me feeling very cold.
That car history sounds familiar.....The Cerbera was proper scary! You know you need a 7, they return about 100 smiles per gallon on the combined cycle!I am privileged enough to have driven some lovely cars including M3, Evora S, TVR Cerbera etc but the one car I really miss - my 306GTi-6 that I bought for £1,500 about 6 years ago. So light with enough power to have fun but it was the last car I really felt I could keep my foot to the floor for more than 10 seconds.
I don't have the money to go out and buy one of the modern supercars and I suspect if I won the Euro millions I would be down to McLaren like a shot, but as I sit here typing they all leave me feeling very cold.
havoc said:
Kenny Powers said:
Whilst I agree in part, I struggle to understand the problem some people appear to have with modern cars.
Buy an old one?
But old cars need TLC, and aren't always reliable.Buy an old one?
And have worse crash protection.
And typically don't have some of the 'toys' that make modern driving life easier - ABS is an obvious one, but bluetooth and a USB input is another.
Not everyone wants or can afford to run 2 cars (older weekend toy and modern commuter, for example). A '1 car to do it all' is what most PHers have/want.
SO...what happens if you want a reliable, crash-worthy car with a modicum of kit to make the boring drives less boring...AND you still want the car to involve you??? Note I'm saying involve, not necessarily go warp-10 with the tail hanging out round every corner.
You're faced with a limited stock of suitable metal. Arguably you need to go back 5, 10, even 15 years to get to the sweet-spot of that particular equation...but at 10 and 15 years cars won't always be reliable...so you're back at 5 years...but cars built 5 years ago were definitely built down to a price and will need a warranty attached to them in most cases. Narrowing your field of suitable cars even more...
That becomes altogether more challenging. I suggested a whole load of cars earlier but the largest, apart from a Transit and a Defender (both two/three seaters), was a Suzuki Swift Sport.
Is a Ford S-Max really the ideal compromise? It's enough to make you give up.
stormcloud123 said:
Speed is not important for those experienced PHers, and for most people, being scared in a car is not why they buy it.
In reality, fast and scary are words that young PHers debate.
Track and Race time is a completely different matter...
Cant agree more. For the road, low(ish) power and low grip. The fun IS to be had at the limit and working every last ounce out of what you have underneath you. In reality, fast and scary are words that young PHers debate.
Track and Race time is a completely different matter...
TWPC said:
Nice suggestion, wouldn't have thought about it. Never really warmed up to the look of the e28, the windows seem a bit too tall. The e34 however, especially as an estate looks awesome. Just afraid that it is a bit too heavy.dulcinea said:
I don't have the money to go out and buy one of the modern supercars and I suspect if I won the Euro millions I would be down to McLaren like a shot, but as I sit here typing they all leave me feeling very cold.
I often pass a McLaren dealer and, I have to say, I feel the same. I've never stopped to have a look.
Edited by MC Bodge on Friday 15th November 19:20
Kawasicki said:
The thing that confuses me is how people say modern hot hatches are more fun because they offer accessible fun, that they somehow allow fun while still being (almost) within the law. Yet the hot hatches I drive all seem to make a complete mockery of speed limits.
I obviously exist in a separate reality. My reality is one where a mundane 520d might regularly exceed 100mph on a small B-road, while many Pistonheaders describe the car as slow. Exactly how fast do these people want to drive?
I couldn't agree more. I have been in an Evo 8 with 340hp as a passenger. It was b****y fast my brain needed a minute to get used to the speed you could fly through bends at and this was on a very tight track not getting out of third really. On the road it would be easy to drive up to the limit and you could easily hit silly speeds. I obviously exist in a separate reality. My reality is one where a mundane 520d might regularly exceed 100mph on a small B-road, while many Pistonheaders describe the car as slow. Exactly how fast do these people want to drive?
I think we need a small revvy turbo three cylinder engine with a six speed manual in the lightest chassis a manufacturer can make as cheaply as possible. Like a Toyota Aygo and GT86 had a baby.
flatso said:
TWPC said:
Nice suggestion, wouldn't have thought about it. Never really warmed up to the look of the e28, the windows seem a bit too tall. The e34 however, especially as an estate looks awesome. Just afraid that it is a bit too heavy.Saying that, if it was just one car then it'd be an E30 M3 for me I think. It's true that you'll be doing well to out-run and out-brake the latest breed of TDis, but you'll out-smile them all
Brilliant article. Another way of putting it is that grip - the great god at which we all these days must worship - is boring. A car that "moves about under you" at normal speeds is fun. Car manufacturers have been on a 40 year mission to stop them doing just that. Which is why it's almost a public duty to buy the new Toyota / Subaru.
iloveboost said:
I think we need a small revvy turbo three cylinder engine with a six speed manual in the lightest chassis a manufacturer can make as cheaply as possible. Like a Toyota Aygo and GT86 had a baby.
+1!This exists and is good value IMO [1]:
But a 108 Rallye (perhaps they could even sneak some lift off oversteer past the ESP?) along the lines you were thinking would be just the ticket at the value end of the market. Or a warm version of the Mazda 2 (that's nicely light weight from start). Not sure people are ready for this, though. One gets laughed at here when suggesting a Swift Sport in a "hot hatch" thread. And the 133 PS Twingo did not do that well either commercially...
Thinking a bit more about the original question, I believe cars have reached such a level of perfection that it is time to dismiss stats as a way of defining what is "good" or "bad", "sporty" or "bland". Just look at the numbers of the new Macan. Why buy a base spec Cayman or anything else fastish, for that matter? Nokia makes a phone with 41 MP, why spend thousands on a Nikon Df? Clock yourself on the next longer drive in something quick. How many minutes did you gain in comparison to say an entry level Fiesta?
[1] http://www.pistonheads.com/news/default.asp?storyI...
If you think your car is too modern and doesn't move underneath you... put some cheap Korean tyres on and wait for it to rain, give it a bit of beans and it'll be all over the place with the traction control light flashing like mad.
I have an RS6 and an RS2. It's the RS2 that gives me a few butterflies if I'm taking it out for a bit of a hoon. The RS6 is fast in an instant, feels planted and composed with an ESP system that gets the power down and keeps you pointing in the intended direction. But the RS2 requires forward thinking and skill to make the most of the laggy turbo-charged performance, clunky 6-speed 'box and lack of traction control - you'll need a bit of yaw to counter the understeer and good reactions when the turbo kicks in when it's wet... when I'm on my own I take it all the time for that bit of adrenaline, the '6 is the family cruiser/wife's car.
I have an RS6 and an RS2. It's the RS2 that gives me a few butterflies if I'm taking it out for a bit of a hoon. The RS6 is fast in an instant, feels planted and composed with an ESP system that gets the power down and keeps you pointing in the intended direction. But the RS2 requires forward thinking and skill to make the most of the laggy turbo-charged performance, clunky 6-speed 'box and lack of traction control - you'll need a bit of yaw to counter the understeer and good reactions when the turbo kicks in when it's wet... when I'm on my own I take it all the time for that bit of adrenaline, the '6 is the family cruiser/wife's car.
Article hits the nail squarely on the head for me.
Last 3+ years I've been out to play in a BEC for these very reasons; incredibly light weight (425Kg fully-fuelled and running), brilliantly-sorted chassis and zero driver aids/assistance mean it all comes down the driving.
Some days I just cannot muster the concentration required, and it feels like 30mins in the spin dryer. Most other days are sublime. Yes, it is capable of being silly-quick, but the joy is in manually exploiting as much as you dare of what it offers on any given B-road - as it moves, as it throws a riot of information back at you. Noisy, uncouth, violent, no fun for a passenger - don't care. It's used year-round as the total antidote for the day's cares. Happy happy, joy joy. Still fun at idle in a traffic jam. Wouldn't swap it for almost anything I can think of.
tl;dr: the joy it brings is very little to do with straight-line stomp. It's about everything else.
Last 3+ years I've been out to play in a BEC for these very reasons; incredibly light weight (425Kg fully-fuelled and running), brilliantly-sorted chassis and zero driver aids/assistance mean it all comes down the driving.
Some days I just cannot muster the concentration required, and it feels like 30mins in the spin dryer. Most other days are sublime. Yes, it is capable of being silly-quick, but the joy is in manually exploiting as much as you dare of what it offers on any given B-road - as it moves, as it throws a riot of information back at you. Noisy, uncouth, violent, no fun for a passenger - don't care. It's used year-round as the total antidote for the day's cares. Happy happy, joy joy. Still fun at idle in a traffic jam. Wouldn't swap it for almost anything I can think of.
tl;dr: the joy it brings is very little to do with straight-line stomp. It's about everything else.
Edited by Huff on Saturday 16th November 00:59
Ok, a good drive should not scare you silly, but it should make you feel as if it's your skill keeping the car on the road when driven briskly.
I love a car to need a bit of input, beginning the turn in phase with some brake pressure to kill under steer in the 911, adjusting the throttle to tighten or loosen the turn in a mk1 or mk3 mr2. Catching the back end as the turbo boosts in a 200sx, riding the overrun kick when you cut from full to part throttle in an Evo 5.
Each of these cars I have owned have taken some time to learn their individual responses but it has been very rewarding doing so.
I love a car to need a bit of input, beginning the turn in phase with some brake pressure to kill under steer in the 911, adjusting the throttle to tighten or loosen the turn in a mk1 or mk3 mr2. Catching the back end as the turbo boosts in a 200sx, riding the overrun kick when you cut from full to part throttle in an Evo 5.
Each of these cars I have owned have taken some time to learn their individual responses but it has been very rewarding doing so.
rejn said:
Yep - I agree - and James Hunt was right all along with his A35 Van.
One of my great motoring regrets was not spotting that van when it came up for auction a couple of years ago - I'd have had it like a shot.http://www.silverstoneauctions.com/1967-austin-a-3...
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