RE: Fast should mean scary: Tell Me I'm Wrong
Discussion
Baryonyx said:
Indeed, this. I am a former MR2 Turbo owner, and it was always a pleasure and slightly nervy on the limit, or approaching it! You were always aware of what the car was doing, you could never switch off when you were driving it, and that was a good thing. The feeling of slip at the rear wheels, or the nose lifting on on a D/C to tell you you were going pretty fast...those were moments that will stay with me forever. The car felt alive, it felt characterful and pressing on was a challenge.
I feel it now also in my 106 Rallye. It's nowhere near as 'fast' as the MR2 Turbo, but it's a more delicate handler and it presses you into some wild cornering speeds that bigger, lardier lumps of metal can only dream of. That delicacy of handling is complimented by the engine, that rewards dedication and skilful use of the gears, and doesn't really give you anything beneath 4000rpm. This is tempered by a constant reminder that the agility is borne from a low kerb weight, and all the exposed metal in the interior, the thin pillars, the lack of airbags; it all serves to keep you strictly on task and asking yourself "what if?". I wouldn't fancy crashing it, and the thought that I myself could come to harm is one I consider. In many modern cars, the drivers feel so insulated and disconnected from the road, I think they just expect to survive any crash unscathed, even if the car is written off. It's much easier to take silly risks when you feel safe, and it's much easier to feel the thrilling flow of adrenaline when you don't!
^^I feel it now also in my 106 Rallye. It's nowhere near as 'fast' as the MR2 Turbo, but it's a more delicate handler and it presses you into some wild cornering speeds that bigger, lardier lumps of metal can only dream of. That delicacy of handling is complimented by the engine, that rewards dedication and skilful use of the gears, and doesn't really give you anything beneath 4000rpm. This is tempered by a constant reminder that the agility is borne from a low kerb weight, and all the exposed metal in the interior, the thin pillars, the lack of airbags; it all serves to keep you strictly on task and asking yourself "what if?". I wouldn't fancy crashing it, and the thought that I myself could come to harm is one I consider. In many modern cars, the drivers feel so insulated and disconnected from the road, I think they just expect to survive any crash unscathed, even if the car is written off. It's much easier to take silly risks when you feel safe, and it's much easier to feel the thrilling flow of adrenaline when you don't!
Very well put sir
So the answer is that we should all fit budget tyres?
This would drastically reduce the cornering potential of any car so that driving around the speed limit on a B road may be 8/10 of the cars ability rather than 5/10 with good tyres. It would certainly add character and unpredictability to your drive
This would drastically reduce the cornering potential of any car so that driving around the speed limit on a B road may be 8/10 of the cars ability rather than 5/10 with good tyres. It would certainly add character and unpredictability to your drive
Jayyylo said:
So the answer is that we should all fit budget tyres?
This would drastically reduce the cornering potential of any car so that driving around the speed limit on a B road may be 8/10 of the cars ability rather than 5/10 with good tyres. It would certainly add character and unpredictability to your drive
That's it!This would drastically reduce the cornering potential of any car so that driving around the speed limit on a B road may be 8/10 of the cars ability rather than 5/10 with good tyres. It would certainly add character and unpredictability to your drive
I believe your comparing cars which really should be on a race track than the road with cars that are aimed at the road but kid themselves they'd be great on the race track (my mk4 ibiza cupra was one of the latter).
Epically fast cars have their place so while throwing a 911 down a lane with a positive ball to brain size ratio it will feel terrifying (i imagine as i've never driven one) but on a race track it will just feel fast with little perception at just how fast the solid lumps of wood either side of you are flying by.
It's all relative as i discovered on my first few track days just what cars are capable of, even relatively low powered humble ones it also made me realise i'd have to be pretty daft to try and reach the limit in a quick car on the road without at least some profesional tuition and a healthy dose of level headed commitment. But yes i agree with you having a car that can do two hundred and forty besquillion miles an hour is just pointless. IMO there is a point where too fast becomes pointless. Even old supercars like the Esprit is probably all you'd ever want to go 'fast' on HM's highway.
Epically fast cars have their place so while throwing a 911 down a lane with a positive ball to brain size ratio it will feel terrifying (i imagine as i've never driven one) but on a race track it will just feel fast with little perception at just how fast the solid lumps of wood either side of you are flying by.
It's all relative as i discovered on my first few track days just what cars are capable of, even relatively low powered humble ones it also made me realise i'd have to be pretty daft to try and reach the limit in a quick car on the road without at least some profesional tuition and a healthy dose of level headed commitment. But yes i agree with you having a car that can do two hundred and forty besquillion miles an hour is just pointless. IMO there is a point where too fast becomes pointless. Even old supercars like the Esprit is probably all you'd ever want to go 'fast' on HM's highway.
dulcinea said:
I watched Evo Car of the Year last night and then spent 30 minutes discussing it with a colleague this morning. We came to exactly the same conclusion as this article.
I am privileged enough to have driven some lovely cars including M3, Evora S, TVR Cerbera etc but the one car I really miss - my 306GTi-6 that I bought for £1,500 about 6 years ago. So light with enough power to have fun but it was the last car I really felt I could keep my foot to the floor for more than 10 seconds.
I don't have the money to go out and buy one of the modern supercars and I suspect if I won the Euro millions I would be down to McLaren like a shot, but as I sit here typing they all leave me feeling very cold.
See now my Rallye just feels dull compared to the Mini that it replaced. I am privileged enough to have driven some lovely cars including M3, Evora S, TVR Cerbera etc but the one car I really miss - my 306GTi-6 that I bought for £1,500 about 6 years ago. So light with enough power to have fun but it was the last car I really felt I could keep my foot to the floor for more than 10 seconds.
I don't have the money to go out and buy one of the modern supercars and I suspect if I won the Euro millions I would be down to McLaren like a shot, but as I sit here typing they all leave me feeling very cold.
All relative I suppose.
Kawasicki said:
The thing that confuses me is how people say modern hot hatches are more fun because they offer accessible fun, that they somehow allow fun while still being (almost) within the law. Yet the hot hatches I drive all seem to make a complete mockery of speed limits.
I obviously exist in a separate reality. My reality is one where a mundane 520d might regularly exceed 100mph on a small B-road, while many Pistonheaders describe the car as slow. Exactly how fast do these people want to drive?
Couldn't agree more. My fun car at the moment is a Mk1 Mr2, probably about 100bhp. Still quite capable of 100+ on any remotely interesting country road, IF I wasn't so worried about being caught and banned.I obviously exist in a separate reality. My reality is one where a mundane 520d might regularly exceed 100mph on a small B-road, while many Pistonheaders describe the car as slow. Exactly how fast do these people want to drive?
So why am I looking at Cerberas and 911TTs in the classifieds . . . ?
aww999 said:
Kawasicki said:
The thing that confuses me is how people say modern hot hatches are more fun because they offer accessible fun, that they somehow allow fun while still being (almost) within the law. Yet the hot hatches I drive all seem to make a complete mockery of speed limits.
I obviously exist in a separate reality. My reality is one where a mundane 520d might regularly exceed 100mph on a small B-road, while many Pistonheaders describe the car as slow. Exactly how fast do these people want to drive?
Couldn't agree more. My fun car at the moment is a Mk1 Mr2, probably about 100bhp. Still quite capable of 100+ on any remotely interesting country road, IF I wasn't so worried about being caught and banned.I obviously exist in a separate reality. My reality is one where a mundane 520d might regularly exceed 100mph on a small B-road, while many Pistonheaders describe the car as slow. Exactly how fast do these people want to drive?
So why am I looking at Cerberas and 911TTs in the classifieds . . . ?
Now, I know this sounds a bit 'I'm a driving god', but can't honestly say I'm ever scared by a car. My definition of being scared by something is when something happens that you either don't predict or expect. If for instance, I jumped in a car with someone, hit 90mph and it took off and flew I think, yes, that would probably scare me, but back in the real world where you get understeer, oversteer or a mix of both. No. That's not scary.
I'm not saying here I don't get seat munching moments, but that's not that enjoyable to me. It's something that's occurred as a result of a misjudgement, which IMO is to be avoided. The most pleasure I get is driving smoothly and making progress on the road, or nailing the 'perfect lap' or consistent laps on track, or pulling off a particularly cunning overtake on someone (round the outside of paddock for instance!). That's all conscious thought though, and the feeling is not of fear, but of satisfaction/achievement. I'd say that's the same on the road. Even doing a smokey burnout drift out of a junction in something powerful and rwd is not scarey. It's satisfying/immensely vain because you might have possibly done it to show off
:
I remember David Coulthard once answering a question posed by either Jake or Eddie saying 'Do you miss the adrenalin of racing', and he summised.
'No' he said
'I haven't got an adrenalin rush as such from driving a car for a long time, but I do miss the precision and the focus you get from driving fast. It's feeling you get having nailed a corner, sector or lap, or had a great race'
That, to me, sum's it up perfectly.
I'm not saying here I don't get seat munching moments, but that's not that enjoyable to me. It's something that's occurred as a result of a misjudgement, which IMO is to be avoided. The most pleasure I get is driving smoothly and making progress on the road, or nailing the 'perfect lap' or consistent laps on track, or pulling off a particularly cunning overtake on someone (round the outside of paddock for instance!). That's all conscious thought though, and the feeling is not of fear, but of satisfaction/achievement. I'd say that's the same on the road. Even doing a smokey burnout drift out of a junction in something powerful and rwd is not scarey. It's satisfying/immensely vain because you might have possibly done it to show off
: I remember David Coulthard once answering a question posed by either Jake or Eddie saying 'Do you miss the adrenalin of racing', and he summised.
'No' he said
'I haven't got an adrenalin rush as such from driving a car for a long time, but I do miss the precision and the focus you get from driving fast. It's feeling you get having nailed a corner, sector or lap, or had a great race'
That, to me, sum's it up perfectly.
Edited by RacerMike on Thursday 14th November 13:02
I`ve owned a 2005 E55 and an SL55,owned and driven LOTS of other stuff including a couple of hundred miles in a GT-R but people who know me and don`t know ANYTHING about cars actually laugh at me when I`m in my Clio 182 Cup "what are you doing in that?" etc etc
The sensation of speed is FAR more important than what the numbers on the dash say!
The first time I drove a Griffith 500 I had that full bore through the gears moment, when I thought that it might be the right time to look at the speedo I was REALLY disappointed at the time, in hindsight it`s probably the way it should be!
The sensation of speed is FAR more important than what the numbers on the dash say!
The first time I drove a Griffith 500 I had that full bore through the gears moment, when I thought that it might be the right time to look at the speedo I was REALLY disappointed at the time, in hindsight it`s probably the way it should be!
Can't help but agree with the article. Recently sold my GT3 (not because it was too fast though) - you couldn't get anywhere near the limits on public roads. On the track, it was awesome though, just expensive because it eats consumable. Had one "no turn-in" moment at combe - into Quarry, which is a ridiculously fast approach (about 140mph in the GT3) - second lap after the lunch break and not enough heat in the tyres. Managed to straighten it up and take to the infield, so no spin/damage. Filled the front wheels with mown grass though, which was smouldering away nicely when I got back to the pits.
Should probably change my forum name now! The 993RS is a much more demanding car to drive, but you can use more of the performance on the road. I'm now looking for a '65 car, which will be alot slower than the GT3 but even more useable than the 993.
Should probably change my forum name now! The 993RS is a much more demanding car to drive, but you can use more of the performance on the road. I'm now looking for a '65 car, which will be alot slower than the GT3 but even more useable than the 993.
Completely with you on this. My 997 GT3s will be with me as long as I can drive them. Of course there will be much quicker cars that will eclipse them, but not for the visceral connectedness and the knowledge that no prisoners will be taken. I speak from experience. Still, that feeling of being at one with the car is very hard to better.
I totally agree with the article
I have a lot more fun driving my 86 BHP Fiesta Si on certain roads I know well in the peak district than I do driving my Focus RS on the same roads at the same speeds. The RS is more powerful, bigger, and built to a much higher spec, so you would have to be going a lot faster to have as much fun in it!
I have a lot more fun driving my 86 BHP Fiesta Si on certain roads I know well in the peak district than I do driving my Focus RS on the same roads at the same speeds. The RS is more powerful, bigger, and built to a much higher spec, so you would have to be going a lot faster to have as much fun in it!
Done to death but all I can say is that I agree.
My car history in chronological order reads - Mk2 Escort RS Custom - drove for a year then slowly restored - still not turned the engine over despite being 99% finished and looking forward to getting back out in her.
Mk3 Fiesta 1.1 - had to maintain as much momnetum as possible and every journey was a race - slipstreaming everything to enable safer overtaking etc etc. Sadly no longer with us.
S2 106 Rallye - More power, better feel. Non PAS with PAS castor and full front bracing (Crucial to feedback and feel) and although she looks standard she's solid and has about £4k of mainly suspension, chassis and brake upgrades. Would like to cage her just for the safety aspect as I've seen how they fare in unfurtunate situaitons and I'm getting older / more risk averse.
350Z 313ps - Good long distance car but damn hard to get the best from her as you have to learn the road conditions through gradually pushing the limits (on known roads) then next time it's all changed, not enough feedback to know the grip etc within a few miles as per the 106! A lot quicker over 80mph though than the 106 could ever be, not enough of a diff under that to leave me thinking the Z is vastly quicker. Viscous diff means tail out moments are more like a squirm albeit I've no doubt she's more rapid than with a locking diff (grip vs. fun again).
Triumph Sprint St 1050 - (After a 125 Varadero which was scary enough for the first coupld of weeks) Went this way to get some driving enthusiasm back as I don't have much space so store the interesting machines away from home and needed something useful. Still on the steep learning curve in regard to bikes, wasn't racing them around fields in my teens like my classmates - I was autotesting MOT failures!
My car history in chronological order reads - Mk2 Escort RS Custom - drove for a year then slowly restored - still not turned the engine over despite being 99% finished and looking forward to getting back out in her.
Mk3 Fiesta 1.1 - had to maintain as much momnetum as possible and every journey was a race - slipstreaming everything to enable safer overtaking etc etc. Sadly no longer with us.
S2 106 Rallye - More power, better feel. Non PAS with PAS castor and full front bracing (Crucial to feedback and feel) and although she looks standard she's solid and has about £4k of mainly suspension, chassis and brake upgrades. Would like to cage her just for the safety aspect as I've seen how they fare in unfurtunate situaitons and I'm getting older / more risk averse.
350Z 313ps - Good long distance car but damn hard to get the best from her as you have to learn the road conditions through gradually pushing the limits (on known roads) then next time it's all changed, not enough feedback to know the grip etc within a few miles as per the 106! A lot quicker over 80mph though than the 106 could ever be, not enough of a diff under that to leave me thinking the Z is vastly quicker. Viscous diff means tail out moments are more like a squirm albeit I've no doubt she's more rapid than with a locking diff (grip vs. fun again).
Triumph Sprint St 1050 - (After a 125 Varadero which was scary enough for the first coupld of weeks) Went this way to get some driving enthusiasm back as I don't have much space so store the interesting machines away from home and needed something useful. Still on the steep learning curve in regard to bikes, wasn't racing them around fields in my teens like my classmates - I was autotesting MOT failures!
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