RE: Fast should mean scary: Tell Me I'm Wrong

[Captainawesome]

zeppelin101 said:

I found myself in a(nother) 20 year old turbocharged Nissan after an E46 M3 for this reason.

M3s are wonderful cars, but not that easy to enjoy on the road in the real world imo, the limits are quite high. E36s were better in that rregard I think...

By comparison, the aforementioned 20 year old Nissan can be slid around happily within the speed limit and makes "quick" driving far more interesting!

Try switching sac off, properly off. You may find that fun is easily had at legal speeds

[dapearson]

CaptainSensib1e said:

Another 'I agree' here. That's why I aspire more to owning a modestly powered Caterham than a super car. The firsat time I drove a Caterham it was a revelation, I couldn't beleive how much fun going at modest speeds was. I've since driven some pretty nice cars including a 911, GTR and Gran tursmo, but I'd still take a Caterham all day long.

A Caterham is what i keep coming back to, especially when it comes to track work.

Exceptional to drive, even with only 100bhp and normal road tyres.

[Crusoe]

e46 M3 with all the aids off was good fun at lower speeds though still had a bit much grip and expensive rear tyres to want to play too often plus the warnings all flashing away to warn of your imminent death. Was more fun in the wet with reduced grip but quite civilized so didn’t always feel as fast as you were going. Changed back to a s2000 and it often feels like you are doing twice the speed showing on the speedometer and you definitely have the fear sometimes when driving home on snowy nights up here on summer tyres – keeps things exciting though.

[framerateuk]

Spot on Dan.

The Caterham manages to scare me most times I go out in it. Even though I'm not really going *that* fast. It feels fast, and that's all that really matters to me.

[AndyBrew]

Yeh I can remember every time I took my "430 Scuderia" out for a blast I thought god this is rubbish

All this talk of driving a car at it's limits, on public roads, really?? you do that???

If your scared your probably driving beyond your ability and quite frankly that is proper muppetry territory in my opinion.

You can enjoy all cars of differing power outputs in all manner of different ways, you don't and probably aren't capable of sliding it around roundabouts all day long, I know I couldn't, so I don't subscribe to this theory.

[pagani1]

With the benefit of age I can tell you that power does not equal fun or scary. Scary is when out on a test drive in a brand new car you come to a difficult corner, brake, brake and exit left into a field of cabbages with the dealer alongside you going aaaarrgh! Despite this, I bought the car and it turned out "the fix" which the manufacturer came upon a few years after me was to disconnect the servo.
Gentlemen I give you
So exciting I am now searching for another one after a diet of Mazda RX-7's, Porsche 911, M5, Alfasud sprint coupe, S4, Z1, TT, Porsche 964, E46 Coupe. Lancia Beta MonteCarlo where are you now?

[I WISH]

Impasse said:

I drank Champagne on Concorde. It wasn't scary, but it was fast.

I have also discovered that Brussels Sprouts can have the same effect.

[Clivey]

Excellent article Dan. I totally agree. - More of this type of stuff please!

The obsession with having the "ultimate" statistics is ultimately bad for the car enthusiast. - Look at F1; they have massive downforce, aerodynamics, tyres stickier than treacle that wear-out in 5 minutes, DRS, KERS and all of it adds up to boring racing (compared to yesteryear) at best, a procession behind the car with a small technical advantage at worst.

I watched 'Senna' recently and agreed with something he said so much, I stuck it in my profile (direct quote with no grammatical corrections):

"The electronics do a given situation and no matter who you put in the car the electronics will do the work, instead of the driver...and I don't think that is what you want."

[Dan Trent]

loudlashadjuster said:

Bit OT but, Röhrl. His name is Walter Röhrl.

Not Rohrl, or Roarl, or Roll, or Rule.

Röhrl.

It's not exactly hard to use the correct character in this day and age, and I reckon he's earned the right to have his name spelled correctly on an 'enthusiast' website like PH, no?

Carry on

The CMS goes a bit funny with accents unfortunately so we have to trim them off. Being strictly correct I could have spelt it Roehrl as an alternative to putting the umlaut on but then everyone would have said I'd spelt it wrong anyway.

Can't win!

Dan

[zeppelin101]

Captainawesome said:

Try switching sac off, properly off. You may find that fun is easily had at legal speeds

I did. Massive tyre footprint and a wide track still mean it wasn't nearly as enjoyable as my 180SX is. For the record, I don't mean full bore powersliding / drifts everywhere, I just mean feeling the thing move around and knowing exactly what is going. M3s don't have that in my experience. They don't have the sidewall for starters, or the compliance in the stupidly over-damped suspension. The steering was also quite numb until I had some extra camber dialled in.

It was a great car, but just not my cup of tea in the end. It didn't make going for a blast fun. By comparison, I enjoy getting in my 180 every day. Well, apart from the hideous fuel bill I'm currently experiencing hence the purchase of a dinky Toyota for daily duties...

First thing I did in the M3 after trying a full bore launch was to turn all the electronics off. Feels horrendous how sharply they cut in!

[TooMany2cvs]

Jayyylo said:

So the answer is that we should all fit budget tyres?

I like your logic, but - no. Because what you then end up with is something that just slides everywhere well, well, well within the limits of the chassis and engine.

What you want is a package where everything works well together. Everything gels. Everything is getting towards the edge of the performance envelope at around the same point. You're wringing the engine, you're getting the changes bob-on, you're working the suspension hard, you're working the tyres... but you're still within the bounds of social acceptability.

Harris mentioned his a couple of weeks ago.
Ladies an' Gennulmen, I present you with the pinnacle of automotive perfection that is the -spec 205. 1.1 4spd in our case, rather than the 1.4 5spd that a driving god like Monkey can cope with.

If that all gets a bit too, well, refined and boring - then there's always the 2cv.

But I don't decry the joys of two-wheeled machinery, either. That's why I have a VeloSolex.

[Alex]

pagani1 said:

With the benefit of age I can tell you that power does not equal fun or scary. Scary is when out on a test drive in a brand new car you come to a difficult corner, brake, brake and exit left into a field of cabbages with the dealer alongside you going aaaarrgh! Despite this, I bought the car and it turned out "the fix" which the manufacturer came upon a few years after me was to disconnect the servo.
Gentlemen I give you
So exciting I am now searching for another one after a diet of Mazda RX-7's, Porsche 911, M5, Alfasud sprint coupe, S4, Z1, TT, Porsche 964, E46 Coupe. Lancia Beta MonteCarlo where are you now?

Fantastic machine.

[CHIEF]

I used to always joke that you could never have enough power or speed on the road then a few years ago my pal chucked me his keys to his 150bhp Fireblade and said 'of you go'

I fking st myself, Never has anything screwed with my perception of speed and acceleration like that thing did and I wasn't even trying.

Now i'm bobbing on a bit I just dont see the point in going 150mph before breaking a sweat so cars like Nissan Gtr's would make me whoop with delight with their kick, they still leave me cold.

I've drove fast cars but one of the most enjoyable drives i've ever had is blatting along in a modestly powered V8 Dax Rush without going too stupid.

Jump in a 150bhp Elise or Caterham and take it down a B road on a nice day, You'll be giggling for days afterwards.

[BigGingerBob]

I find it very odd that everyone I have read on here agrees with this but then when something is done about it (BRZ, GT86) people complain that there isn't enough power.
'Needs a turbo!'
'Only 200 brake, might as well walk, I don't get out of bed for anything less than 700.'
Etc.

[The Pits]

Dan makes the 997 GT3 sound horrid to drive, which would be my experience.

If the new GT3 inspires more confidence I would enjoy it far more.

But seriously, all this talk of it being 'too fast' is laughable and pure unsubstantiated hype. Thanks to the weight GAIN it has power a to weight ratio no better than the 997 GT3 never mind the 4.0 GT3RS. I don't remember anyone saying the 4.0 GT3RS was 'too fast' and that had 500bhp! Suddenly 470bhp is the new be all and end all and is being compared to the 458 Italia?! Sorry but I just don't believe the hype. As with the 997 GT3 it can only be one of those cars that is 'not all that' in a straight line. It's a shame that there's such a frenzy of hype around the GT3s. The new car being auto only, having electric steering, increased weight and four wheel steering to disguise it, ought to be meeting with outrage but instead it is afforded Papal infallability! I would cause less offense to criticize the Koran!

[JonRB]

I totally agree with what Dan's saying here, which is probably why I love the Sagaris so much. It's analogue, visceral, and bloody scary. But also very biddable and controllable, as I found out in the wet at Silverstone.

However, on public roads I sometimes think it is a little too fast. I get as much enjoyment spanking my little Suzuki Swift Sport, darting in and out of traffic, and nipping about. Having said that, the hit of raw acceleration in the Sagaris is pretty special.

[Gorbyrev]

CaptainSensib1e said:

Another 'I agree' here. That's why I aspire more to owning a modestly powered Caterham than a super car. The firsat time I drove a Caterham it was a revelation, I couldn't beleive how much fun going at modest speeds was. I've since driven some pretty nice cars including a 911, GTR and Gran tursmo, but I'd still take a Caterham all day long.

Agree 100% and Caterhams do not necessarily improve with extra horsepower.

[Clivey]

BigGingerBob said:

I find it very odd that everyone I have read on here agrees with this but then when something is done about it (BRZ, GT86) people complain that there isn't enough power.
'Needs a turbo!'
'Only 200 brake, might as well walk, I don't get out of bed for anything less than 700.'
Etc.

In my case, the only reason i think it needs more power is so that I can engage in a bit of power oversteer around low speed corners.

[Zod]

MrTickle said:

Spot on IMO

I sort of agree. I'm in an R8 at the moment, waiting for my V12V to be fixed (a Corsa drove into my rear when I was stationary last week), and it's a very good car, but just a little bit too safe.

[Andy ap]

BigGingerBob said:

I find it very odd that everyone I have read on here agrees with this but then when something is done about it (BRZ, GT86) people complain that there isn't enough power.
'Needs a turbo!'
'Only 200 brake, might as well walk, I don't get out of bed for anything less than 700.'
Etc.

Welcome to PH where we say one thing but actually mean something completely differnt.