Nearly killed a motorcyclist this morning
Discussion
Yes unfortunately there are some bikers who are as bad as car drivers. I've had bikes sat in my near side blind spot for miles on end and refusing to overtake even when offered it and it really unsettles you knowing they're there but not being able to see them, takes your attention off everything else trying to track this bike.
So if you're a biker, please take note.
For those of you accusing the OP of not looking, FYI bikes can move quite quickly and can fit through small gaps too, meaning they arrive places where they weren't in the space of only a few seconds and you can't whip your head back and forth too quickly or you'll just end up getting dizzy, giving yourself whiplash and driving into something anyway. I'm sure we've all been in that situation where you are trying to divide your attention between what's in front and what's in your blindspot and end up being less aware of both.
So if you're a biker, please take note.
For those of you accusing the OP of not looking, FYI bikes can move quite quickly and can fit through small gaps too, meaning they arrive places where they weren't in the space of only a few seconds and you can't whip your head back and forth too quickly or you'll just end up getting dizzy, giving yourself whiplash and driving into something anyway. I'm sure we've all been in that situation where you are trying to divide your attention between what's in front and what's in your blindspot and end up being less aware of both.
Eddh said:
morgrp said:
Mintyhit said:
"appeared in my nearside blind spot."
You're supposed to check those before changing lanes.
Think you'll also find any biker who actually knows how to ride properly won't sit in them either and should expect a car not to see them You're supposed to check those before changing lanes.
When I'm on my bike I spend as little time offset behind a car as possible because I know they maybe can't see me and also when I'm in the car it's irritating having a bike sat on your nearside shoulder never quite sure if they're going to go or what indeed they're doing. I've got traffic ahead to consider as well as the biker dithering around behind me, I'd rather they either go, or drop in behind.
In traffic like the OP described, then it's everyman for himself. The biker should be very fecking careful about darting in and out of lanes and assume that NO-ONE has seen him at any time. I drive the M4 everyday and there's a lot of stuff for car drivers to be looking at other than just sitting there staring into their rear view mirrors. Even as a biker I sometimes get surprised by a bike coming through from apparently nowhere as I'm trying to check what the 5 lanes of merging traffic in front and either side of me are all doing in the dark and rain.
scarble said:
Yes unfortunately there are some bikers who are as bad as car drivers. I've had bikes sat in my near side blind spot for miles on end and refusing to overtake even when offered it and it really unsettles you knowing they're there but not being able to see them, takes your attention off everything else trying to track this bike.
So if you're a biker, please take note.
For those of you accusing the OP of not looking, FYI bikes can move quite quickly and can fit through small gaps too, meaning they arrive places where they weren't in the space of only a few seconds and you can't whip your head back and forth too quickly or you'll just end up getting dizzy, giving yourself whiplash and driving into something anyway. I'm sure we've all been in that situation where you are trying to divide your attention between what's in front and what's in your blindspot and end up being less aware of both.
Did they have those mohican things on their helmets though?So if you're a biker, please take note.
For those of you accusing the OP of not looking, FYI bikes can move quite quickly and can fit through small gaps too, meaning they arrive places where they weren't in the space of only a few seconds and you can't whip your head back and forth too quickly or you'll just end up getting dizzy, giving yourself whiplash and driving into something anyway. I'm sure we've all been in that situation where you are trying to divide your attention between what's in front and what's in your blindspot and end up being less aware of both.
Andehh said:
RemyMartin said:
Your story makes no sense, things don't just appear. This is down to poor observation. Sure you looked but I bet you didn't give more than a seconds glance in your blind spot.
Lucky the motorcyclist has better reactions.
You have got to be joking? Obvious trolling.Lucky the motorcyclist has better reactions.
I love watching those cars with 'think bike' stickers. We think about them, because they don't think for themselves. They are small, weak, vulnerable road users yet they have no issues with darting around traffic, between cars and up the insides taking the sort of risks I wouldn't even dream about taking, despite sitting in a 2 ton metal cage highly visible to everyone.
Crossflow Kid said:
Not so.
See rule 163, item 8:
Here
"stay in your lane if traffic is moving slowly in queues. If the queue on your right is moving more slowly than you are, you may pass on the left"
When the traffic is moving at 50mph it's not 'moving slowly in queues' though.See rule 163, item 8:
Here
"stay in your lane if traffic is moving slowly in queues. If the queue on your right is moving more slowly than you are, you may pass on the left"
This isn't a thread bashing bikers at all.
It's a thread bashing stupid road users.
Just because a total stranger uses the same road vehicle as you it doesn't mean you should feel attacked when someone points out that stranger is a t
t.
Crossflow Kid said:
Not so.
See rule 163, item 8:
Here
"stay in your lane if traffic is moving slowly in queues. If the queue on your right is moving more slowly than you are, you may pass on the left"
Traffic wasn't moving slowly though, he was doing 50mph. I've personally been pulled over for undertaking at 20mph in traffic. Depends how slow is slow.See rule 163, item 8:
Here
"stay in your lane if traffic is moving slowly in queues. If the queue on your right is moving more slowly than you are, you may pass on the left"
Dog Star said:
I've been riding bikes for almost 30 years, and I like to think that I don't hang about. I don't get knocked off either, because I don't expect people to have eyes in the back of their heads or expect bikes to be filtering through at speed. I might do it (the filtering) myself, but on my head be it.
Exactly how I see it. Yes the driver is responsible to complete the overtake but the motorcyclist is the one taking the risk undertaking, he should also not be impeding the overtake, the car was in essence in an overtaking lane.RemyMartin said:
Your story makes no sense, things don't just appear. This is down to poor observation. Sure you looked but I bet you didn't give more than a seconds glance in your blind spot.
Lucky the motorcyclist has better reactions.
Yes, I always spend at least 70% of my time looking behind me rather than in the direction I`m actually travelling in. Lucky the motorcyclist has better reactions.
OP you cannot predict or see everything so I get where you are coming from.
If I`m in/on the vehicle that`s going to come off much worse in the event of a collision I make damn sure I`m driving/riding defensively.
Being on the moral high ground isn`t much f
king use if you are dead.These threads always go the same way...
These work. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Summit-CBS-2-Blind-Spot-Mi...
Edited by mygoldfishbowl on Thursday 21st November 14:32
No they don't mygoldfishbowl, otherwise they'd be fitted to all cars as standard wouldn't they? They instead take up valuable mirror space and stop you seeing what would otherwise be in that bit of mirror.
GTIR said:
Did they have those mohican things on their helmets though?
Couldn't see mate, he was in my blind spot oyster said:
A vehicle/pedestrian/object would have to be quite some distance away to be blocked out by the A post.
The only time an A post would get in the way is if 2 vehicles were on a converging path disected precisely by the A post. Can you think of a scenario involving this in a car? I can't.
I'm sure I've seen a video of this, but can't find it at the mo. The picture at the top of this article demonstrates it well though. The video also showed how, as a vehicle slowed to check and enter a RA at a reasonable speed, a bike (don't care if motor or pedal) already on the RA could actually stay in that blindspot as the vehicle approaches, only appearing at almost the moment they are hitting the bonnet.The only time an A post would get in the way is if 2 vehicles were on a converging path disected precisely by the A post. Can you think of a scenario involving this in a car? I can't.
Also, from the DfT, 2008 (please excuse formatting problems, entirely mine):
DfT said:
Parts of the road can also be obscured by the windscreen pillar (or ‘A’ pillar). In an
early report, the Road Research Laboratory (1963) reported that a typical region of
obscuration of around 4 degrees would be enough to obscure the rear profile of a car
at 60 feet (approximately 18.3 metres away). They further demonstrated how a zone
of obscuration could theoretically track a small-moving object such as a pedestrian,
cyclist or motorcyclist; for example, on the approach to a roundabout. They
recommended that ‘A’ pillars should be designed to be as thin as possible, and
preferably less than 2 inches (approximately 5.1 cm) wide, including the window
frame.
Vehicle design has changed considerably since 1963, and vehicle ‘A’ pillars have
become thicker in an attempt to increase vehicle occupant safety. The Department
for Transport (2005) have highlighted the possible risks posed by thicker ‘A’ pillars
in newer cars, and have commissioned ongoing research into the problem, with a
view to considering whether amendments to current international regulations are
necessary. Motorcycle rider groups, such as the UK Motorcycle Action Group
(MAG UK, 2006a), and the motorcycling press (e.g. Bike; see Beach, 2004) have a
history of highlighting this issue – MAG UK (2006a) believe that an EU directive
on pillar design contains loopholes that manufacturers are actively exploiting. In
particular they referred to the practice of strengthening pillars with an additional
small non-opening quarter-light and extra support strut, which would theoretically
be likely to restrict vision to a much greater degree than that highlighted by the
Road Research Laboratory over 40 years ago. Both Bike (2004) and MAG UK
(2006a) quote former Rover/British Leyland chief engineer Spen King, who believes
that current EU regulations, which allow 6 degrees of view obscuration from a car’s
‘A’ pillar, are enough to allow a car in side profile to be potentially out of view at a
distance of 50 metres.
Attempts to solve the ‘A’ pillar obscuration problem have included designs of a
semi-transparent metal latticework and Plexiglas pillar by Volvo, which has
appeared in the company’s ‘Safety Concept Car’ (SCC), a prototype first unveiled in
2001 (Volvo Group, 2006). Alternatively, a driver-based approach could raise
awareness of the problem, and suggest simple strategies to overcome A-frame
obscuration (perhaps ‘look, wait, decide’, encouraging longer gaze durations so that
any obscured vehicle will emerge before the decision to pull out has been made).
One problem with this approach is that drivers may theoretically understand the
potential for windscreen pillars to obscure the road, yet may fail to heed the advice
when it is needed. This is because the situation does not necessarily provide clues to
the problem. The windscreen pillar may act in a similar fashion to the retinal blind
spot. The retinal blind spot (not to be confused with the over-the-shoulder check) is
an area of the retina where the optic nerve joins the eye. At this point there are no
receptors and the eye can process no information. Everyone has two such areas in
their visual field where there is no visual information, yet the visual system
extrapolates from the surrounding visual scene and ‘fills in’ the gaps such that these
areas are not noticeable (though if a visual stimulus appears in the blind spot it will
not be seen). Similarly, drivers may be so used to the obscuration posed by
windscreen pillars that they are no longer noticed. Instead the perceptual system
may fill in this ‘external blind spot’ and make it difficult for drivers to remember the
potential problems of obscuration and to take preventative action to avoid it. Any
trained strategy would have to be designed to overcome the driver’s propensity to
ignore the potential problems that can be caused by pillar obscuration.
Recent work on windscreen pillar obscuration has been conducted by Vargas and
Garcia-Perez (2005). They are currently developing a tool involving a mini-camera
mounted on a pair of spectacles which can record images from the visual scene with
the driver looking in various directions. Using this method they recorded significant
obscuration for all drivers in a variety of vehicles, sometimes extending into central
vision. Vargas and Garcia-Perez are hopeful that future versions of their device will
inform the in-car obscuration debate.
early report, the Road Research Laboratory (1963) reported that a typical region of
obscuration of around 4 degrees would be enough to obscure the rear profile of a car
at 60 feet (approximately 18.3 metres away). They further demonstrated how a zone
of obscuration could theoretically track a small-moving object such as a pedestrian,
cyclist or motorcyclist; for example, on the approach to a roundabout. They
recommended that ‘A’ pillars should be designed to be as thin as possible, and
preferably less than 2 inches (approximately 5.1 cm) wide, including the window
frame.
Vehicle design has changed considerably since 1963, and vehicle ‘A’ pillars have
become thicker in an attempt to increase vehicle occupant safety. The Department
for Transport (2005) have highlighted the possible risks posed by thicker ‘A’ pillars
in newer cars, and have commissioned ongoing research into the problem, with a
view to considering whether amendments to current international regulations are
necessary. Motorcycle rider groups, such as the UK Motorcycle Action Group
(MAG UK, 2006a), and the motorcycling press (e.g. Bike; see Beach, 2004) have a
history of highlighting this issue – MAG UK (2006a) believe that an EU directive
on pillar design contains loopholes that manufacturers are actively exploiting. In
particular they referred to the practice of strengthening pillars with an additional
small non-opening quarter-light and extra support strut, which would theoretically
be likely to restrict vision to a much greater degree than that highlighted by the
Road Research Laboratory over 40 years ago. Both Bike (2004) and MAG UK
(2006a) quote former Rover/British Leyland chief engineer Spen King, who believes
that current EU regulations, which allow 6 degrees of view obscuration from a car’s
‘A’ pillar, are enough to allow a car in side profile to be potentially out of view at a
distance of 50 metres.
Attempts to solve the ‘A’ pillar obscuration problem have included designs of a
semi-transparent metal latticework and Plexiglas pillar by Volvo, which has
appeared in the company’s ‘Safety Concept Car’ (SCC), a prototype first unveiled in
2001 (Volvo Group, 2006). Alternatively, a driver-based approach could raise
awareness of the problem, and suggest simple strategies to overcome A-frame
obscuration (perhaps ‘look, wait, decide’, encouraging longer gaze durations so that
any obscured vehicle will emerge before the decision to pull out has been made).
One problem with this approach is that drivers may theoretically understand the
potential for windscreen pillars to obscure the road, yet may fail to heed the advice
when it is needed. This is because the situation does not necessarily provide clues to
the problem. The windscreen pillar may act in a similar fashion to the retinal blind
spot. The retinal blind spot (not to be confused with the over-the-shoulder check) is
an area of the retina where the optic nerve joins the eye. At this point there are no
receptors and the eye can process no information. Everyone has two such areas in
their visual field where there is no visual information, yet the visual system
extrapolates from the surrounding visual scene and ‘fills in’ the gaps such that these
areas are not noticeable (though if a visual stimulus appears in the blind spot it will
not be seen). Similarly, drivers may be so used to the obscuration posed by
windscreen pillars that they are no longer noticed. Instead the perceptual system
may fill in this ‘external blind spot’ and make it difficult for drivers to remember the
potential problems of obscuration and to take preventative action to avoid it. Any
trained strategy would have to be designed to overcome the driver’s propensity to
ignore the potential problems that can be caused by pillar obscuration.
Recent work on windscreen pillar obscuration has been conducted by Vargas and
Garcia-Perez (2005). They are currently developing a tool involving a mini-camera
mounted on a pair of spectacles which can record images from the visual scene with
the driver looking in various directions. Using this method they recorded significant
obscuration for all drivers in a variety of vehicles, sometimes extending into central
vision. Vargas and Garcia-Perez are hopeful that future versions of their device will
inform the in-car obscuration debate.
grayze said:
The biker didn't fall from the sky into the blind spot, surely he should have been observed as he approached by use of the rear view mirror.
That would depend on the speed of the biker and thier angle of approach.Also, in the dark a bikes headlight can easily be confused as the headlight of a car.
In short - if you are passing traffic on the inside then you need to make sure you do so cleanly and don't block someone else's manouver.
DaveCWK said:
The lane I was in, L3, was trvelling faster than L1/2, hence the overtaking.
Having thought about it the only way the biker got where he was was via undertaking/filtering between L1/L2 and then 'joining' L2 in front of the car I was overtaking at the point I was pulling in, such that I didn't see him do so.
After I was given the stare of death they proceeded to speed off filtering/weaving between the traffic in L3/4 so it's a fair guess that's what they were doing beforehand.
I didn't create the thread as a rant against bikes. we all take liberties, just hoped it might prompt someone to apply a little consideration before doing so.
Sounds like the OP did the right things - having overtaken a vehicle he did his mirror signal manoeuvre to pull back in but a bike undertaking the vehicle he had just overtaken suddenly filled that space.Having thought about it the only way the biker got where he was was via undertaking/filtering between L1/L2 and then 'joining' L2 in front of the car I was overtaking at the point I was pulling in, such that I didn't see him do so.
After I was given the stare of death they proceeded to speed off filtering/weaving between the traffic in L3/4 so it's a fair guess that's what they were doing beforehand.
I didn't create the thread as a rant against bikes. we all take liberties, just hoped it might prompt someone to apply a little consideration before doing so.
So the biker had put himself in big blind spot by being alongside, whilst undertaking, the car that the OP was overtaking.
A driver can't account for every unexpected eventuality and all the good observation in world wouldn't have allowed the OP to see through the car he was overtaking to spot that a bike was undertaking the same car.
In this case the bike should perhaps have been a little more aware that people proceeding and obeying the usual rules of the road might just do what is quite a normal thing - and that following overtake a car might actually pull into the space in front of the car they have just overtaken - a space that to all intense and purposes should never suddenly be filled by an undertaking bike.
Until/Unless the rules on motorways are changed to overtake on either side then it's obvious that if someone doesn't follow the existing rules of overtake using the offside lane then there's a risk and that risk isn't the fault of the undertaken driver.As for bikes in addition to overtake using the offside lane there's nothing in the rules which say that a three or four lane motorway can have more lanes added to it by vehicles which are narrow enough to create an extra lane by driving between the lanes as they wish.
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