RE: No more tax discs!

[kVA]

Getragdogleg said:

Village nosey parker will not look and report and there are no anpr in the sticks so no real need to buy tax at all, oh, no police patrols due to staff shortages and the fact that my area is very rural.

I forsee a lot of cars just being used with no tax or mot now you don't need to buy a disc the MOT is not so likely to be done.

The country is not all motorways and streetlights, ANPR and Police cars. quite a lot is very rural.

Next TomTom update - ANPR camera locations...?

[kVA]

I haven't read the whole thread here, but I foresee number plate theft escalating massively

[AJB]

kVA said:

I haven't read the whole thread here, but I foresee number plate theft escalating massively

Why? Nothing has changed. There is already ANPR. There are already databases showing insurance, tax and MOT status. The DVLA can already automatically send fines if a car isn't taxed or SORNed without anybody or any camera having to see the car.

All that's changed is that people no longer have to show a bit of paper on the car to prove tax status, just like they currently don't have to show a bit of paper for MOT or insurance status.

And given that the police now use their database rather than the bit of paper as the definitive answer, the bit of paper has become increasingly irrelevant.

If we had to have a bit of paper for something, I'd rather it was for the MOT than for tax as they don't send out reminders for that, so it's very easy for people to drive around for months with no MOT and not realise that it's expired.

[Blue Oval84]

kVA said:

I haven't read the whole thread here, but I foresee number plate theft escalating massively

I fail to see how the situation will change. If I wanted to avoid paying my tax, and was prepared to steal number plates to avoid it, then a little piece of paper in the windscreen isn't going to stop me.

I could knock up a colour print of a tax disc that would stand up to most passing scrutiny, by the time a Policeman is up close and personal to the forged disc I'd say it would be game over or the dodgy number plates anyway.

I can't wait to see the back of them, my windscreen looks much less cluttered at the moment without the disc (haven't displayed mine for weeks as need a new tax disc holder)

[kVA]

AJB said:

kVA said:

I haven't read the whole thread here, but I foresee number plate theft escalating massively

Why? Nothing has changed. There is already ANPR. There are already databases showing insurance, tax and MOT status. The DVLA can already automatically send fines if a car isn't taxed or SORNed without anybody or any camera having to see the car.

All that's changed is that people no longer have to show a bit of paper on the car to prove tax status, just like they currently don't have to show a bit of paper for MOT or insurance status.

And given that the police now use their database rather than the bit of paper as the definitive answer, the bit of paper has become increasingly irrelevant.

If we had to have a bit of paper for something, I'd rather it was for the MOT than for tax as they don't send out reminders for that, so it's very easy for people to drive around for months with no MOT and not realise that it's expired.

You are missing the point here - the sort of people who steal number plates to avoid congestion charge, etc, currently, are probably not capable of such rational logic...

It SHOULDN'T make any difference, but it will... The people who have no intention to buy a tax disc now don't even have to worry about parking their car on the public roads and risking a passing Traffic Warden / Copper having an excuse to dig a little deeper... Just find another car like yours, where the owner has paid the VED (easy to check online), copy/steal the number plates and hey presto, no need to buy VED ever again

[AJB]

kVA said:

You are missing the point here - the sort of people who steal number plates to avoid congestion charge, etc, currently, are probably not capable of such rational logic...

It SHOULDN'T make any difference, but it will... The people who have no intention to buy a tax disc now don't even have to worry about parking their car on the public roads and risking a passing Traffic Warden / Copper having an excuse to dig a little deeper... Just find another car like yours, where the owner has paid the VED (easy to check online), copy/steal the number plates and hey presto, no need to buy VED ever again

I agree that there's plenty of incentive to steal numberplates - speed cameras primarily, but also ANPR for tax/insurance, congestion charge, etc.

But like BlueOval84 said, it'd be so easy to knock up a colour print of a disc that looked ok from a distance to a passing traffic warden or policeman (much easier than stealing a numberplate from a matching car in my opinion). So I still don't see that the paper disc going will change much.

[kVA]

AJB said:

But like BlueOval84 said, it'd be so easy to knock up a colour print of a disc that looked ok from a distance to a passing traffic warden or policeman (much easier than stealing a numberplate from a matching car in my opinion).

Really???? At night, in a public / train station / football stadium / industrial car park - or even at the side of the road? takes all of about 30 seconds... I know this, as I had mine stolen and a neighbour watched it all (stupid enough to do it in broad daylight). By the time they had called the police, they were long gone...

And knocking up a tax disc also introduces the possibility of a criminal record for fraud (rather than just a traffic offence for not displaying a tax disc).

Currently, if you are not displaying a valid tax disc, you are committing an offence (whether you have one or not). Under the new system, unless you are caught for committing some other offence (in which case they will throw the book at you obviously) how can you possibly be caught? Especially if you have cloned the plates rather than actually stolen them (so they haven't been reported as stolen and therefore flagged on ANPR)

Personally, I prefer to have the tax disc INSIDE the car, but it would be fairer if the tax was just added to fuel costs, so you only pay for what you use. Sadly, taxation and fairness don't go in the same sentence...

[Blue Oval84]

kVA said:

And knocking up a tax disc also introduces the possibility of a criminal record for fraud (rather than just a traffic offence for not displaying a tax disc).

If you're going to run around on stolen number plates, I very much doubt you'll give a toss about them adding a fraud charge to your record to go with the number plate offences.

The people that want to get around the VED are already doing it, the tax disc is NO impediment to them.

For those of us that pay the VED, the disc is just a pain in the arse to sort out.

Also, the availability of Monthly Direct Debit is a very good thing, if anything it will make tax dodging less of an issue as people won't struggle so much to fork out for 6/12 months at one go.

[AJB]

kVA said:

And knocking up a tax disc also introduces the possibility of a criminal record for fraud (rather than just a traffic offence for not displaying a tax disc).

Yes, but if someone is happy to steal numberplates, I'd guess that wouldn't worry them too much

I'd have thought that the kind of person who thinks "I don't want to pay to tax my car, so I'll steal some numberplates from a matching car instead, SORN mine, and carry on driving", would be just as likely to think under the current system "I don't want to pay to tax my car, so I'll knock up a fake disc, or steal a disc, and I'll steal some numberplates so ANPR doesn't flag up that I've SORNed it". And, to be honest, people who are happy to steal plates would probably do so even if there wasn't VED, as it'll save a fortune in parking/speeding/congestion fines.

kVA said:

it would be fairer if the tax was just added to fuel costs, so you only pay for what you use. Sadly, taxation and fairness don't go in the same sentence...

This I completely agree with...

[Jim AK]

Problem with this idea is that each Police Force updates their database individually. Last year I was stopped in Hertfordshire by Police & they knew everything was in order. Two months later I was stopped in London by Metropolitan Police after the ANPR picked up that my registration number was still showing registered to my previous car. After taking the matter up with them I was told the database had not been recently updated, my `new` car was bought about 5 months previously!

I have also experienced problems with insurance database too. Last year my insurers (Aviva) failed to list a lot of policies something I only discovered when trying to buy VED online & this year my broker transposed the letters of my plate & MID contacted me saying car was not insured or SORNed.

On these experiences I am not at all happy the disc is to be discontinued.

I now keep copies of all documents hidden in the car. A copy receipt for my VED will be included in future.

Always remember: A computer is only as good as the input information, & To err is human. To really foul up takes a computer.

[TooMany2cvs]

KimJongHealthy said:

Here's an interesting scenario: you pay monthly by direct debit every 1st of the month. You take a long holiday starting on 29th, your DD gets rejected by the bank for any reason while your'e away. You come back just to find that car clamped or towed away and few weeks' bill, I'm pretty sure it is double figures per day + towing fee + untaxed vehicle fine on top of that.

Meanwhile, your insurance DD also bounced.

This "stealing number plates" mullarkey's also complete cobblers. I bought a pair of plates off fleaBay t'other day. No ID check, no V5C check, nada. A tenner, delivered, for the pair.

[Skyedriver]

KTF said:

No. Try reading up on the subject at hand.

It'll happen, they can locate you with a mobile phone, it's only a matter of time before you are regulated in your own car

[zebedee]

TooMany2cvs said:

KimJongHealthy said:

Here's an interesting scenario: you pay monthly by direct debit every 1st of the month. You take a long holiday starting on 29th, your DD gets rejected by the bank for any reason while your'e away. You come back just to find that car clamped or towed away and few weeks' bill, I'm pretty sure it is double figures per day + towing fee + untaxed vehicle fine on top of that.

Meanwhile, your insurance DD also bounced.

.

Point being what? He's on holiday, he's not driving without insurance. He is untaxed though, so his car has gone because the computer says it should.

[Walter Sobchak]

The thing with all this numberplate stealing is, isn't the owner of the genuine car likely to report their theft to the Police fairly quickly making whoever stole them likely to get caught.

[Blue Oval84]

I find most of the discussion in here bordering on the ridiculous, anyone who pays their tax and stays legal today is not suddenly going to start stealing number plates (which as the guy above said, would be good for a few days at most before they would be reported stolen) just because they don't have to put an easily faked piece of paper in the windscreen. They'll generally be pleased that they can pay monthly now, and at less cost than it currently costs just to buy a 6 month disc and pay up front for it.

Likewise anyone who today is happy to break the law will carry on regardless, they just won't have to bother printing out their own tax disc.

All the "scenarios" people are presenting to illustrate why we should keep this anachronism in our windscreens are frankly bizarre and just don't fit the real world.

And as one final mini-rant, I'm staggered at the number of contributors to this thread who've never heard of ANPR and think that the DVLA/Police actually walk up and down the road checking physical tax discs when they can just do a whole street from inside a van in about 30 seconds.

[Walter Sobchak]

Exactly, I don't think stealing numberplates of a matching car is a big thing, because it's counter productive and is likely to get the thief caught if they're driving around with stolen plates on their car, if people are having numberplates stolen I would guess it's much more likely their getting used to fill up with petrol without paying, then swapping them back rather than for the purpose of avoiding road tax or insurance.

[zebedee]

Blue Oval84 said:

I'm staggered at the number of contributors to this thread who've never heard of ANPR and think that the DVLA/Police actually walk up and down the road checking physical tax discs when they can just do a whole street from inside a van in about 30 seconds.

There are a lot more police officers on foot outside of vans than there are in vans. Also I suspect those vans don't go rural as someone else said.

As I also said, I don't have a van linked to the DVLA, but I can see an out of date tax disc, so I can do something about it if someone is still driving around whilst SORN and pushing up my taxes.

[killingjoker]

SteveSteveson said:

killingjoker said:

Terminator X said:

Prelude to massive hike in VED rates "disguised" within modest monthly increases ... s!

TX.

At last. Glad someone else is awake enough to spot/understand this.

Ye... No... Just more paranoid nonsense. VED will continue to be quoted in yearly costs, increases will continue just the same as they always have, most people will keep paying for the full year to avoid the 5% DD charge and the world will continue to spin long after we are all dead and buried.

Paranoia? Nope. Cynical experience? Yes.

[Roony]

This is great news for us cabrio owners...... I used to hate leaving the car parked with the foof down in fear that the disc would be nicked.....

[The_Burg]

Roony said:

This is great news for us cabrio owners...... I used to hate leaving the car parked with the foof down in fear that the disc would be nicked.....

Even worse with a bike.

Personally i'd like to see an insurance disk instead.