Rovers - were they really that bad?

Rovers - were they really that bad?

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RoverP6B

4,338 posts

127 months

Thursday 26th March 2015
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Old thread, I know, but I wanted to chip in anyway.

I ran a P6 3500S daily for eight years. Apart from the rust, and the manual gearbox not being up to the V8's torque (I ended up breaking a layshaft on reverse), it was a genuinely lovely, brilliantly-engineered car, endlessly reliable, easy to work on, went like you-know-what off a shovel (184bhp and 210ftlb in 1270kg isn't to be sniffed at!), and even at a steady 120mph, the engine was so refined... it was a bit under-geared (70mph was 3000rpm in 4th), it could really have done with a 5-speed 'box and/or overdrive. The clutch was very heavy, which was a pain in traffic. The body roll was comically awful, but oddly it didn't seem to affect the handling, which was exceedingly good, thanks to the very unorthodox suspension (the front springs and dampers were mounted horizontally on the bulkhead, and the de Dion rear end was very advanced for its time, actually better than that on the Astons of the time) - loads of grip even on period 185-section rubber, although it would snap into oversteer quite quickly if provoked. The cabin was very well-designed, a strict four-seater with lovely sculpted bucket seats and excellent ergonomics (such as the principal rotary switches all being differently shaped, so you could still find them even if the lighting failed). It was also notable for the siting of the fuel tank, on top of the rear axle, sandwiched in between two heavy-gauge steel firewalls - it would be damn near (if not completely) impossible for the fuel tank to be damaged in a rear impact. The whole car was designed with crash safety in mind - crumple zones front and rear, a steering column designed to pull the wheel away from the driver, energy-absorbing honeycomb plastics used throughout the dash structure... a really astonishingly clever, advanced piece of kit for the time, and very competitively priced. V8 luxury for BMW 2002 money - and arguably a better car than said icon (and better than a 105-series Alfa Romeo coupé, not to mention the in-house rival from Triumph). In many respects, I and a lot of others felt that it was actually better than a Jaguar XJ6 - similar power-to-weight to the 4.2 (more power than the 2.8), vastly less weight, and possibly better handling. The variable-ratio steering was just lovely - effortlessly light and finger-twirly at parking speeds, but pretty heavy at higher speeds, giving both motorway stability and B-road feel. It was huge fun to chuck around.

In the end, the tinworm got my P6 and most of the rest, but I understand the mechanical bits and at least some of the interior live on. If I had dry storage, I'd happily have another now. I think it's a real shame that, whereas you can build a new MGB or Spridget or Triumph Spitfire from scratch using Heritage bits, nobody's doing that for the P6. It is, as far as I'm concerned, an overlooked (if not outright forgotten) masterpiece. You'd have thought that such excellence, combined with rarity, would have driven prices up, but no, sadly not - it remains near enough scrap money. The much inferior SD1 is actually eclipsing it in value now.

anonymous-user

53 months

Thursday 26th March 2015
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RoverP6B said:
Old thread, I know, but I wanted to chip in anyway.

I ran a P6 3500S daily for eight years. Apart from the rust, and the manual gearbox not being up to the V8's torque (I ended up breaking a layshaft on reverse), it was a genuinely lovely, brilliantly-engineered car, endlessly reliable, easy to work on, went like you-know-what off a shovel (184bhp and 210ftlb in 1270kg isn't to be sniffed at!), and even at a steady 120mph, the engine was so refined... it was a bit under-geared (70mph was 3000rpm in 4th), it could really have done with a 5-speed 'box and/or overdrive. The clutch was very heavy, which was a pain in traffic. The body roll was comically awful, but oddly it didn't seem to affect the handling, which was exceedingly good, thanks to the very unorthodox suspension (the front springs and dampers were mounted horizontally on the bulkhead, and the de Dion rear end was very advanced for its time, actually better than that on the Astons of the time) - loads of grip even on period 185-section rubber, although it would snap into oversteer quite quickly if provoked. The cabin was very well-designed, a strict four-seater with lovely sculpted bucket seats and excellent ergonomics (such as the principal rotary switches all being differently shaped, so you could still find them even if the lighting failed). It was also notable for the siting of the fuel tank, on top of the rear axle, sandwiched in between two heavy-gauge steel firewalls - it would be damn near (if not completely) impossible for the fuel tank to be damaged in a rear impact. The whole car was designed with crash safety in mind - crumple zones front and rear, a steering column designed to pull the wheel away from the driver, energy-absorbing honeycomb plastics used throughout the dash structure... a really astonishingly clever, advanced piece of kit for the time, and very competitively priced. V8 luxury for BMW 2002 money - and arguably a better car than said icon (and better than a 105-series Alfa Romeo coupé, not to mention the in-house rival from Triumph). In many respects, I and a lot of others felt that it was actually better than a Jaguar XJ6 - similar power-to-weight to the 4.2 (more power than the 2.8), vastly less weight, and possibly better handling. The variable-ratio steering was just lovely - effortlessly light and finger-twirly at parking speeds, but pretty heavy at higher speeds, giving both motorway stability and B-road feel. It was huge fun to chuck around.

In the end, the tinworm got my P6 and most of the rest, but I understand the mechanical bits and at least some of the interior live on. If I had dry storage, I'd happily have another now. I think it's a real shame that, whereas you can build a new MGB or Spridget or Triumph Spitfire from scratch using Heritage bits, nobody's doing that for the P6. It is, as far as I'm concerned, an overlooked (if not outright forgotten) masterpiece. You'd have thought that such excellence, combined with rarity, would have driven prices up, but no, sadly not - it remains near enough scrap money. The much inferior SD1 is actually eclipsing it in value now.
The P6 was the last proper Rover I think. The SD1 had Triumph designed engines in the 6 cylinder versions (which had potential but were flawed and unreliable) and proper BL engineering and build throughout. I think the 75 was the only car they made that came close to matching the quality of the P6 but they even managed to ruin that with ever more aggressive cost reductions. The cheesy retro styling of the 75 was worlds apart from the forward thinking and up to the minute approach of the P6 too,

The rebadged Hondas they made in between were not bad cars (perhaps with the exception of the 800 - the one car Rover did have any serious input into) but aside from a nicer interior and some fading glory with British buyers I am not sure what else Rover brought to the table.

mikal83

5,340 posts

251 months

Thursday 26th March 2015
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They were crap as most brit cars were from the late 50's thru late 70's. The influx of German/Japanese cars dragged the overall standards way up. Some makes were OK but OVERALL they were crap.

RoverP6B

4,338 posts

127 months

Thursday 26th March 2015
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mikal83 said:
They were crap as most brit cars were from the late 50's thru late 70's. The influx of German/Japanese cars dragged the overall standards way up. Some makes were OK but OVERALL they were crap.
Perhaps you might like to refer to those of us with direct experience of them. My late-50s to early-60s designed, 1973-built Rover was, in most respects, a truly excellent car, a landmark of its time, a world-beater. Far better than BMWs of the same era. Japanese cars? Does anyone remember how shockingly awful the build quality of 70s Datsuns and Mitsubishis was? Those things were rusting before they even left the showroom.

I think the 75 was a story of missed opportunities. It could have been so much more than it was. It would have been the first ever 5-star EuroNCAP car, but BMW responded by removing the curtain airbags from the standard equipment and putting them on the options list, thus denying Rover the glory of that publicity and handing it, several years later, to the 2nd-gen Renault Laguna.

J4CKO

41,286 posts

199 months

Thursday 26th March 2015
quotequote all
mikal83 said:
They were crap as most brit cars were from the late 50's thru late 70's. The influx of German/Japanese cars dragged the overall standards way up. Some makes were OK but OVERALL they were crap.
Yeah, the majesty of the Beetle, Variant and the van type things, VW's were joke cars until the Golf arrived in 74, but realistically it was later than that before they were around in any numbers.

The Japanese stuff was definitely more reliable but rusted even more vigorously than the home grown stuff, remember British cars were not just Allegros and Marinas, the Escort and Cortina were designed and built here, there were decent Vauxhalls of the Era.

It was never as cut and dried as our home grown stuff was crap and the Germans and Japanese were awesome.


Dakkon

7,826 posts

252 months

Thursday 26th March 2015
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Maracus said:
My old man had an 820si, 214si and a Montego Turbo.

All were utterly ste. Unreliable, rusting and poorly built rubbish.
My dad had an 820se, went through eight alternators along with a host of other issues, utter garbage.

anonymous-user

53 months

Thursday 26th March 2015
quotequote all
J4CKO said:
mikal83 said:
They were crap as most brit cars were from the late 50's thru late 70's. The influx of German/Japanese cars dragged the overall standards way up. Some makes were OK but OVERALL they were crap.
Yeah, the majesty of the Beetle, Variant and the van type things, VW's were joke cars until the Golf arrived in 74, but realistically it was later than that before they were around in any numbers.

The Japanese stuff was definitely more reliable but rusted even more vigorously than the home grown stuff, remember British cars were not just Allegros and Marinas, the Escort and Cortina were designed and built here, there were decent Vauxhalls of the Era.

It was never as cut and dried as our home grown stuff was crap and the Germans and Japanese were awesome.
Quite right, the fact is that pretty much all cars were pretty crap well into the 80s and beyond.

welshpete said:
C'mon guys, lets not forget one of the best engines ever produced, the ubiquitous Rover V8, which, its various guises, has powered Britains motors for years. It was used in many great cars, Tvrs, MGs,
Stags, LDVs to mention but a few, not to forget the many that were transplanted into a massive variety of vehicles. (Like my old Chevette), Yes, I lnow, I bow my head in shame at admitting ownership of one of them. It was at its best in the SD1, I had several of these over the years, one of which featured in a 1988 copy of Max Power. It was "boy racered" to a 3.9 with twin ceramic hybrid turbos, ful race cams, lightened, balanced, hybrid pistons, forged and fully kicked about, to produce 556 bhp at the wheels. 1/4 mile at Santa Pod was seen off in 11.98 seconds, as was 7 gallons of fuel in half an hour!
As you would expect, below 2.5krpm, due to the cams it sounded like a bucket of spanners being rattled, but above that it sang like a thunder storm in a concert hall. At full chat it hit 178 mph, and drank fuel at a rate of 7mpg, or 12 if driven sensibly. So, in answer, yes, the cars themselves may have been disgraceful at times, but the mighty v8 Rover engine is, in my humble opinion, one of the best ever made. (Despite its origins being American!
I'm sorry but I can't let that slide. The only way you can think the Rover V8 was "the best engine ever made" is if you're only comparing it to the utter crap that was available when it first appeared in the 60s. I've always found it to be a massively overhyped and disappointing engine, and absolutely comically outdated by the 80s. They seem to be unable to make it past 100K without dying, without massive tuning work (as you carried out) they make hopeless power and torque figures and they are outrageously thirsty.

Compared to a BMC B series 4 banger fair enough it's awesome, but for most of it's life it was hopelessly uncompetitive with competing 6 and 8 cylinder designs. Even the I6 in the SD1 had to be hobbled to prevent it upstaging the V8. The only reason every British company turning out cars in sheds used it was because it was cheap and there weren't many alternatives available.

Edited by dme123 on Thursday 26th March 10:41

mikal83

5,340 posts

251 months

Thursday 26th March 2015
quotequote all
J4CKO said:
Yeah, the majesty of the Beetle, Variant and the van type things, VW's were joke cars until the Golf arrived in 74, but realistically it was later than that before they were around in any numbers.

The Japanese stuff was definitely more reliable but rusted even more vigorously than the home grown stuff, remember British cars were not just Allegros and Marinas, the Escort and Cortina were designed and built here, there were decent Vauxhalls of the Era.

It was never as cut and dried as our home grown stuff was crap and the Germans and Japanese were awesome.
Perhaps if you read my post again.......you'll see what I was saying.. Beetles. How many millions were made. Allegros/Marinas how many are left in proportion to how many built. Same with escorts/cortinas. Is a "new" mini a british car.....a jag, confused.com

J4CKO

41,286 posts

199 months

Thursday 26th March 2015
quotequote all
mikal83 said:
J4CKO said:
Yeah, the majesty of the Beetle, Variant and the van type things, VW's were joke cars until the Golf arrived in 74, but realistically it was later than that before they were around in any numbers.

The Japanese stuff was definitely more reliable but rusted even more vigorously than the home grown stuff, remember British cars were not just Allegros and Marinas, the Escort and Cortina were designed and built here, there were decent Vauxhalls of the Era.

It was never as cut and dried as our home grown stuff was crap and the Germans and Japanese were awesome.
Perhaps if you read my post again.......you'll see what I was saying.. Beetles. How many millions were made. Allegros/Marinas how many are left in proportion to how many built. Same with escorts/cortinas. Is a "new" mini a british car.....a jag, confused.com
Beetles were the result of Hitlers desire to provide a peoples car, it carried on way too long, something we were good at as well (original Mini), the UK Fords were, at the time were pretty much designed, built and sold in the UK where nowadays the Mini is desgined between the UK and Germany, built here and shipped all over the world but were were talking about 50, 60s and seventies.




RoverP6B

4,338 posts

127 months

Thursday 26th March 2015
quotequote all
Actually, the Beetle was a scam to get the German people to pay for a new munitions factory, with Porsche shamelessly ripping off Hans Ledwinka's work for Tatra...

vtecyo

2,122 posts

128 months

Thursday 26th March 2015
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I would have bought a 1.4 ZR at 17 had I not read about the K series engine on the way to the bank.

anonymous-user

53 months

Thursday 26th March 2015
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vtecyo said:
I would have bought a 1.4 ZR at 17 had I not read about the K series engine on the way to the bank.
Your loss. Can be fixed from £100 up to £300, and that's for a GOOD fix.

I did mine. Took me 10 days from start to finish, that's alongside college and with no help from anybody.

So if a novice can do it, head gasket is not an excuse.

CO2000

3,177 posts

208 months

Thursday 26th March 2015
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Dakkon said:
Maracus said:
My old man had an 820si, 214si and a Montego Turbo.

All were utterly ste. Unreliable, rusting and poorly built rubbish.
My dad had an 820se, went through eight alternators along with a host of other issues, utter garbage.
Who made the alternators though? but who then specced them? Still a red card to Rover!

PoleDriver

28,616 posts

193 months

Thursday 26th March 2015
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Taz1383 said:
Your loss. Can be fixed from £100 up to £300, and that's for a GOOD fix.

I did mine. Took me 10 days from start to finish, that's alongside college and with no help from anybody.

So if a novice can do it, head gasket is not an excuse.
What's the point of having a car if it is off the road for 10 days? Most people need a car for everyday transport!
This is why I would never, ever, touch any offering from BL,Rover Triumph or whatever incarnation they happen to be in!
And yes, I have had quite a few in the past!

Chris1255

203 posts

110 months

Thursday 26th March 2015
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PoleDriver said:
Taz1383 said:
Your loss. Can be fixed from £100 up to £300, and that's for a GOOD fix.

I did mine. Took me 10 days from start to finish, that's alongside college and with no help from anybody.

So if a novice can do it, head gasket is not an excuse.
What's the point of having a car if it is off the road for 10 days? Most people need a car for everyday transport!
This is why I would never, ever, touch any offering from BL,Rover Triumph or whatever incarnation they happen to be in!
And yes, I have had quite a few in the past!
You could have it done by a mobile mechanic in a few hours for around £300 if staying on the road is important. Taz has a very detailed thread on another forum going through what he did. OK it's not for everyone but surely the sign of a true pistonhead to be prepared to learn how to do something like that from scratch.

Chris1255

203 posts

110 months

Thursday 26th March 2015
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Quite happy with my sheddy 25 bought a couple of years ago for £900 as a 'temporary' car. Taken four people to the South of France in it when a friend's Golf broke down. No rust unlike say a Focus or Ka of the same age. 1.4 is still a pretty nippy engine for its size and they handle nicely. And it's great having something you don't have to worry too much about scratches or where you park it.

For that money what's not to like? Much rather have it than a Corsa/Fiesta/Polo of the same age.

You have to not care too much what other people think. Strangely the rule of thumb is the people who say they're nice are the ones who have driven or owned one, the ones who say they're crap haven't....

Negative Creep

24,942 posts

226 months

Thursday 26th March 2015
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Anyone else think the 800 Coupe has aged really well?



I certainly wouldn't say no to one

Spanglepants

1,743 posts

136 months

Thursday 26th March 2015
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Had 2 early SD1s - 3500 V8s- which to this day I still miss. Build quality was horrendous though but I think had the build quality been a lot better surely it would have been a match for the Germans at the time?
Ex wife had a rover 75 Spirit 1.8. Have to say the engine was a cracker and it went quite well. Head gasket went though and after putting it into a garage to get fixed their advice was get rid of as soon as possible as the liners had been knocked down into the bores. Ive no idea if this was a load of BS but we did part ex it and to be fair I still see it driven around by an old boy so who knows?

Mate who was giving me a lift into work had an MG TF and I have to say it was horrible, didn't like one thing about it.

anonymous-user

53 months

Thursday 26th March 2015
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Negative Creep said:
Anyone else think the 800 Coupe has aged really well?



I certainly wouldn't say no to one
I had one in Vitesse guise and thought it was very handsome at the time. If they'd restyled the 800 at facelift to look more like a 4 door version of that things could have gone better.

It was poorly put together and the 2 litre turbocharged engine was very rough (if effective) and totally out of character for the car.

Steffan

10,362 posts

227 months

Thursday 26th March 2015
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I learnt to drive four wheel cars in a venerable P3 Rover 75 which was exceptionally well built in Lode lane Solihull. Confirms my age and the quality of the Rover then, that car was in our family for 15 years travelled over 120,00o miles in that time broe diwn once (inadequate maintenance by my Archdeacon father spark plugs fouled) soon sorted and was still going strong when we sold the car. In a pn age when few cars could run high mileages. Superbly built.

I actually lived within sight of that facility and I often admired the human outpourings that emanated as the shifts changed. Sadly Rover nosedived steadily once they were absorbed into BL. Jaguar also dived in that awful waste ground of car manufacturing until John Egan, (I think) saw the red lights and they exited back into a separate company. Now owned by an Indian firm, hardly progress is it?

It was common knwkegede within Solihull then that there were massive fiddles going on AR Rover and contiuning in the later guises, with individuals clocking in and and going home and so on. The tragedy of this is that there were some very good designs within BL, the Mini being the outstanding example. The Range Rover being another!

50 years after Issigonis had offered that opportunity that the the revolutionary Mini represented to the then BMC, company, the cars still had all the faults that they had from their beginnings, when the production run started. It was total madness and totally unsupportable. There should have been hundreds of alterations to the leaking, rusting, very poorly built cars. Instead the management milked the proceeds and disappeared with the benefits personally. The final Rover recreation became an opportunity for a repeat of that performance the 75 being an excellent design with the K series not being the engine it needed. No business can survive massive, decades, of mistakes like that. Insolvency was inevitable.

There were many good designs but no car company can fail as utterly as that crowd did with, the Allegro, the Marina, the Austin Ambassador/Princess and soon on year after year. These cars were never worth owning or driving and that reputation destroyed the brand. Totally inept and self serving apparatchiks took over. Could have been a training ground for modern EU politicans.

Tragedy for the West Midlands, but absolutely inevitable with the set up there was at that time. Major mistakes with those responsible sailing off into the sunset with millions. Sadly a common story in the UK in recent years.