Rovers - were they really that bad?
Discussion
My father had a mg zs for 10 years bought in 2005 was only 4 years old at the time for 3.5k. First job done was the hg as my dads commute was 40 miles per day. It ran without fault bar 1 alternator and the master cylinder failing until my dads commute become just 3-4 miles a day which isn't good for any car. After a year of doing this the stress of constant warming and cooling twice a day cracked the n04 cylinder liner.
It was still on its original clutch at 140,000 miles no rust at all if we decided to replace the engine it would still be running now.
In that time it took 4 people to many a btcc race meet in easy and still return 45mpg on a run out of the 1.8 engine.
I drove if when I first passed my test my father wasn't to well at the time so I took over driving it it was a fun car to drive and the engine is a lot better than the na8 engine in my current mx5 mk1.
Ive done several hg on various rovers/mg and most were down to exsisting water leaks not being sorted.
Under development at the end was the real problem for rover/mg.
It was still on its original clutch at 140,000 miles no rust at all if we decided to replace the engine it would still be running now.
In that time it took 4 people to many a btcc race meet in easy and still return 45mpg on a run out of the 1.8 engine.
I drove if when I first passed my test my father wasn't to well at the time so I took over driving it it was a fun car to drive and the engine is a lot better than the na8 engine in my current mx5 mk1.
Ive done several hg on various rovers/mg and most were down to exsisting water leaks not being sorted.
Under development at the end was the real problem for rover/mg.
V8 Fettler said:
My dreary daily diesel VAG is dismal, so I have occasionally looked at the concept of a P6 with a modern diesel engine as a daily car, can't make it work financially and the minimal crash protection from M25 tailgaters probably means it won't happen. I'll have another look later this year, just in case.
Don't put a diesel in a P6! If you must engine-swap one, get a 4-cylinder and put something nicer in - I've wondered if perhaps the Mazda V6 (a very compact quad-cam unit) could be made to work. It's a popular swap down under and somebody's making bellhousings to mate it to the MX5 gearbox for RWD. Check out the video on "TheSmokingTire" on Youtube of this drivetrain (running a Megasquirt ECU) in a Kiwi Vauxhall Viva...lee_erm said:
I had a ZR last year for about 6 months. The K-Series engine in it was an absolute peach, I can't stress enough how good it was! IMO a nicer engine than any 4 pot VTEC, less reliable yes.
I'd love an Elise with one in
Go K! A much under appreciated engine.I'd love an Elise with one in
Edited by lee_erm on Thursday 26th March 20:27
And remember, Rover had a new C-segment mid-size hatchback to replace the 45 (and the TCV mid-size SUV thing) in development when they went bust. They were said to be only a few months away from production. It still makes me angry that then-Business Secretary Patricia Hewitt denied MG Rover the loan they requested to finance a few months' operation while they got the new cars out. The MG Rover bailout would have cost a tiny fraction of that of Lloyds/HBOS, with a far better ROI for the taxpayer...
Chris1255 said:
You could have it done by a mobile mechanic in a few hours for around £300 if staying on the road is important. Taz has a very detailed thread on another forum going through what he did. OK it's not for everyone but surely the sign of a true pistonhead to be prepared to learn how to do something like that from scratch.
There's clearly some broken logic involved here. A 10 year old car requires, like you say, £300 at most to fix a problem. That INCLUDES all main engine parts, water pump, belts, gasket, fluids etc etc.
I would love if someone could find a car, that can have a severe limiting problem that can't be ignored, that can be fixed for such a price, other than a car with a K engine.
Thankfully my car has been otherwise brilliant. MOT with no advisories, no warnings with emissions. Do many 10 year old cars fly through their MOT's like that?
RoverP6B said:
And remember, Rover had a new C-segment mid-size hatchback to replace the 45 (and the TCV mid-size SUV thing) in development when they went bust. They were said to be only a few months away from production. It still makes me angry that then-Business Secretary Patricia Hewitt denied MG Rover the loan they requested to finance a few months' operation while they got the new cars out. The MG Rover bailout would have cost a tiny fraction of that of Lloyds/HBOS, with a far better ROI for the taxpayer...
The phoenix group were slowly turning the company around. They did everything they could to keep the company running, and the hand they required was there in the form of Nanjing and yep, UK loveeeee killing companies. I wonder if things would be different today? Cameron loves banging on about manufacturing!
I'm not sure I agree that Phoenix were doing all they could - I seem to recall they were taking quite inappropriate wage/bonus packages in the circumstances - but a 45 replacement and what would have been one of the first road-biased upmarket midsize SUVs to market (as opposed to stuff like the CR-V, Rav-4, Freelander), beaten only by the X3, if memory serves - surely that would have given the company enough cash to get back up on its feet?
I still think Tata should revive the brand. Jaguar has become this BMW/Maserati/Porsche competitor, the emphasis very much on dynamics and sportiness - Rover as a somewhere-to-the-right-of-Mercedes-Benz/cheaper Bentley/Rolls-Royce type offering could slot into the gap between Jaguar and Land Rover very nicely... people are starting to forget about the bad old days... bombarde them with enough images of P5s, P6s, SD1s and they'll start to think of Rover as being rather more credible...
I still think Tata should revive the brand. Jaguar has become this BMW/Maserati/Porsche competitor, the emphasis very much on dynamics and sportiness - Rover as a somewhere-to-the-right-of-Mercedes-Benz/cheaper Bentley/Rolls-Royce type offering could slot into the gap between Jaguar and Land Rover very nicely... people are starting to forget about the bad old days... bombarde them with enough images of P5s, P6s, SD1s and they'll start to think of Rover as being rather more credible...
RoverP6B said:
I'm not sure I agree that Phoenix were doing all they could - I seem to recall they were taking quite inappropriate wage/bonus packages in the circumstances - but a 45 replacement and what would have been one of the first road-biased upmarket midsize SUVs to market (as opposed to stuff like the CR-V, Rav-4, Freelander), beaten only by the X3, if memory serves - surely that would have given the company enough cash to get back up on its feet?
I still think Tata should revive the brand. Jaguar has become this BMW/Maserati/Porsche competitor, the emphasis very much on dynamics and sportiness - Rover as a somewhere-to-the-right-of-Mercedes-Benz/cheaper Bentley/Rolls-Royce type offering could slot into the gap between Jaguar and Land Rover very nicely... people are starting to forget about the bad old days... bombarde them with enough images of P5s, P6s, SD1s and they'll start to think of Rover as being rather more credible...
Everything Rover did properly relied on someone else. Between Honda and BMW, they released a few Rovers on Honda platforms, and the R75, which was a BMW car. The 25/45 may have never existed, or maybe they did but only to bide the time before Mini could be taken. I still think Tata should revive the brand. Jaguar has become this BMW/Maserati/Porsche competitor, the emphasis very much on dynamics and sportiness - Rover as a somewhere-to-the-right-of-Mercedes-Benz/cheaper Bentley/Rolls-Royce type offering could slot into the gap between Jaguar and Land Rover very nicely... people are starting to forget about the bad old days... bombarde them with enough images of P5s, P6s, SD1s and they'll start to think of Rover as being rather more credible...
I've read that the X5 was developed with Rover, but Rover never saw any of that through their brand
Taz1383 said:
Everything Rover did properly relied on someone else. Between Honda and BMW, they released a few Rovers on Honda platforms, and the R75, which was a BMW car. The 25/45 may have never existed, or maybe they did but only to bide the time before Mini could be taken.
I've read that the X5 was developed with Rover, but Rover never saw any of that through their brand
The X5 was the application of Range Rover technology (including 4WD and hill descent control) to the E39 5er platform. Of course, BMW flogged Land Rover to Ford - if MG Rover had had the L322 Range Rover... maybe they'd have mucked it up, I don't know, but what a success that ended up being for Ford and then Tata...I've read that the X5 was developed with Rover, but Rover never saw any of that through their brand
The Honda-derived models were simply horrible, unworthy of the Longship badge. I think the 200/25 was basically a smaller, cheapened rebodied 400/45.
The 75 owed very little to BMW. The rear axle was basically that of the E34 5-series minus the diff. Electrics, switchgear, platform and petrol engines were all Rover's.
Actually, given that K-series 4-bangers went in Caterhams, I wonder if the KV6 could likewise be used in a RWD application?
Someone on here loaned their 75 2.5 KV6 to Tiff Needell for a recent Fifth Gear episode - Tiff was actually quite impressed and commented that he now wanted one.
Had a Rover 827 Sterling as a company car 1990-93ish. Lovely smooth 24v Honda V6 engine & auto box. Loaded with goodies, including electric reclining rear seats. Used it as tow car for the Mini racer, and it was a nice place to while away the miles. Cosmetic rust appeared, but it never let me down once.
Had an MG ZS as a first car. Drove it like I stole it, gearbox went pop after less than 25k miles (of which about 6k were mine). Loved it to pieces, which it pretty much reduced itself to during my ownership. I'll defend it like a family member but I'm not compelled to buy another one.
I briefly had a Rover 25 to tool around in as a stopgap car. I enjoyed those few weeks greatly, it was a lovely little car and was much better than its reputation afforded it.
I now drive around in an ex-SOTW Rover 623 GSi, the car's had a pretty hard life in the year or so it's been with me, but it just keeps soldiering on. I'm very impressed with the Rover offerings I've experienced so far; while I can sympathise with the head gasket folks, I haven't had any experience of the issue myself.
I briefly had a Rover 25 to tool around in as a stopgap car. I enjoyed those few weeks greatly, it was a lovely little car and was much better than its reputation afforded it.
I now drive around in an ex-SOTW Rover 623 GSi, the car's had a pretty hard life in the year or so it's been with me, but it just keeps soldiering on. I'm very impressed with the Rover offerings I've experienced so far; while I can sympathise with the head gasket folks, I haven't had any experience of the issue myself.
sebhaque said:
Had an MG ZS as a first car. Drove it like I stole it, gearbox went pop after less than 25k miles (of which about 6k were mine). Loved it to pieces, which it pretty much reduced itself to during my ownership. I'll defend it like a family member but I'm not compelled to buy another one.
I briefly had a Rover 25 to tool around in as a stopgap car. I enjoyed those few weeks greatly, it was a lovely little car and was much better than its reputation afforded it.
I now drive around in an ex-SOTW Rover 623 GSi, the car's had a pretty hard life in the year or so it's been with me, but it just keeps soldiering on. I'm very impressed with the Rover offerings I've experienced so far; while I can sympathise with the head gasket folks, I haven't had any experience of the issue myself.
ZS as a first car?! Jeez. I'm lucky to have a ZR as mine! Cost prohibitive for most, but somehow it's possible formeI briefly had a Rover 25 to tool around in as a stopgap car. I enjoyed those few weeks greatly, it was a lovely little car and was much better than its reputation afforded it.
I now drive around in an ex-SOTW Rover 623 GSi, the car's had a pretty hard life in the year or so it's been with me, but it just keeps soldiering on. I'm very impressed with the Rover offerings I've experienced so far; while I can sympathise with the head gasket folks, I haven't had any experience of the issue myself.
RoverP6B said:
Taz1383 said:
Everything Rover did properly relied on someone else. Between Honda and BMW, they released a few Rovers on Honda platforms, and the R75, which was a BMW car. The 25/45 may have never existed, or maybe they did but only to bide the time before Mini could be taken.
I've read that the X5 was developed with Rover, but Rover never saw any of that through their brand
The X5 was the application of Range Rover technology (including 4WD and hill descent control) to the E39 5er platform. Of course, BMW flogged Land Rover to Ford - if MG Rover had had the L322 Range Rover... maybe they'd have mucked it up, I don't know, but what a success that ended up being for Ford and then Tata...I've read that the X5 was developed with Rover, but Rover never saw any of that through their brand
The Honda-derived models were simply horrible, unworthy of the Longship badge. I think the 200/25 was basically a smaller, cheapened rebodied 400/45.
The 75 owed very little to BMW. The rear axle was basically that of the E34 5-series minus the diff. Electrics, switchgear, platform and petrol engines were all Rover's.
Actually, given that K-series 4-bangers went in Caterhams, I wonder if the KV6 could likewise be used in a RWD application?
Someone on here loaned their 75 2.5 KV6 to Tiff Needell for a recent Fifth Gear episode - Tiff was actually quite impressed and commented that he now wanted one.
I had 2 Montego Estates as Co cars and covered nearly 200,000 moles in them - they were reliable and functional.
I then had a Rover 45 loan car in 2005 and had to return it after 1 week, it was the worst car I'd ever been in. The steering felt like it was actually connected to the car behind it was so vague, the engine just was like David Cameron in a TV debate - ie gutless and the build quality was nothing short of rubbish, in fact I wondered if the car had been put together by people wearing blindfolds.
They deserved to close.
I then had a Rover 45 loan car in 2005 and had to return it after 1 week, it was the worst car I'd ever been in. The steering felt like it was actually connected to the car behind it was so vague, the engine just was like David Cameron in a TV debate - ie gutless and the build quality was nothing short of rubbish, in fact I wondered if the car had been put together by people wearing blindfolds.
They deserved to close.
Ali_T said:
RoverP6B said:
Does anyone remember how shockingly awful the build quality of 70s Datsuns and Mitsubishis was? Those things were rusting before they even left the showroom.
It always amazes me that this is completely forgotten, yet Alfa and Lancia are still the butt of rust jokes to this day, even though the worst cars for rust in recent times have been Mercs, Mazdas and VWs. Most people who talk about cars, including a fair share of PHers wouldn't know a Piston from a pinion gear and simply aren't the sort of characters to actually bother to look in to, well, any subject really and form their own views. You can tell people who do actually know anything because their opinions aren't so 1-sided. The rest merely parrot what they've heard someone else say like puppets.
Pretty sad really. I can't imagine how vacuous life must be if you just go around repeating what other people make you think all the time.
We had 3 600s and a ZT in the family, and my best friend had a ZR. The 600s were good cars. The first, an L series diesel, was a very good car, the second was nice but a bit let down by a reliable but otherwise lacklustre and thirsty Honda engine and the last was a T-series petrol turbo. The whole car had suffered a lot of neglect, was acquired for £150 as a non-runner (broken CV joint which in turn wiped the crankshaft position sensor off) and needed a bit of work to get back to being a good car which offered good performance and vastly better fuel consumption than the Honda engined one. The ZT was a good car (great to drive) and the ZR had an extremely hard life from when it left the forecourt - but took its punishment remarkably well.
The 600s (and Accord) seemed better able to resist rust than comtemporary BMWs and certainly Mercedes, the only weakpoints being at the front and rear of the back wheel arches. BMWs rusted there too, but also the sills and front wheel arches and Mercedes of the era were just water soluable and made MX-5s look well rust-proofed.
So to answer the thread title question - No, Rovers REALLY were not THAT bad. It's just the usual British self-loathing at work in the vast majority of these cases.
I find it amazing how Skoda - who made truely terrible cars until well after the British brands all sorted themselves out - can get away with reinventing themselves yet Rover and Jaguar can't.
Make the classic 1980s joke about why Skodas have rear window heaters now and someone will definately tell you that you're out of date and that Skodas are now built using Volkswagen technology. Ok fine.
Jaguar was bought by Ford who taught them quality control and then by Tata who funded them and told them to get on with it but you can't mention Jaguar now without someone saying some ancestor had an XJ6 which leaked a bit, or indeed that it must therefore be a rebadged Mondeo.
Rover teamed up with Honda and did exactly what Skoda do. Actually that's not true. Skoda takes already incredibly bland and forgettable cars from Volkswagen and removes all the character and return to the market with something that makes a Toyota Auris look like the driving enthusiast's choice - and all is well. Rover took well engineered but a bit Japanese-styled Hondas and made them quite handsome. Then then developed the 75/ZT with BMW's backing. But it was still a Rover and therefore inherently crap in the eyes of the British because hte ex-next-door neighbour's great grandpa had one before the war and it needed new points and smoked a bit before the car was melted down to make a Cromwell tank.
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