RE: DiCaprio's Formula E team
Discussion
MX7 said:
As the amount of EVs increases, so will the amount of companies offering aftermarket batteries. I'm sure we're all familiar with how much cheaper these can be.
Definitely. Longer term I don't actually see it as an issue. There will be more packs, it will be more efficient to refurb the dead cells and the tech will be cheaper and better.
But at this current moment in time we can't factor this in as the details and timescales are unknown.
It's not an issue for new buyers as they can use a lease contract to lock in depreciation but used buyers won't have that benefit. However, at present the market is logically valuing the batteries at zero on a used sale so used EVs are looking a bit of a bargain.
But as you say, volume is important. It's why I think all the client subsidies are wrong and that if Govts really wanted a fair proportion of transport to be electric then they should have simply set rules that any firm selling above x number of cars a year in a market must also sell y number of EVs. Then the manufacturers would have worn the cost of the early adoption issues, not the users.
RemarkLima said:
McWigglebum4th said:
Technomatt said:
Unfortunately for them, it’s already hammering residuals and you may see the 8+ year old i3, ZOE, Leaf etc all being worthless.
Meanwhile all fossil fueled cars are worth exactly the same as a brand new one
Any nobody's worried about swirl flaps breaking off and lunching the engine, HPFP giving up at great expense, injectors going at potentially ruinous expense, it's all gravy baby!
oh, hang on... nope, the car is basically worthless after 10 years. ho hum.
Another nail in the long term EV coffin.
Technomatt said:
Difference is people will pay £4K for a decent, low mileage 8 year old BMW 3 series......... but nobody is going to pay £4K for an 8 year old i3 with its battery showing signs of degradation and a potential £5K imminent replacement cost.
Another nail in the long term EV coffin.
Low mileage?Another nail in the long term EV coffin.
How can a low milage car exist in your reality
Technomatt said:
Difference is people will pay £4K for a decent, low mileage 8 year old BMW 3 series......... but nobody is going to pay £4K for an 8 year old i3 with its battery showing signs of degradation and a potential £5K imminent replacement cost.
Another nail in the long term EV coffin.
Why wouldn't you on those figures?Another nail in the long term EV coffin.
£5k gamble is not a huge leap from an engine popping.
You'd then have near zero running costs and depreciation.
Plus, stick a new engine in an old car and the value doesn't go up. Stick a new battery pack in and old EV and it arguably will so that replacement battery pack isn't a sunk cost.
Technomatt said:
oyster said:
Technomatt said:
RemarkLima said:
Technomatt said:
Just look at the latest EV, the BMW i3 with it’s built in £10,000 battery change cost at the 8 year point. EVs with that built in short life expectancy and yet the unquestioning techno converts still just lap it up.
I rarely see a car older than 8 years old these days... *shrug*Edited by RemarkLima on Tuesday 10th December 10:32
An 8 year battery life kiss of death for an EV. The dismal residuals are there for a reason.
Still a disbeliever? Pop yourself onto AutoTrader and see what a used Twizzy, Leaf or Fluence actually sell for.
Still not happy, how about a link to an authoritative (ie non-Daily Mail
) journalistic source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/green-motoring...I'll answer it for you.
A sample size of 130-odd cars!!! Hahahaha, is that it? And from a time before EVs became mainstream like the Leaf, i3 etc.
Listen I'm no fan of current electric cars, but what I dislike even more is childish debates involving irrational hatred of a material object.
FFS it's just a type of car - what is your issue?!
DonkeyApple said:
Why wouldn't you on those figures?
£5k gamble is not a huge leap from an engine popping.
You'd then have near zero running costs and depreciation.
Plus, stick a new engine in an old car and the value doesn't go up. Stick a new battery pack in and old EV and it arguably will so that replacement battery pack isn't a sunk cost.
You justify paying £5K for a EV battery based on the very low probability an ICE engine may fail..... Also an ICE engine can be replaced significantly cheaper than £5K. £5k gamble is not a huge leap from an engine popping.
You'd then have near zero running costs and depreciation.
Plus, stick a new engine in an old car and the value doesn't go up. Stick a new battery pack in and old EV and it arguably will so that replacement battery pack isn't a sunk cost.
Predictability is the issue. The Li-ion battery follows a predictable degredation path to eventual replacement. At some stage that cost either has to be absorbed or it approaches a point where the remaining battery life makes the vehicle worthless.
Keep trying to justify that EV case.
oyster said:
Technomatt said:
oyster said:
Technomatt said:
RemarkLima said:
Technomatt said:
Just look at the latest EV, the BMW i3 with it’s built in £10,000 battery change cost at the 8 year point. EVs with that built in short life expectancy and yet the unquestioning techno converts still just lap it up.
I rarely see a car older than 8 years old these days... *shrug*Edited by RemarkLima on Tuesday 10th December 10:32
An 8 year battery life kiss of death for an EV. The dismal residuals are there for a reason.
Still a disbeliever? Pop yourself onto AutoTrader and see what a used Twizzy, Leaf or Fluence actually sell for.
Still not happy, how about a link to an authoritative (ie non-Daily Mail
) journalistic source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/green-motoring...I'll answer it for you.
A sample size of 130-odd cars!!! Hahahaha, is that it? And from a time before EVs became mainstream like the Leaf, i3 etc.
Listen I'm no fan of current electric cars, but what I dislike even more is childish debates involving irrational hatred of a material object.
FFS it's just a type of car - what is your issue?!
Your issue obviously goes beyond a reasoned input on known EV residuals.
Technomatt said:
You justify paying £5K for a EV battery based on the very low probability an ICE engine may fail..... Also an ICE engine can be replaced significantly cheaper than £5K.
Unless it's a Porsche 911 996 - plenty of engines going pop, and plenty paying over £5 for a new one... But what do they know eh?Technomatt said:
Still not happy, how about a link to an authoritative (ie non-Daily Mail ) journalistic source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/green-motoring...
You've quoted that article before, and it was comprehensively debunked, yet you just post it again on another thread. ) journalistic source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/green-motoring...I don't understand your motivation, but you really are incredibly tedious.
Technomatt said:
DonkeyApple said:
Why wouldn't you on those figures?
£5k gamble is not a huge leap from an engine popping.
You'd then have near zero running costs and depreciation.
Plus, stick a new engine in an old car and the value doesn't go up. Stick a new battery pack in and old EV and it arguably will so that replacement battery pack isn't a sunk cost.
You justify paying £5K for a EV battery based on the very low probability an ICE engine may fail..... Also an ICE engine can be replaced significantly cheaper than £5K. £5k gamble is not a huge leap from an engine popping.
You'd then have near zero running costs and depreciation.
Plus, stick a new engine in an old car and the value doesn't go up. Stick a new battery pack in and old EV and it arguably will so that replacement battery pack isn't a sunk cost.
Predictability is the issue. The Li-ion battery follows a predictable degredation path to eventual replacement. At some stage that cost either has to be absorbed or it approaches a point where the remaining battery life makes the vehicle worthless.
Keep trying to justify that EV case.
You serve little purpose as a result.
For example 'The Li-ion battery follows a predictable degredation path to eventual replacement.' Well so does the body and drive train of an ICE. The difference is the amount of historic data available that allows a fair value estimation.
I agree with you, as you know, that primary cost of the EV and also the unknown data for battery usage and replacement are distinct issues to be resolved or the concept is doomed to remain niche but it's all the other stuff you make up and spout, knowing it is lies is where you fall down.
RemarkLima said:
Technomatt said:
You justify paying £5K for a EV battery based on the very low probability an ICE engine may fail..... Also an ICE engine can be replaced significantly cheaper than £5K.
Unless it's a Porsche 911 996 - plenty of engines going pop, and plenty paying over £5 for a new one... But what do they know eh?Why didn't you use a Veyron as a representative comparison for a typical EV?
MX7 said:
You've quoted that article before, and it was comprehensively debunked, yet you just post it again on another thread.
I don't understand your motivation, but you really are incredibly tedious.
Hmm. Daily Mail, Telegraph, Republican lobby groups and right wing quangos. Motivation is pretty obvious.I don't understand your motivation, but you really are incredibly tedious.
Underscored by the need to lie and avoid rational discussion of the real issues.
Oh, and rants about Tarquins seems to suggest some class foibles also.
MX7 said:
Technomatt said:
Still not happy, how about a link to an authoritative (ie non-Daily Mail ) journalistic source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/green-motoring...
You've quoted that article before, and it was comprehensively debunked, yet you just post it again on another thread. ) journalistic source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/green-motoring...I don't understand your motivation, but you really are incredibly tedious.
He wants to buy a nice cheap 2 year old leaf
DonkeyApple said:
Technomatt said:
DonkeyApple said:
Why wouldn't you on those figures?
£5k gamble is not a huge leap from an engine popping.
You'd then have near zero running costs and depreciation.
Plus, stick a new engine in an old car and the value doesn't go up. Stick a new battery pack in and old EV and it arguably will so that replacement battery pack isn't a sunk cost.
You justify paying £5K for a EV battery based on the very low probability an ICE engine may fail..... Also an ICE engine can be replaced significantly cheaper than £5K. £5k gamble is not a huge leap from an engine popping.
You'd then have near zero running costs and depreciation.
Plus, stick a new engine in an old car and the value doesn't go up. Stick a new battery pack in and old EV and it arguably will so that replacement battery pack isn't a sunk cost.
Predictability is the issue. The Li-ion battery follows a predictable degredation path to eventual replacement. At some stage that cost either has to be absorbed or it approaches a point where the remaining battery life makes the vehicle worthless.
Keep trying to justify that EV case.
You serve little purpose as a result.
For example 'The Li-ion battery follows a predictable degredation path to eventual replacement.' Well so does the body and drive train of an ICE. The difference is the amount of historic data available that allows a fair value estimation.
I agree with you, as you know, that primary cost of the EV and also the unknown data for battery usage and replacement are distinct issues to be resolved or the concept is doomed to remain niche but it's all the other stuff you make up and spout, knowing it is lies is where you fall down.
Those EV residuals, sales, Li-ion degradation and replacement costs, current EV pricing, range anxiety, infrastructure costs, green issues, subsidies, taxation, EV flexibility issues etc are all relevant, accurate and valid.
What you seem to be more concerned with is not the underlying valid data and issues, but how it's portrayed or referenced. Your Daily Mail/Telegraph type complex.
The balance the argument, the EV is quiet and has a boutique cache. Happy?
The Crack Fox said:
Why do all EV related threads always descend into the same debate?
For the same reason as most threads on News&Politics. Political hijacking. The EV concept has been polluted from the outset by left wing extremists and so is a battle ground that attracts right wing extremists. Neither capable of objective views or reasoning.
However, at least on PH, away from general media, there are people who are genuinely interesting in seeing how this evolution in personal transport may evolve and what it can do, or not do, for a petrolhead.
Technomatt said:
Someone has to conduct an honest down to earth reality check for all those aspirational Sinclair C5 Syndrome type future biased wistful musings.
yes but this thread is about a race teamif it was about drag racing would you be banging on about the expected life span of a top fuel engine
DonkeyApple said:
The Crack Fox said:
Why do all EV related threads always descend into the same debate?
For the same reason as most threads on News&Politics. Political hijacking. The EV concept has been polluted from the outset by left wing extremists and so is a battle ground that attracts right wing extremists. Neither capable of objective views or reasoning.
However, at least on PH, away from general media, there are people who are genuinely interesting in seeing how this evolution in personal transport may evolve and what it can do, or not do, for a petrolhead.
Interesting.
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