RE: DiCaprio's Formula E team
Discussion
k.Technomatt said:
Have you ever pondered about only embracing technology that is efficient, flexible, empowers lifestyles and is cost effective? EVs fail on all counts.
I know that your knowledge of EV's and hybrids stems from Google rather than an actual study of the market, but for your info:Efficiency: Studies (inc my own, done for the governments Technology Strategy Board) show that currently (with the existing Generation infrastructure) an EV is on average 3x more efficient than a ICE powered vehicle, in terms of CO2/km and/or kWh/km. Used non optimally this falls to only about 1.2 as efficient, but optimally up to 8x as efficient (depending on drive cycle etc) The average value (3x) is based in actual UK car usage statistics.
Flexibility: Because EV's are fuel agnostic, they are significantly more flexible than ICE powered vehicles. With an ICE you have to give your money to SHELL or BP or whoever. With an EV, there a multiple routes to "fuelling" your vehicle. (Grid, local generation, local Solar/Wind, combined heat and power etc etc)
Empowerment: As legislation against pollutants and Co2 emissions continues to increase (which it will) EV's will allow private mass transport into city centres and other "Low emission" zones, where ICE vehicles are already taxed / prohibited etc
Cost effective: We are now pretty much through the first stages of "Early adoption" where costs are not comparable to a conventional ICE. Cars like the i3 are bringing the benefits of mass production to EV's and once that occurs the BOM cost for an EV is LESS than for an ICE (because they are much simpler mechanically). (10 years ago, you could have said the same about "smartphones" but if you had invested in those you would be a multimillionare now.........)
Obsolescence: Because the traction system in an EV is fuel agnostic (they don't care where there energy comes from to make the electricity they consume) they are actually a lot more "future proof" than ICE powertrains. In 10 years, current EV's could easily be retrofitted with an uptodat battery pack without completely re-engineering the rest of the car. Then there is the lack of service requirements. EV's don't need servicing, and that cost saving over 10 years will buy you a new battery!
Reliability: With only a couple of moving parts, EV's will be a lot more reliable that the extremely complicated and tightly tolleranced ICE required to meet modern emissions and efficiency limits. Current common rail diesel and direct injection gasoline engines can already "write off" a higher mileage second hand car if say the injectors need replacing, (or the high pressure fuel pump, the turbo, the gearbox, the DMF, the DPF, etc etc etc)).
It's easy to sit on your high horse and just spout out the multiple untruths and semitruths that a quick google throws up. But spend some time, and actually study the implications of EV's and it's clear that the future IS electric.
I agree with Max Torque.
Also if anyone had bothered to look before jumping on the bandwagon, they would find that they are not silent. Far from it, when they are working hard they sound like a jet engine.
I for one am looking forward to it, and will give it a chance before making an informed opinion.
Certainly looking forward to them racing around London, Beijing, and the like.
And there will be much more scope to make the racing interesting without the stupid ideas that F1 keep coming up with.
Also if anyone had bothered to look before jumping on the bandwagon, they would find that they are not silent. Far from it, when they are working hard they sound like a jet engine.
I for one am looking forward to it, and will give it a chance before making an informed opinion.
Certainly looking forward to them racing around London, Beijing, and the like.
And there will be much more scope to make the racing interesting without the stupid ideas that F1 keep coming up with.
We all know these things are of course extremely environmentally friendly. (And before you say it yes i know they actually are except for the waste, and possible meltdowns).
Yes EV's are more efficient over their life cycle but if investment was pushed into making ICE's better that would be the way to go IMO and to stop churning out so many bloody cars every five minutes and make the ones wey've got last longer. Can someone explain to me a comparative efficiency rating between an ICE and a motor for a given stored energy amount like lets say 50 litres of petrol so however many joules is stored in that. Although i'm not sure how you'd compare engine size to motor size?
Yes EV's are more efficient over their life cycle but if investment was pushed into making ICE's better that would be the way to go IMO and to stop churning out so many bloody cars every five minutes and make the ones wey've got last longer. Can someone explain to me a comparative efficiency rating between an ICE and a motor for a given stored energy amount like lets say 50 litres of petrol so however many joules is stored in that. Although i'm not sure how you'd compare engine size to motor size?
GranCab said:
EV's don't need servicing, and that cost saving over 10 years will buy you a new battery!
Rubbish !!! - so they have magic brakes, suspension, steering and electrical systems ??
er? Take a look at the service schedule of a modern car and see how much the "suspension" for example needs servicing?Rubbish !!! - so they have magic brakes, suspension, steering and electrical systems ??
Pretty much "servicing" a modern car (every 2 years or 20kmiles) is an engine oil change and a cabin filter!
EV's do have "magic brakes" btw, it's called Regenerative braking, and means the drivers will use the service brakes a lot less. There are some Prius's running around that have done 100kmiles on the original pads/discs!
Electrical systems don't have regular servicing either. Yer, if they fail you need to "fix" them, but an EV actually has a simpler loom than an ICE because the powertrain has many less sensors and actuators etc.
Already, companies have sprung up to rebuild and supply Prius battery packs at a much lower cost than from Toyota. They also are doing there own re-engineering of those packs to make aftermarket "plug in" versions with a higher energy storage capacity. As EV's become more popular, this will only increase.
Andy ap said:
Can someone explain to me a comparative efficiency rating between an ICE and a motor for a given stored energy amount like lets say 50 litres of petrol so however many joules is stored in that. Although i'm not sure how you'd compare engine size to motor size?
Gasoline typically contains around 42 MILLION joules of energy per kg. At 25degC it has a density of around 0.78kg/litre. Hence 50 litres of gasoline (typical fuel tank size) contains about 1,638 MILLION Joules of energy (453kWh). A typical modern car will "waste" approximately 82% of that (1,340MJ)An EV, when driven in the UK, on an "average" UK journey, will be 3x more efficient. This is demonstrated by the fact that even though the battery on an EV is only typically 30 kWh (Leaf = 24, i3 = 35kwh for example), and contains 15 times less total energy than a 50 litre fuel tank, these cars have a range only 5x smaller than a conventional ICE engined car (say 100miles vs 500miles)
Max_Torque said:
er? Take a look at the service schedule of a modern car and see how much the "suspension" for example needs servicing?
Pretty much "servicing" a modern car (every 2 years or 20kmiles) is an engine oil change and a cabin filter!
EV's do have "magic brakes" btw, it's called Regenerative braking, and means the drivers will use the service brakes a lot less. There are some Prius's running around that have done 100kmiles on the original pads/discs!
Electrical systems don't have regular servicing either. Yer, if they fail you need to "fix" them, but an EV actually has a simpler loom than an ICE because the powertrain has many less sensors and actuators etc.
Already, companies have sprung up to rebuild and supply Prius battery packs at a much lower cost than from Toyota. They also are doing there own re-engineering of those packs to make aftermarket "plug in" versions with a higher energy storage capacity. As EV's become more popular, this will only increase.
and for company car drivers - TAX EFFICIENT Pretty much "servicing" a modern car (every 2 years or 20kmiles) is an engine oil change and a cabin filter!
EV's do have "magic brakes" btw, it's called Regenerative braking, and means the drivers will use the service brakes a lot less. There are some Prius's running around that have done 100kmiles on the original pads/discs!
Electrical systems don't have regular servicing either. Yer, if they fail you need to "fix" them, but an EV actually has a simpler loom than an ICE because the powertrain has many less sensors and actuators etc.
Already, companies have sprung up to rebuild and supply Prius battery packs at a much lower cost than from Toyota. They also are doing there own re-engineering of those packs to make aftermarket "plug in" versions with a higher energy storage capacity. As EV's become more popular, this will only increase.
My Auris Hybrid saves me £3,200.00 a year in Tax alone compared to my Old A6 2.0 TDI. (+ it does 55Mpg on unleaded compared to 35mpg of diesel in the A6) This Loop-hole is going to be plugged but for the time being, its money in the bank and when it is plugged full EV for me please.
Worth a reply:
Efficiency: Studies (inc my own, done for the governments Technology Strategy Board) show that currently (with the existing Generation infrastructure) an EV is on average 3x more efficient than a ICE powered vehicle, in terms of CO2/km and/or kWh/km. Used non optimally this falls to only about 1.2 as efficient, but optimally up to 8x as efficient (depending on drive cycle etc) The average value (3x) is based in actual UK car usage statistics.Your efficiencies do not include the large extra CO2 penalty for the initial manufacture of EVs.
Efficiency is also measured in consumer usability. EVs are severely limited as an efficient useable product for the consumer.
Smart phones are an extremely poor analogy. Consumers have no desire to currently switch from an effective ICE to an ineffective EV. They see it as backward step in current capability. Smart phones systematically developed increased capability and effectiveness.
EVs have been around since 1888 and here we are 125 years later with expensive 70 mile range vehicles available for your proposed potential mass market consumption and still powered by expensive, heavy, and long term critical component life battery packs.
The EV remains hugely flawed and only currently survives due to Govt enforced subsidies.
Unfortunately for you, the greater public is already deciding the outcome and the future is currently Not pure Electric. Check the sales trends. They offer a harsh lesson. Theory, practice, aspiration, reality.
Max_Torque said:
Efficiency: Studies (inc my own, done for the governments Technology Strategy Board) show that currently (with the existing Generation infrastructure) an EV is on average 3x more efficient than a ICE powered vehicle, in terms of CO2/km and/or kWh/km. Used non optimally this falls to only about 1.2 as efficient, but optimally up to 8x as efficient (depending on drive cycle etc) The average value (3x) is based in actual UK car usage statistics.
Efficiency is also measured in consumer usability. EVs are severely limited as an efficient useable product for the consumer.
Max_Torque said:
Flexibility: Because EV's are fuel agnostic, they are significantly more flexible than ICE powered vehicles. With an ICE you have to give your money to SHELL or BP or whoever. With an EV, there a multiple routes to "fuelling" your vehicle. (Grid, local generation, local Solar/Wind, combined heat and power etc etc)
Are you being serious? Please look at all the consumer feedback on consumer anxiety over range. Sales are limited by the inherent EV inflexibility. Fact. Max_Torque said:
Empowerment: As legislation against pollutants and Co2 emissions continues to increase (which it will) EV's will allow private mass transport into city centres and other "Low emission" zones, where ICE vehicles are already taxed / prohibited etc
So, only legislation and enforcement will drive sales. Max_Torque said:
Cost effective: We are now pretty much through the first stages of "Early adoption" where costs are not comparable to a conventional ICE. Cars like the i3 are bringing the benefits of mass production to EV's and once that occurs the BOM cost for an EV is LESS than for an ICE (because they are much simpler mechanically). (10 years ago, you could have said the same about "smartphones" but if you had invested in those you would be a multimillionare now.........)
‘Early adopters’ (useless sound bite) of EVs are not going to change the single most important component of the vehicle. The battery pack and control modules. They will remain expensive and the limiting factor for the near future. The i3 is only cost effective for leasing business users. Many are now dubbing it a boutique product and even BMW admits 8 out of 10 buyers will go Hybrid i3 REX, not EV. Smart phones are an extremely poor analogy. Consumers have no desire to currently switch from an effective ICE to an ineffective EV. They see it as backward step in current capability. Smart phones systematically developed increased capability and effectiveness.
Max_Torque said:
Obsolescence: Because the traction system in an EV is fuel agnostic (they don't care where there energy comes from to make the electricity they consume) they are actually a lot more "future proof" than ICE powertrains. In 10 years, current EV's could easily be retrofitted with an uptodat battery pack without completely re-engineering the rest of the car. Then there is the lack of service requirements. EV's don't need servicing, and that cost saving over 10 years will buy you a new battery!
EVs have a built in time dependant major component replacement cost – the battery pack that is about 30-50% of the vehicle cost. You also conveniently forget battery leasing costs for your ‘maintenance free’ vehicle and over 10 years that is significantly more than conventional routine ICE maintenance. A blinkered argument. Battery leasing is a major cost and long term vehicle depreciation factor.Max_Torque said:
Reliability: With only a couple of moving parts, EV's will be a lot more reliable that the extremely complicated and tightly tolleranced ICE required to meet modern emissions and efficiency limits. Current common rail diesel and direct injection gasoline engines can already "write off" a higher mileage second hand car if say the injectors need replacing, (or the high pressure fuel pump, the turbo, the gearbox, the DMF, the DPF, etc etc etc)).
If you factor in the slow and inevitable performance degradation of the EV battery, the ability of the EV to reliably maintain its performance is a huge limiting factor. The huge issue of the maintenance, replacement and disposal of the battery packs seems to be conveniently ignored. Max_Torque said:
It's easy to sit on your high horse and just spout out the multiple untruths and semitruths that a quick google throws up. But spend some time, and actually study the implications of EV's and it's clear that the future IS electric.
There is a world of difference between research, developing technologies, emerging concepts and the subsequent commercialisation of effective technology meeting a consumer demand. EVs have been around since 1888 and here we are 125 years later with expensive 70 mile range vehicles available for your proposed potential mass market consumption and still powered by expensive, heavy, and long term critical component life battery packs.
The EV remains hugely flawed and only currently survives due to Govt enforced subsidies.
Unfortunately for you, the greater public is already deciding the outcome and the future is currently Not pure Electric. Check the sales trends. They offer a harsh lesson. Theory, practice, aspiration, reality.
Max_Torque said:
Andy ap said:
Can someone explain to me a comparative efficiency rating between an ICE and a motor for a given stored energy amount like lets say 50 litres of petrol so however many joules is stored in that. Although i'm not sure how you'd compare engine size to motor size?
Gasoline typically contains around 42 MILLION joules of energy per kg. At 25degC it has a density of around 0.78kg/litre. Hence 50 litres of gasoline (typical fuel tank size) contains about 1,638 MILLION Joules of energy (453kWh). A typical modern car will "waste" approximately 82% of that (1,340MJ)An EV, when driven in the UK, on an "average" UK journey, will be 3x more efficient. This is demonstrated by the fact that even though the battery on an EV is only typically 30 kWh (Leaf = 24, i3 = 35kwh for example), and contains 15 times less total energy than a 50 litre fuel tank, these cars have a range only 5x smaller than a conventional ICE engined car (say 100miles vs 500miles)
OR
As stated in the other post if an EV is driven at it's optimal (x8) thats equates to a range only 1.88 times smaller. If i've understood that correctly that means EV's have the Potential to equal the range of a 50 litre tank if the battery was 88% bigger (in capacity) and driven as well as possible. That's dented my cynicism.
Edited by Andy ap on Tuesday 10th December 16:09
Andy ap said:
That makes sense, so despite the battery storing less potential energy (-15 x) than the petrol equivalent it makes three times as much "use" of whats there. So does that mean that the battery needs 5x the storage potential to equate the range of the petrol tank.
OR
As stated in the other post if an EV is driven at it's optimal (x8) thats equates to a range only 1.88 times smaller. If i've understood that correctly that means EV's have the Potential to equal the range of a 50 litre tank if the battery was 88% bigger (in capacity) and driven as well as possible. That's dented my cynicism.
Both are correct really. For an "average" driver, battery capacity will have to at least triple before EV's can match the range of ICEs.OR
As stated in the other post if an EV is driven at it's optimal (x8) thats equates to a range only 1.88 times smaller. If i've understood that correctly that means EV's have the Potential to equal the range of a 50 litre tank if the battery was 88% bigger (in capacity) and driven as well as possible. That's dented my cynicism.
However, because the fundamental system efficiency is much much higher for an EV than an ICE, driven optimally, their energy consumption can be incredibly low. No matter how you operate an ICE, you cannot avoid the fact that only approx 22% of the fuel energy is being turned into usable tractive effort. An EV, driving optimally can turn something like 88% of it's battery energy into tractive effort!
Technomatt said:
You may be surprised to learn that the average age of cars in Europe is about 8 years old and the USA about 11 years old. In developing nations, a much older average.
An 8 year battery life kiss of death for an EV. The dismal residuals are there for a reason.
8 YEARSAn 8 year battery life kiss of death for an EV. The dismal residuals are there for a reason.
No chance
they won't last 8 months
I will buy your 6 month old i3 for the very generous offer of £500
Max_Torque said:
Technomatt said:
Worth a reply:
Sorry, not worth a proper reply. You have just stated your opinions, and not facts in each case.A few 'nasty' facts:
Renault battery leasing costs: circa £90 per month (Renault UK).
Typical 3 year EV depreciation: 80% (CAP).
EV battery replacement costs: LEAF total replacement circa £10,000 (Nissan).
VW e-UP UK list price: £24250 before Govt grant. (VW UK).
Technomatt said:
RemarkLima said:
Technomatt said:
Just look at the latest EV, the BMW i3 with it’s built in £10,000 battery change cost at the 8 year point. EVs with that built in short life expectancy and yet the unquestioning techno converts still just lap it up.
I rarely see a car older than 8 years old these days... *shrug*Edited by RemarkLima on Tuesday 10th December 10:32
An 8 year battery life kiss of death for an EV. The dismal residuals are there for a reason.
And can you confirm your opinion of what a 3 year old i3 will be worth? (just to come back here and see if you're right in 3 years time). After all, if you're confident of your opinion then you'll be able to do this.
Andy ap said:
Max_Torque said:
Andy ap said:
Can someone explain to me a comparative efficiency rating between an ICE and a motor for a given stored energy amount like lets say 50 litres of petrol so however many joules is stored in that. Although i'm not sure how you'd compare engine size to motor size?
Gasoline typically contains around 42 MILLION joules of energy per kg. At 25degC it has a density of around 0.78kg/litre. Hence 50 litres of gasoline (typical fuel tank size) contains about 1,638 MILLION Joules of energy (453kWh). A typical modern car will "waste" approximately 82% of that (1,340MJ)An EV, when driven in the UK, on an "average" UK journey, will be 3x more efficient. This is demonstrated by the fact that even though the battery on an EV is only typically 30 kWh (Leaf = 24, i3 = 35kwh for example), and contains 15 times less total energy than a 50 litre fuel tank, these cars have a range only 5x smaller than a conventional ICE engined car (say 100miles vs 500miles)
OR
As stated in the other post if an EV is driven at it's optimal (x8) thats equates to a range only 1.88 times smaller. If i've understood that correctly that means EV's have the Potential to equal the range of a 50 litre tank if the battery was 88% bigger (in capacity) and driven as well as possible. That's dented my cynicism.
Edited by Andy ap on Tuesday 10th December 16:09
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